Why so many fish keeping posts?

[Paul B]

It seems to me that there are so many posts asking how to care for a particular fish "after" it was bought. Copperbands and mandarins seem to be at the top of the list for advice, and both of those fish are not hard to care for but they do require just a little different methods to feed than something like a clown fish which will eat cardboard and still spawn. These fish should be fed what they were designed to eat and not "taught" to eat something you may have hanging around the house. Mandarins eat pods or any small "live" creature. Some will eat pellets or frozen food but that is not their diet and they will probably not live to their normal life span which is "probably" close to ten years or more. Copperbands live well over 10 years' but in the sea they eat worms as I have spent time with them underwater and that snout was designed to pull worms out of rocks. I always use live blackworms but earthworms are also fine if small enough. Frozen bloodworms are also fine if they are real "bloodworms" and not insect larvae that are often called bloodworms. Copperbands will also eat clams and clams are one of the best foods for them. Almost none of them will eat pellets or flakes and those foods should not be fed to anything in my opinion but especially copperbands and mandarins. Many people feed a mandarin frozen food and if it eats it, they feel that is a good thing. Well, it may be good for you, but that fish needs to eat every few seconds as it can not store that frozen food and it will just get pushed through a short tube that is has for a digestive system. It gets little nutrition from that as that is not how it was designed to eat. Mandarins are a very easy, disease resistant, little maintenance fish if they are put in the correct "mature" large enough tank that is not to sterile and is loaded with self replicating pods. If you have to add pods from a store, your mandarin will starve unless there are pods reproducing on their own. I have been keeping both mandarins and copperbands since the 70s and have no problems with either of them. If your mandarin is living on frozen food, it is also catching pods on it's own. An easy food to feed a mandarin is new born brine shrimp that should be offered every day in a feeder so the food stays near the bottom where that fish eats. This is all just my opinion of course.

Copperband and mandarins eating new born brine shrimp from a feeder.



Pregnant mandarin

 

[edinphilly]

I think a lot of the time it's because people find the forum too late. My own experience...

Kept freshwater tanks on and off. It was easy and I never was on a forum. Decided to get back into keeping a tank, browsed (specifically a LFS a not a big box) and did some googling and decided on a dwarf puffer. The day I went to buy it they were out and a seemingly knowledgeable person sold me a green spotted puffer for a five gallon FW tank. "They're the exact same only a bit bigger."

Well that obviously led to learning brackish, and then marine water. And led to getting hooked on a full mixed reef so I guess I'm glad it happened. And now I know to research everything ahead of time.

I do remote controlled cars as a hobby and the hobby shops are must more trustworthy for advice than LFS in general. Not trusting the LFS a is contrary to a lot of hobbies but something you hopefully learn quick here.

 

[reefgeezer]

Hi Paul. Many of us ask because trustworthy, up to date, and specific information is often not easy to obtain otherwise. I also think it wise to rely on the experience that others have gained by trial & error rather than making the error myself.

I kept Mandarins and Copperbands in the 90's also and really think it was easier then. I kept them all for 4+ years before tearing the tank down when the military decided I was too comfortable in my current duty station. The old school crushed coral undergravel filter bed, well seeded w/ pods provided by the "straight from the reef" live rock available, always had something crawling around for the Mandarins to eat, & the rocks had gobs of "wormy" things for the Copperbands to pick at.

 

[Paul B]

John of course an undergravel filter makes everything in this hobby easier which is why I run a reverse UG filter. It is loaded with life which makes keeping these types of fish so much easier to keep but you just can't convince people to use one as I think I am the only one who does. Maybe that's why my tank is the oldest one on here, I doubt it is my good looks, but it could be.

 

[Lavoisier]

John of course an undergravel filter makes everything in this hobby easier which is why I run a reverse UG filter. It is loaded with life which makes keeping these types of fish so much easier to keep but you just can't convince people to use one as I think I am the only one who does. Maybe that's why my tank is the oldest one on here, I doubt it is my good looks, but it could be.

Paul, I thought the success of your Mandarin and Copperband was the live brine shrimp feeder (my plan was to copy your design). I kept an undergravel filter in my freshwater tanks 40 years ago but I am unfamiliar with a 'reverse UG filter?" Will you elaborate please. By the way, I waiting to add my Mandarins and Copperbands until my "new" tank is mature (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2229879) and I'm pretty certain I will not be using the reverse UG.

 

[reefgeezer]

John of course an undergravel filter makes everything in this hobby easier which is why I run a reverse UG filter. It is loaded with life which makes keeping these types of fish so much easier to keep but you just can't convince people to use one as I think I am the only one who does. Maybe that's why my tank is the oldest one on here, I doubt it is my good looks, but it could be.

