Why do we assume a large return pump is needed?

[Herbert T. Kornfeld]

kkris,
depending on the brand you prefer, a pump that would turn over at least 100gph at 7 feet of head, up to say...300gph would be fine. You could use a single 1" bulkhead in the overflow...that would easily handle 300gph. With that 1" overflow you would prolly be able to use 3/4" piping. As for a pump, maybe a velocity T2 pump would be good...heck, a Velocity T1 would prolly do enough. As far as the skimmer is concerned, it shouldnt make a diff.

"Remote"? What do you mean by remote sump exactly? to the side, basement, etc?

One exception to all of this is the instance where one might be able to plumb a sump that is either behind or next to the main tank, and where the water level is not much lower than the main tank's. Right now I am setting up a 'semi-nano'...it consists of a 40breeder that has a baffle blocking off a section 6" from the side. So, of a 40breeder that measures 36lx18wx16h, I will have a built in sump that will be 6lx18wx16h...just enough to shoehorn in a pump, SCWD, heater, skimmer, and maybe a small light with some chaeto....along with the auto-top-off. This allows me to have next to no back pressure on any pump I use (Prolly going to use a hagen 901 powerhead) because the sump is built into the tank. This setup also allows me to run my returns through the bottom edge of the baffle, as well as the top, so additional closed loops or circulation pumps to get flow across the floor of the tank are spoken for. This setup allows for a 'high-flow' overflow, but without the noise, wasted energy, etc...of having a sump thats 4' below the main tank and needs a 'big-watt' return pump.

The reason I bring this up is because many of you out there might be able to run a sump that is like this. Imagine your sump instead of being below the main tank, but to the side of it, maybe hidden in a cabinet or closet, and with a water level maybe 6" below the main tank's water level. This means minimal head to pump back up, low noise, etc. The main things we are going for (if you are following and agree with this thread). My 60cube is plumbed like this. It has its drain go through the wall into another room (in the basement anyways, so no big deal), where the sump is on steel racking that places it 6-8" lower than the main tank. The result is an overflow that doesnt suck in bubbles or make noise, no durso needed. And the return pump must have something like 1' of head to deal with...so it is a hagen 901 powerhead. So for many of you who would like to maintain your high flow overflows, this is the way to do it while doing away with noise and high-watt pumps.

 

[kkris]

drain?

drain?

Thanks. By remote, I mean a dual basement setup of sump and frag tank with a 4 ft. drop from the dispaly. The pump has to be able to handle some head pressure. I could reduce the the 1 1/2 bulkhead to 1". No problem. Since it's already drilled what would I do with the second hole? Cap it, use it as a second drain, a second closed loop intake, or return?

 

[Herbert T. Kornfeld]

just use reducers on the current bulkhead to reduce it to 1" or less on both sides. As for the pumps I suggested, they should handle several feet of head and have just enough flow left.

 

[kkris]

Gen x PCX 30 with 65 watts and 400gph. How's that for an Energy star rating? Second overfow used as a backup, like DNA's tank. I think I've finally got it! Thanks Herbert,

 

[mikester]

That's nothing - the Blueline BL1100 I use delivers 1100 gph at 0' head and only uses 70w. I run it through my chiller, so after accounting for all the head pressure I am getting about 500-600 gph.

 

[samsfishnchips]

That's nothing - the Blueline BL1100 I use delivers 1100 gph at 0' head and only uses 70w. I run it through my chiller, so after accounting for all the head pressure I am getting about 500-600 gph.

do you mean

Model 100PX-X - equal to Iwaki MD40X Circulation rated
1270gph max flow
13 foot max head pressure
130 watts
1" MPT in/out
Footprint 5 x 14

or

Model 50PX-X - equal to Iwaki MD30X Circulation rated
1110gph max flow
13 foot max head pressure
90 watts
1" MPT in/out
Footprint 5 x 10

there is an insistency in the rating of power in different retailers, also that goes for the naming, panworld or blueline, ect, I highly doub it only uses 70w to deliver so much water, and I have seem the tag too,

sam

 

[ewatson]

While I agee that it is typically much more energy efficient to use a smaller return pump and a CL, I think that there are situations where a larger return pump makes sense.

