Wrasse prophylactic QT question

[kaiboshi]

I've got a few fish in QT right now, among them is a Oxycheilinus bimaculatus. I've read about people having issues QTing wrasses before but I can't recall exactly WHY the wrasses weren't making it through QT. When I QT I prophylatically treat with praziquantel and cupramine. I already went through the first round of praziquantel but I'm a little iffy about using the cupramine without first confirming that I won't simply be poisoning my new wrasse. Does anyone have any ideas?

 

[MrTuskfish]

I never say "use Cupramine, absolutely", that's too controversial (still). but I keep wrasse from at least six genera and all have been treated with Cupramine in my QT; at about .35-.40ppm. I always treat new fish at a lower dose than the .5ppm recommended on the bottle. Just my opinion. Strictly your call.

 

[kaiboshi]

Thanks for the quick reply. I've had great success with a combination of prazi and cupramine in the past and I want to go with what has worked for me however like I stated I don't want to kill the fish. I don't really know how common these particular wrasses are but if they are anything like the cheilinus/pteragogus wrasses in my area then they are a bit more on the rare side. This specimen is a nicely colored male ~4" long and I'd hate to make a mistake.

Have you treated Cheilinus wrasses with copper before?

I'm now on the fence between Cryptopro (greg's recommendation) and cupramine. Cryptopro seems too good to be true from what I've read here on RC but Greg knows his stuff. Decesions, decesions.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Cheilinus is the red-breasted wrasse, right? I've never kept one. I won't argue with Greg about anything. I think both Cupramine and quinine sulfate (Cryptopro) have their fans. But, if a fish dies while being treated with Cupramine; you can bet the farm that the Cu will be blamed. IMO, copper-fear is way over-blown. The old myth that silicone absorbs copper, making it poisonous forever, just won't die. I've gotten so used to Cupramine and know what to expect and how to handle the unexpected, that I just won't change what works. My only concerns, and they're minor, about QS: Its hard to keep in suspension, according to a few tech-types I spoke with and its impossible to test for. I'm also not convinced it does a good job with velvet and all the other non-ich parasites that Cu kills. , it may, I just don't know. In any case, I think preventative treatment is a real plus and isn't done often enough. Go with whatever you're most comfortable with.

 

[kaiboshi]

Cheilinus is the red-breasted wrasse, right? I've never kept one. I won't argue with Greg about anything. I think both Cupramine and quinine sulfate (Cryptopro) have their fans. But, if a fish dies while being treated with Cupramine; you can bet the farm that the Cu will be blamed. IMO, copper-fear is way over-blown. The old myth that silicone absorbs copper, making it poisonous forever, just won't die. I've gotten so used to Cupramine and know what to expect and how to handle the unexpected, that I just won't change what works. My only concerns, and they're minor, about QS: Its hard to keep in suspension, according to a few tech-types I spoke with and its impossible to test for. I'm also not convinced it does a good job with velvet and all the other non-ich parasites that Cu kills. , it may, I just don't know. In any case, I think preventative treatment is a real plus and isn't done often enough. Go with whatever you're most comfortable with.

Cheilinus wrasses are also called splendor or maori wrasses and yes, the red breast is a member of that genus. Giant, toothy, face painted looking maniacs. Actually I don't think all of them are maniacs but I'm not sure. The reason I asked is because I think the Oxycheilinus bimaculatus is very closely related to the other Cheilinus wrasses just much smaller.

Honestly we're on the same page regarding copper myths and preventative treatment. I was wiped out COMPLETELY on three seperate occasions in the span of about a year because of either a complete lack of QT or improper QT procedures. After the third time I did a lot of research while I let my tank fallow. I decided to go with the fairly common combination of praziquantel (2 rounds) and cupramine. I eventually learned to leave the cupramine @ 0.5 for at least a month at 80 degrees and then observe for about 2 weeks afterwards and I haven't had any kind of nasties in any of my tanks since.

So, needless to say, I'm a bit anal about my QT regimen. My tanks are almost at capacity in terms of stock and I'd REALLY hate to introduce ich with the last fish I add.

I think what I'm going to do is fatten up the wrasse (I always do this anyway) and then give the slightly lower dose of cupramine a try.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Sounds like a plan. You probably know this stuff, but will share some Cu info. With copper, fish should always be eating before treatment starts; if they stop feeding, its often the 1st sign that they aren't tolerating it well and you can remove some Cu for a few days and gradually increase. I like to start Cu at no more than .2ppm and very slowly (over several days) increase to .35-.40; .50 won't hurt most fish, but I don't think its necessary. I have never seen ich or velvet survive above .4. Many Cu test kits don't work with Cupramine; Salifert or SeaChem do. Never use an ammonia neutralizer (Prime, Amquel, etc) with copper---deadly compounds result. Many ammonia tests don't work with Cu either; the plastic ammonia-alert badges do. If you have the QT cycled, great. Ammonia is a PITA for people who aren't ready with a cycled filter sponge or another plan. With all this, QS looks easy; but Cu is easy too---just lots to know. BTW, SeaChem, mfg of Cupramine, has excellent tech support and I use them often in many areas; they offer real info, not just sales support. Here's more than you want to know about Cupramine, the FAQ are very good:http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Cupramine.html