Why do we dose and we do water changes?

[Amphiprion]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8450810#post8450810 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by PrangeWay
This is actually a very very common misperception and tends to be wildly inaccurate over time. It may hold relatively true if your tank is a few months old, but as your tank gets older they drop constantly..

Ex:
You're Element X is 1 ppm. It is very slowly used and at your 15% waterchange at 2 weeks it's at 0.95 ppm. You change 20% with a new salt mix at 1 ppm and it is now at 0.96 ppm. At the end of the month it is at 0.91 ppm and you do another 20% water change so it's pushs up slightly to 0.93 ppm. So you've lost 0.07 ppm or 7% even with your water changes. Now even using up 1% you'll lose um .8% a month or almost 10% over a year.

Anything that is being "used" in your tank will deplete over time even with water changes, because it's only returning it to a set level, not making up what has been used. Now I don't advocate dosing everything, we don't know what 9/10ths of it does and if we need it, or how to measure it. But do realize that as your tank gets older it's deficent in ALOT of trace elements, and nothing outside of 100% wc will fix that... It's something to think about...


PW

Very true and it does make you think. However, it is considering only water changes as the sole outside source of certain elements. In reality, we know that a good bit comes from foods and additives (sometimes incidental in the latter, otherwise purposeful). Without even those small 15% changes, those levels could potentially build up, despite depletion by other mechanisms. Unfortunately, this is all difficult, if not impossible to quantify, as you mentioned, due to the fact that we have no clue what may use some of this stuff and to what extent they use it. The safest bet, which is implied by your statement, is to approximate seawater as best as possible (whether we know what uses what or not).

 

[Philwd]

I believe that many tanks do not need trace elements. However many others do. It does depend on what you feed, stocking level, tank maturity, what salt you use and your husbandry. I found when I started using small amounts of Seachem's Reef Plus for amino acids my greens and pinks deepened. The TM A elements have helped the blues( I know the difference because I didn't start the TM for 3-4 months after the amino acids). I can't comment on growth as while I have had a major increase it could just as easily be due to better flow and tank maturity.

 

[RichConley]

Prangeway, the issue is, in a lot of cases, salt is WAY over what is trace in the ocean. IE 15ppm in salt when its 1.2 in the ocean. Every water change will add more than the whole tank should have.

We should be proving that we need something before we supplement it...

 

[naka]

I had this discussion w/ Tropic Marin rep at MACNA last month. He told me the reason for the a & k+ additives was to replenish our reef tank w/ trace elements that's being used up by our livestock and skimming. He specifically told me that even w/ 20% w.c. weekly w/ TM pro salt, the additives were necessary.

I dose A & K+, but only 25% recommend dosage. I'm like most people here in RC, I don't like to add something to my tank w/o knowing what I need. I'm just trying this sample bottles out to see if I notice any difference in color, growth, etc...

Thanks,

James

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8451508#post8451508 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by naka
I had this discussion w/ Tropic Marin rep at MACNA last month. He told me the reason for the a & k+ additives was to replenish our reef tank w/ trace elements that's being used up by our livestock and skimming. He specifically told me that even w/ 20% w.c. weekly w/ TM pro salt, the additives were necessary.

I dose A & K+, but only 25% recommend dosage. I'm like most people here in RC, I don't like to add something to my tank w/o knowing what I need. I'm just trying this sample bottles out to see if I notice any difference in color, growth, etc...

Thanks,

James

He was trying to sell you a product. You have to take that into consideration.


If theyre so neccessary, why do the majority of reef/sps keepers get away without using them?

 

[greenbean36191]

He told me the reason for the a & k+ additives was to replenish our reef tank w/ trace elements that's being used up by our livestock and skimming.

How are the livestock using up those trace elements? Are those elements really needed in the water in the first place?

People tend to assume that if it's in NSW it must be important to the animals. That's completely untrue in many cases. Heavy metals are among the trace elements found in NSW, but there is no harm in depleting them.

Also, most animals don't get their trace elements from the water anyway. Since they're in such low concentrations in the environment, absorbtion isn't a very reliable way to get them. Most animals get them from their food, where the elements have been bioaccumulated. Any guesses what does use the trace elements from the water?.... good old algae.

 

[Amphiprion]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8451594#post8451594 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by greenbean36191
How are the livestock using up those trace elements? Are those elements really needed in the water in the first place?

People tend to assume that if it's in NSW it must be important to the animals. That's completely untrue in many cases. Heavy metals are among the trace elements found in NSW, but there is no harm in depleting them.

Also, most animals don't get their trace elements from the water anyway. Since they're in such low concentrations in the environment, absorbtion isn't a very reliable way to get them. Most animals get them from their food, where the elements have been bioaccumulated. Any guesses what does use the trace elements from the water?.... good old algae.

Agreed. This has had plenty of scientific as well as practical evidence for most aquarists. I also agree on certain elements not being necessary, though present in seawater (i.e. Gold, silver, uranium, etc).

 

[IndyReefMan]

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/sept2004/feature.htm

 

[RichConley]

I wonder why theres so much manganese in all of them?


Notice something? Aluminum.... Its not useful to anything, and can cause problems. Its pretty prevalent in NSW, but the artificials leave it out.

 

[oldreefer76]

look at the lead in Catalina NSW, no wonder I lost my sps when using it

 

[mmotown]

guys I appreciate the informative feedback!!!!!