In my system (work in progress) I am going to have 18' of head pressure on my return pump. I could either use an Iwaki 55 that would give me around 600 gl/hr for 1.8 amps or a Sequence Hammerhead that will give me around 3500 gl/hr for 2.9 amps (and enough flow to run a skimmer without another pump).

 

[mikester]

nunez1980 - I mean the BL1100. It's a Blueline NS series pump - it's a different line than the PanWorld's (which are also very good pumps).

http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merc...&Product_Code=BL-1100&Category_Code=DolphinEx

 

[samsfishnchips]

While I agee that it is typically much more energy efficient to use a smaller return pump and a CL, I think that there are situations where a larger return pump makes sense.

In my system (work in progress) I am going to have 18' of head pressure on my return pump. I could either use an Iwaki 55 that would give me around 600 gl/hr for 1.8 amps or a Sequence Hammerhead that will give me around 3500 gl/hr for 2.9 amps (and enough flow to run a skimmer without another pump).

true, but the thread is about flow throught the sump only, you have a special case of 18', mainly people only have like 5' and assume a large return pump is needed, a big pump for example will give you excellent flow with a eductor or penductor if size matters,

mikester, now you got my attention , how its the noise level, have you own the genx pcx-55, thinking on getting another for a pair of penductor, but the bl1100 sounds like a candidate, pressure rate and only 70w get out of town :strooper: , I need to change a mag12 to external, any info on it will really apreciated, thx

sam

 

[mikester]

I used to run a BL1100 side by side with a PanWorld PS150 and I think they were about the same noise level. The one I have now seems a little loud, but I think that's because it's replacing a Sequence which is pretty darn quiet.

EDIT - here's another link, scroll down to the bottom to see the NS series pumps and a flow curve:

http://www.championlighting.com/e/e...pumps.html?link=/Products/Pumps/blueline.html

If you don't need that much flow, check out the BL800 - 875gph @ 40w. :eek2:

 

[kkris]

Thanks Mike. I forgot about that pump. I think it may actually be the same pump though. TAAM, Blueline, Gen-x, Rio are all pacific coast imports.
I could use a Sequence for the return and to power the Beckett, but that would use 275 watts. Mike's Blueline for the return and a Mak4 would total only 180 watts. Slow flow thru the sump and efficient skimming plus energy efficiency are wht this whole things about.

 

[Herbert T. Kornfeld]

Hey, pumps are all over the place. Last year on the pond the Mag 12 finally croaked, so I bought a OASE 1500. The OASE, a german made pump, delivers 300gph more for 30watts less than the mag. AND, it seems to have just as much head pressure available. Leave it to those Germans! Usually, pumps that deliver more flow for less watts are ones that are for low pressure, high-flow applications...but thats not always the case. Sometimes its just great engineering.

 

[jgardnerzoe]

It is really a relief to hear people talking about this. As far as water flow I feel like I have plenty in my 220 gallon. I have 4 Tunze Streams - 6100, controlled with the 7095. But I was always worried that my return sump wasn't enough at 895gpm. When I added a 2nd it was too much for the tank and had to run it at about 1/3 in order to not overflow, a single box overflow in the corner wasn't enough.

I have my overflows redirected in to the main compartment of the sump and controlled to go to two different refugiums as needed.

 

[samsfishnchips]

It is really a relief to hear people talking about this. As far as water flow I feel like I have plenty in my 220 gallon. I have 4 Tunze Streams - 6100, controlled with the 7095. But I was always worried that my return sump wasn't enough at 895gpm. When I added a 2nd it was too much for the tank and had to run it at about 1/3 in order to not overflow, a single box overflow in the corner wasn't enough.

