Why Picos?

Solitaryensis

New member
This thread isn’t intended a bash, by any means, so lets get that out of the way first. So...I have always been really interested in why folks insist on keeping picos. Over the years, they have gotten smaller and smaller and IMHO, less and less suitable for the creatures we all love to raise/take care of. It seems to me counterintuitive to push the hobby in this direction. I understand that folks want to see how far we can push our husbandry skills but, at least to me, it doesn’t make sense to push it in this direction (i.e. "I know what is ideal but let me see how far I can push 'less than ideal'") To me, its almost like saying "I know my dog needs to eat everyday but let me see if I can raise him to eat once every couple days and on less water than is ideal.

Although there are tons of different philosophies about what works and doesn’t work, I think the fundamentals of reefkeeping are pretty consistent across the board â€"œ whether it’s a 10 gallon or a 1000 gallon. We know we need "clean" water and stable parameters. In most picos I see, both of these elements seem, either overlooked or nearly impossible with the way the tank is setup.

To be honest, it upsets me when I see people trying picos that are half a gallon or a size where it doesn’t seem feasible or maybe even plausible to keep animals alive. I am sure that many of these end up failing but yet I continue to see threads come up about how its cool to try and see if you can get animals that come from the ocean to survive in a cup of water.

Again, this isn’t a bash by any means and I know there are SOME people that have maintained picos with some degree of success. I personally have never seen one. I just wanted some folks to chime in with their opinions and maybe pictures/specs of nanos that have been successful. Maybe someone can change my mind, but as it stands, I think its slightly irresponsible and in most cases, is motivated by something that is cheap, “cute,” or something that the owner “hopes” will thrive but in reality, has no idea if it will. I am not basing this on any one in particular but based on my experience reefing over the years and as a LFS employee for many years.

Again not a bash but soliciting ideas/opinions/comments from folks over here in the nano forum.
 
i kept a 1 gallon when i was on work leave in a hotel and really missed my tank. daily water changes and a couple snails and zoes where the only inhabitents, i was also driving home so everything was put into a 5 gallon bucket and brought home to my larger tank
 
Solitaryensis.... maybe every time you have tried one it fails? Something must have made you mad... Do we need to call dr. phil?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14452606#post14452606 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by FavaBean
Solitaryensis.... maybe every time you have tried one it fails? Something must have made you mad... Do we need to call dr. phil?

haha..are you serious? Not about the Dr. Phil part but your comment. Seriously, if you dont want to engage in a discussion, then no need to comment.
 
No, I haven’t. Im not sure what bearing that has on the discussion though. I didn’t say a pico could or would never work. I never said I failed at trying either. I was trying to have a discussion about what motivates people to push the hobby in, what I view, a counterintuitive direction, considering all we know about husbandry. I also wanted to see successful picos and specs about what their owners were doing. I certainly didn’t invite a suggestion that I should go se Dr. Phil nor did I mention or suggest that I tried and failed at keeping a pico. So…unless you own a pico and have anything positive to contribute to the thread, please move on.
 
Well.... I have a 6 gallon.... It has been up for a month.... you know if people just start a tank like that and do not know anything about them than maybe it is wrong but when people who have been around awhile start them then maybe it is ok... true I see something wrong just when people think this hobby is easy or for everyone....just talking to you cause it seems like no one else wants to waiste his/her time with you
 
The allure is in creating a mini bio-tope, similar to creating a model. Why build model air planes, they can't fly, they serve no practical function, yet we still are attracted to making them.

I understand your point with the animals and how a pico provides a less than ideal environment for almost every fish available, but it remains to be a case by case issue depending on what the owner decides to put in the tank. This problem exists equally in the larger tanks, that's why we have the "tang police".

To put it in perspective, almost any tank available is a poor environment for fish that are used to the ocean, how much they will notice it will depend greatly on the animal, but the problem scales to any size tank.
 