If looks mattered, I'd have trouble keeping a goldfish bowl. :wildone:

If I was starting over and if I could plumb the reverse UG without using visible tubing I'd consider it. I do like my sump & skimmer though. As it is, pods & stuff grow well in the "fuges" and in the live rock I have in the DT. I do have a little sand on the bottom now for some Wrasses, but it is mostly lifeless.

I have a fat & sassy Copperband in the tank now thanks in part to many here at RC that steered me to Blackworms and even some of your old threads. I wasn't concerned about his care once in the DT. I just needed help feeding him in the mostly lifeless QT. Now he gets Blackworms every other day, I also feed DIY freezer mush every day that includes clams, shrimp, Mysis, Cyclops, Oyster Eggs, Blood Worms, and even some flake food. He eats some of it and of course ignores most of it. He never ignores a Blackworm though.

I don't keep Mandarins. I don't think there are enough Pods in the system and daily feeding of live baby brine shrimp is not appealing to me right now.

 

[sreefs]

John of course an undergravel filter makes everything in this hobby easier which is why I run a reverse UG filter. It is loaded with life which makes keeping these types of fish so much easier to keep but you just can't convince people to use one as I think I am the only one who does. Maybe that's why my tank is the oldest one on here, I doubt it is my good looks, but it could be.

Paul
I think it is the super models that help you.:spin3:

 

[reefgeezer]

Paul
I think it is the super models that help you.:spin3:

Yea, anybody could do it if they had that kind of help/motivation.

 

[Paul B]

Paul, I thought the success of your Mandarin and Copperband was the live brine shrimp feeder

Lavoisier, I have been keeping mandarins since they invented the things and have never had many problems, they live fine in my reef with no additional feedings but now I have 2 mandarins, 2 blue striped pipefish and 2 red dragonettes that all eat pods. I not only want my fish to live, as that is easy, I want them to spawn because fish are not healthy unless they are in spawning mode and the additional feedings of brine shrimp keeps them spawning. The RUGF also allows pods and other creatures to live all the way through the gravel because it is all infused with oxygen. If you run a DSB there is no oxygen or water movement below the surface and you will not have anything living below the surface. If you do, it is not doing what it is supposed to do.
A RUGF is a regular UG filter but instead of the water being pulled up the tubes and down through the gravel, the water is pumped down the tubes and up through the gravel. The difference is that I filter or strain the water before it gets pumped down under the gravel. This also provides a slight amount of water preassure in the gravel slowing down the process of it clogging. But a RUGF must be run very slow or you will push to much detritus under there requiring you to stir the gravel more often. I now do that once or twice a year where I can reach with a canister filter or diatom filter.
There are no tubes visable in my tank.

I think it is the super models that help you.

Of course Supermodels help me get through my day and are always on my mind. Real Men only "think" about fish and beautiful girls and if they don't, well you can finish that on your own. :lol2:

See any tubes in there?

 

[Lavoisier]

Lavoisier, I have been keeping mandarins since they invented the things and have never had many problems, they live fine in my reef with no additional feedings but now I have 2 mandarins, 2 blue striped pipefish and 2 red dragonettes that all eat pods. I not only want my fish to live, as that is easy, I want them to spawn because fish are not healthy unless they are in spawning mode and the additional feedings of brine shrimp keeps them spawning. The RUGF also allows pods and other creatures to live all the way through the gravel because it is all infused with oxygen. If you run a DSB there is no oxygen or water movement below the surface and you will not have anything living below the surface. If you do, it is not doing what it is supposed to do.
A RUGF is a regular UG filter but instead of the water being pulled up the tubes and down through the gravel, the water is pumped down the tubes and up through the gravel. The difference is that I filter or strain the water before it gets pumped down under the gravel. This also provides a slight amount of water preassure in the gravel slowing down the process of it clogging. But a RUGF must be run very slow or you will push to much detritus under there requiring you to stir the gravel more often. I now do that once or twice a year where I can reach with a canister filter or diatom filter.
There are no tubes visable in my tank.


Of course Supermodels help me get through my day and are always on my mind. Real Men only "think" about fish and beautiful girls and if they don't, well you can finish that on your own. :lol2:

See any tubes in there?

I love your tank...any shots of the SuperModels?

 

[ca1ore]

It seems to me that there are so many posts asking how to care for a particular fish "after" it was bought.]

Easier to ask for 'forgiveness' than 'permission' ..... even here on RC. Of course, this thread strikes me as a poorly concealed effort to show off

 

[Whiterabbitrage]

You are awesome, Paul. I always enjoy learning from the master.
I also enjoyed the first picture you posted with the Randal photo bomb. Funny!