I have my overflows redirected in to the main compartment of the sump and controlled to go to two different refugiums as needed.

the purpose of this thread is not to make people "relief", like "Man thx god I had enough this thread proves it"

its to try to put into perspective that a big return pump is not the way to go most of the time, and having massive flow throught the sump is also not so great,

this is a big issue to many because they end up with issues with bubbles, extra noise not needed, ect because they "...assume a large return pump is needed?"

sam

 

[jgardnerzoe]

I apologize if I offended. My intent was only to say, thank goodness there are other opinions out there. Everything I had read thus far led me to believe I would never have enough flow in my current tank (even though the inhabitants seem to be doing fine).

I will gain what insight I will from the thread and did not mean to imply others should feel the same.

 

[samsfishnchips]

I apologize if I offended. My intent was only to say, thank goodness there are other opinions out there. Everything I had read thus far led me to believe I would never have enough flow in my current tank (even though the inhabitants seem to be doing fine).

I will gain what insight I will from the thread and did not mean to imply others should feel the same.

nah, no offence taken, your insight is also helpful, sorry if it came out that way, I apologize :idea:

sam

 

[scbauer]

Great thinking, HTK (and great avatar, too).

I was actually thinking about doing exactly what you did. I have been running an Iwaki MD40 on my 20-long for about a year now. While I like the flow, I have been thinking that the sump is just too small to handle that kind of flow and that my skimmer may not be running at optimal efficiency.

My plan (for the last month or two) has been to remove my Iwaki MD40 and put a much lower-flow pump as my sump return. I would then build a closed-loop system and use the Iwaki to run that.

I don't think this would do much if anything for my heat/electricity issues. If anything, my electricity usage and heat would go up because I would be adding another pump. The benefits would be more efficient skimming, quiet overflow, and slightly more flow.

I'm glad you started this thread. It is something I've been thinking about for a while now and will probably try in the next few months.

-Scott

 

[gnikoli]

Glad I ran across this thread. I've been contemplating how to redesign my 160 (Oceanic almost Reef Ready) with 40gal CPR294 sump. The sump has 800-900gph running through it using two Rio 3100's, one through a chiller and the other direct back to the tank. The sump has dual integrated skimmers and skimate never looks dirtier than dark green tea. That, plus what I see in the tank, leads me to believe that I could be doing a better job of nutrient export. I got the CPR skimmer because it was the only one that would fit under the tank which is a little lower than average and it does feed directly off of overflow water, but I just don't get the impression it has the potential to be a top performer. After some remodeling, I have since relocated everything to a larger space behind the tank and now I have options, at least in terms of the sump and skimmer, etc. The space around the tank does not permit considering any additional drilling or installing a real closed loop. I'm running Tunze Streams for circulation. I was thinking about running a Deltec AP851 directly off of the overflow. Based on what I have read in this thread, seems like flow through the sump should be tuned to whatever flow optimizes skimmer performance with little or no extra. If I ran all the overflow through the skimmer, I would have to come up with another circuit using the existing bulkheads (.75" & 1" in each back corner) to run a CL through the chiller. Maybe tieing the two .75" bulkheads together to gravity to the skimmer and use the 1" bulkheads, one in and one out, as sort of a mini CL to feed the chiller. Using Durso tubes, I would have about 3' of head for the flow to the skimmer. I could drill and plumb one of the overflow boxes to draw from a few inches below the surface and keep the mini CL flow isolated from the flow to the skimmer and sump. I was also thinking about adding an 80gal refugium and I'm not quit sure how to fit that into the equation. Any thoughts on any of this. Am I heading in the right direction?

 

[Herbert T. Kornfeld]

Sounds good to me so far...

 

[ReeferMonkey]

Herbert,

Hats off to you for bringing this all to our attention. Once again, I'm in the early planning phase of a new tank and have been considering the messy business of plumbing and circulation. You've provided a great deal of food for thought and from the sounds of everyone else's results with this new method, I think you are definitely on to something!

Great job!