Agreed. I think you bring up some valid points...but

Model planes are very different from aquariums. Model airplanes cant fly so it doesn’t matter how big or small you make them. Size has no bearing on it because it doesn’t function - aquariums do. Plus, aquariums involve live things, not pieces of plastic. So, there is a relationship between utility and function. No such relationship with a model airplane. At least ones that aren’t made to fly.

I get your point and I understand the allure behind creating mini bio-topes but, I have rarely seen success stories. I attribute this to:

1 - The fact that they are "pet" projects where success or failure doesn’t really matter and its a way to DIY or to pass time until you get a larger tank.

2 - These are seen as cost effective ways to have a tank so investing the time and money into them would defeat the purpose. And we all know there’s no such thing as cheap and easy in this hobby.

Again, this is no bash, even though it might sound like it. Maybe I shouldn’t have said anything in the first place and just requested pics and specs of mature and successful picos.
 
Why bonsai? Clearly, we see in nature that the plants used would grow much bigger if they weren't snipped and manipulated. Instead, certain people wish to put them in shallow pans of dirt and trim them religiously. Probably not the ideal situation for the plant.
The art involved is the point. To make a beautiful display is gratifying. The same goes for picos. There is certainly a limit and I agree that it is irresponsible to start the project without the awareness of the time and effort involved.
The assertion that these are seen as a cost effective means of enjoying the hobby is a generalization. Some spend as much on their picos as they do on larger tanks and some people are as committed to making their picos into thriving environments as much as large tank owners. On the other hand, some people think that buying a big box to put salty water in is all they need to do to have a pretty tank.
The problem with picos is not the size of the tank, it's the committment of the owner.
 
i have a 3 gallon, and all i have in it is a pom pom crab, a couple of hermits and one snail. so here is the deal.

the only thing that i keep in there other then small inverts that don't move around much, would be corals such as zoas and mushrooms.

I agree that fish should be kept in a larger tank but i could say some obviously bad things about larger tanks as well such as..

the cost of electricity and water turns in to a major money pit in this hobby and we all know it. I top of with less than a cup of water a day, and do a half gallon water change weekly. in a larger tank such as a 90 gallon you do the math and figure out how much of a waste that is.

don't take this the wrong way, but it seems to me like you haven't taken the time to really look in to picos. From what i have read in this thread shows me that you have never tried an attempt to even build one so why start questioning methods that do work if done right?
I too get angry when someone who has no idea what they are doing buys a tank and kills everything the next day... but the one thing that you are leaving out are the people that do that with larger tanks as well. Its not the picos fault that the owner didnt do his research. The success stories are out there and you just have to look.

Like i said, if done right you will have a healthy bio-tope, and i agree with uncwalley on his artistic ideals. It takes someone with a ton of commitment to really pull one off, and when people run their mouths off (even trying not to be offensive) without truly understanding how and why people do it then there really is no reason why you should be bullying people around.

once again sorry if this got you mad... : )

were still friends right?
 
plenty of people here have kept successful Picos/nanos longer than some of the larger and more expensive TOTM's. Even those big ones get taken down for a better revisit...or just casue they are hard to maintain or simply the person was not ready for the long term commitment. Picos can and are successful...just search here and see some of the longer lived tanks.

But both have their place. Big and small. It's all a matter of taste. I have a 6 gallon...and while not a pico...it's a small nano and takes just as much care, if not more than my larger tanks...BUT I find that to be the joy of it...the constant attention. Yes it's still costly, but not as much as the bigger one.

Also I've had it set up since the 6 gallon JBJ first came out. and that was years ago...so I'd say it's just as successful and long lived as my larger ones. It too has had a couple of down spells but I've managed to fix the issues and keep it maintained for years. I like it.

Hope that answered some questions...at least from my point of view.
;)
 
I agree with the people that say some just go out and buy it and do not realize how much time it takes.... You have to realize that not everyone has bad ideas... some know what they are getting into and some dont...
 
I get what the OP is saying, but also think that he's off by saying that a pico isn't practical or even possible. I've had my 3 gallon tank running for about 6 months now and in that time have even had to frag my orange monti cap twice because it had outgrown the space. Now, if having to frag a coral because of its excessive growth is a sign of failure, then the OP is dead on with his comments. But I tend to think it is a sign of success.