 

[Paul B]

this thread strikes me as a poorly concealed effort to show off

Yes, thats exactly what it is. Right now I am flexing my muscles in front on the tank and if there were someone here to take the picture, I would post it. And I even think a few new hairs grew on my head which I am also very proud of.

 

[Fishmommy]

I think sometimes, like in my case, the fish was sold to us with the seller swearing up and down that it was eating frozen with gusto. Then when it refused to eat in QT it's time to come up with plan B.

 

[Paul B]

I am sure they do as they are in the business to sell fish and it is better for them to sell you a fish that doesn't eat than to have it die in their tanks. Of course not all stores will do that but there is a huge loss of livestock in the aquarium business which is why small stores go out of business so often. It is not an easy business so you have to be a smart consumer and not buy that fish until you actually see it eat with your own eyes. I always tell the store owner, I will take that fish "if" it eats, then I take it.
If a store loses a $50.00 fish he has to sell 3 or 4 more of them to make up for the loss as he still has to pay for it.

 

[Fishmommy]

I accept that.

 

[Dan_P]

I have taken to heart your fish husbandry advice when feeding the Long Island Sound fish I collected this summer. It appears the Killifish is pregnant and the two Pipefish are stout little ropes that will take defrosted mysis from my fingers. Other fish are also doing well.

 

[Paul B]

Great going on those pipefish. The killi's spawn often which is why there are so many of them

 

[mattgumaer]

Maybe LFSs need to sell unhealthy fish and coral to stay in business. I've got a 75 gallon planted tank that I've probably had for 8 years now and I haven't bought much of anything for it in years. The fish don't die so I don't buy new ones and I throw out clumps of plants that I trim every week or two so I don't buy new ones.

I have a 180 gallon reef now that is probably fully stocked (or darn close to it) from a fish perspective and maybe not too far off from a coral perspective. If nothing dies, which has been true so far with the exception of one coral frag, knock on wood, what is the LFS going to sell me besides salt and frozen food (I also buy two-part from BRS)?

Maybe the best business model for the LFS is to sell unhealthy fish/inverts/coral to people who can't/won't care for them and then repeatedly sell them replacements. FWIW, I've been in the reef hobby about 1 3/4 years and am by no means an expert but I've had one copperband (about 8 months) and one mandarin (about six months) and both seem to be doing well. I realize this is too early to call it a success story. I feed the copperband a fresh little neck clam every day or two and the mandarin is the only fish I have that relies heavily on pods in a 180 with sump/refugium so I think that is self-sustaining, despite the frequency with which he picks off pods.

There is a guy I've seen come into the LFS three or four times and drop 500-600 at a time on livestock, mostly fish and inverts with some, relatively inexpensive, coral. Nothing super expensive so he gets a lot of fish/inverts/coral for his money. One time I asked him how big his tank is, thinking he must have a monster tank in order to add so much livestock at one time and to sustain that much livestock generally, after seeing him do this two or three times. He told me he had a 65 gallon reef, seemingly barely big enough to house one of his stocking trips, let alone the three or four I have seen him make (I'm sure there were many more I didn't witness). He is probably a much more valuable customer to the LFS than I hope to ever be.

If every fish the LFS sold lasted 5-10 years or more and the coral essentially forever, how long would it be in business? One the one hand, the LFS needs its customers to feel successful (or they'll likely give up the hobby completely) but, on the other, too much success means declining sales as people's tanks get fully stocked, if they don't frequently upgrade (my 180 built-in is the end of the line for me I think).

So, maybe the LFS's success relies, at least in part, on the hobbyist's failure? Sad but true, I think.

Matt

 

[Paul B]

Actually LFSs rely a lot of new hobbyists as you know what it costs to set up a reef tank, especially if they also buy supplements and test kits. I, like you don't spend much on livestock as my fish almost never die unless it is from old age, I give them away or donate them to a public aquarium. I do buy live worms, some frozen food and occasionally salt. I also do some favors for my favorite LFS by making them baby brine feeders and fixing whatever breaks for them. I am not a good consumer to keep a LFS in business especially when I espouse feeding clams from a supermarket. I can't change my ideas just to help out a store. I do recommend stores that have good livestock, good prices or nice people working there. I think the biggest downfall of LFSs is sales people who are not knowledgeable or personable. But for minimum wage, they are not going to get many West Point Graduates and most semi intelligent people have better paying jobs so a stint at an LFS is usually short lived unless you are a retired person and are just there because you really like it.