My little 3 gallon has 27w of PC light...so way more watts/gallon than most other tanks. It also gets water changes at least 2 times per week, sometimes up to 4 times per week. The water changes are a snap to do. I can clean the algae off the glass, siphon out the detris, do my water change, and clean the whole outside of my tank/stand in about 10 minutes. Because of that, I'm much more inclined to keep up with it regularly. If I knew it was going to be a 2 hour commitment every time, I'd be lucky if I'd do it twice a month. That's not to say I don't spend a tremendous amount of time dealing with the tank (my wife can certainly verify this), but the regular maintenance is minimal.

I think this all boils down to the owner. Irresponsibly owners will destroy any tank they get their hands on whether it holds 1 gallon or 100 gallons.
 
Thanks for all the responses guys. I appreciate the discussion.

1 â€"œ I’ve never personally tried but I’ve been in the hobby for over 10 years and have worked at a LFS for a number of those so I have become very familiar with tanks of all sizes. Yes, my suggestion that they are very difficult to maintain doesn’t come from personal experience, per se, but it comes from my observations and my experiences. Again, I’m not saying its impossible just that I don’t see too many successful ones.

2 â€"œ I fully agree that, for the most part, its user error. My assertion is that, although, more often than not, with big tanks or small, failure comes from user error, that setting up a pico isn’t the best way to go, if you are looking to be successful. Why put an animal in a gallon of water when you know that there is a good chance it may not live, instead of putting it in 6 or 10 gallons of water, and knowing that you are setting yourself up for success?

3 â€"œ I get that its not economical and that some people cant afford the “right” equipment but that brings the ethical question into all this. Its akin to saying “I really want to own a dog but I can only afford to feed him once a week. Im going to get him anyways because that’s all I can afford and it’s a challenge.”

4 â€"œ For the posters that have said they have seen long term picos (some as long as TOTMs) do you have pictures or details? I would love to see a picture of a pico that’s been up and running for at least a year. I don’t know what you folks in the nano forum use as a measurement for a pico but as I am referring to them, im thinking 1-4 gallons. I know ive seen some on the forums that are even smaller.

5 â€"œ And yes, my assertion that this is a cost effective way of keeping a tank is a generalization. But I also said I know there are plenty of people that have been successful with picos. I imagine that those are the ones who didn’t shortcut and took the time, energy and money to make sure it was done right and set up for success.

Again, I would love to see pictures of successful picos and specs on them.
 
#3: I don't necessarily see it as the same thing. I know I can't afford the equipment for a larger tank(mine is only 10 gallons) But what I AM keeping in there currently(coral and hermit crabs) will either not outgrow the tank or will grow slowly enough that I can frag them off and give the frags to other people. I'm not going to try keeping a tang, or a lionfish, or even a clown in there. I don't think it is fair to get an animal that will most likely outgrow a tank and stuff it in there so I have the pleasure of watching it until it dies of stress from being in too small of a tank(possibly taking the entire thing out with it) or until I "downgrade" to get a smaller of the same species.

I can understand where you are coming from with a 1 gallon tank, but if a person keeps a 1 gallon with something small like zoas and maybe a tiny invert or two, it isn't really robbing them a huge bit of life as long as it is fed and cared for.
 
mine has been up for a couple of months now, and i will get some pics of it along with specs as far as water tests and all that good stuff later tonight when everything opens up, or tomorrow...
 
well like i promised here it is... the trumpet was pulled out of a friends tank who has had the worse luck with corals so im hoping it has a safe place until their tank is back up.

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Hey Audio,
Yeah, Ive seen your tanks and in fact, you were one of the people I referred to when I mentioned that there were in fact succesful picos out there. Unfortunately, yours is one of the few that I have PERSONALLY seen. I am hoping this thread dispells my own notions that most picos arent succesful...at least the ones that are 3-4 gallons and below.
 
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