Zeolite Comparison

[reefswimatl]

I've been running Elos Filtra-M in my reef to create a nutrient-low environment.
Has anyone tried Brightwell, Neo Zeo ?

Is it a direct 1 for 1 replacement?
Are the results similar? Better?

The Neo Zeo is about 1/2 the price per pound.

Any recommendations would be great!

 

[HighlandReefer]

reefswimatl,

Back To Reef Central


It is hard to compare the two products when you do not know what is in them. I rather doubt they would directly correlate exactly.

Does your definition of a nutrient-low environment mean low phosphate and low nitrate?

 

[Henry Bowman]

I run traditional Zeo. I have seen a thread on Brightwell's new product(s) and belive that they "may be" similar. The folks using the Brightwell products are or seem to be having good results. While similar, I believe the systems to be basically the same. One may be more effective than the other but who knows. ZeoVit says that their zeolith rocks are a special propietary rock and that all zeolith rocks are "not the same".

Your question is interesting and has been asked but I know of no-one who has tried mixing the systems on this forum or ZeoVit's forum.

 

[reefswimatl]

Thank you both for the reply.

Cliff....yes, one of the primary benefits of the zeo is to rapidly remove any ammonium ions before they have a chance to enter the nitrogen cycle. I believe phosphates are bound as well. Supposedly the surface of the media is also good for growing beneficial bacterial, although I don't completely understand the value in doing so in a tank that is already full of established live rock and DSB. Another side effect is much improved coral coloration, which I've also observed.

Henry, my goal is not to mix the systems (except perhaps initially during a transition), but rather switch to the Neo Zeo. The main driver is simply cost savings...assuming I can achieve similar results.
The products certainly do not look the same...the Elos is much finer in size (about 1-3 mm pieces), whereas the Brightwell is more like 9-15mm (much larger). So pound for pound, the Elos has much more surface area. From the little I know about chemical adsorption, it seems the larger surface area would be the better choice as there are more receptor sites for the binding and uptake , but again, much of this is a mystery and not well explained anywhere.

 

[Henry Bowman]

I am interested in your findings as you move ahead.

I believe the issue with the bacteria is that with any of these systems, the bacteria being introduced is not natural to the system. The specific bacteria being used and supported through carbon dosing are more agressive at consuming waste (DOC's) in our systems.

 

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !


The zeolithic media of the various proprietary product lines are not the same, however, a fractrional mixing of the various media is an intriguing concept. I've run trials with the Korallen Zucht, Brightwell, and Elos zeolithic media ... they each demonstrate differences in performance.

There is no evidence whatsoever that the bacterial strains of the various product lines is more efficient at nutrient uptake ... either in comparison to each other, or to the strains from live rock of different geographic sources. Indeed, the identity of the various bacterial strains (from whatever source) that become established in a "typical" reef system are largey unidentified. Similarly, what is, or is not, a "naturally" occuring bacterial strain within a captive reef ecosystem is largely undefined.

Unless, of course, one believes in "special" bacteria ... :lol:

The notion that zeolithic media is able to demonstrate meaningful ionic exchange involving ammonia/ammonium in a cation rich solution (like seawater) beyond 96 hours is simply incorrect. There are numerous research papers documenting the rapid exchange degradation curve. Boomer and I have been posting them on RC for years (... with credit to Boomer for posting the best ones first).

The notion is, however, excellent marketing ...


HTH
:thumbsup:

 

[Reefer08]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15447746#post15447746 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mesocosm
Greetings All !


The zeolithic media of the various proprietary product lines are not the same, however, a fractrional mixing of the various media is an intriguing concept. I've run trials with the Korallen Zucht, Brightwell, and Elos zeolithic media ... they each demonstrate differences in performance.

There is no evidence whatsoever that the bacterial strains of the various product lines is more efficient at nutrient uptake ... either in comparison to each other, or to the strains from live rock of different geographic sources. Indeed, the identity of the various bacterial strains (from whatever source) that become established in a "typical" reef system are largey unidentified. Similarly, what is, or is not, a "naturally" occuring bacterial strain within a captive reef ecosystem is largely undefined.

Unless, of course, one believes in "special" bacteria ... :lol:

The notion that zeolithic media is able to demonstrate meaningful ionic exchange involving ammonia/ammonium in a cation rich solution (like seawater) beyond 96 hours is simply incorrect. There are numerous research papers documenting the rapid exchange degradation curve. Boomer and I have been posting them on RC for years (... with credit to Boomer for posting the best ones first).

The notion is, however, excellent marketing ...


HTH
:thumbsup:

Im a lil confused with what your saying could you please just clarify. Are you saying that zeolith media doesn't work?

 

[GTR]

I could dig back 4-5 years.

But in short as someone said at the time...

It doesn't work like you think it does. :lol:

SteveU

 

[Cantonesefish]

Umm... could you please clarify ????

 

[reefkeeper2]

I believe he is saying that after 96 hours, zeolithic material loses almost all of it's ability (in salt water) to absorb ammonia.

 

[addicted2reefin]

bassically what they are saying, and it does make sense, as zeolite materials absorb much more than ammonium/ammonia, is that the zeo companies are marketing that their "magic rocks" are absorbing ammonium and ammonia before it can break down in ur system, which is only partially true, as it only happens for a few days, and if i am correct that u change ur media only every month or few. the systems really work as in that, the bacteria strains colonize the media, and grow prolifically due to the carbon dosing, and the semi high nutrient enviroment, thus in turn bringing down the nutrients in the system. this can be achieved with same results using prodibio, or better yet, microbacter-7 and vodka!

 

[Reefer08]

Yes the zeolith media has two functions

1. To absorb ammonia/ammonium before it is able to break down into nitrates
2. It is a location for bacteria to colonize upon, thus the reason why we shake the stones twice daily. To release the bacteria on the zeolith, also feeding out corals.


This is all great in theory, but does it really do what it says? I can clearly see a cloud of "mulm" or bacteria release into the aquarium after shaking the stones.

Does this really absorb ammonia/ammonium?

 

[slow_leak]

sounds to me like this can be boiled down rather easily to a poor mans dosing system. Just take a dosing timer such as Bulk Reef Supply Drew's Doser. In a jar such as a 1/2 L vodka bottle make a 1% solution of Vodka in DI and add daily. As nutrient levels drop remake the solution with weaker concentration or lower dosing time. As cyano might appear simply start to add potassium nitrate up to 1-5 ppm.

Every two weeks add prodibio digest manually for good luck, or even Prodibio reef booster.

What would be interesting on proving the mechanism is to add something inert like lava rock or Bulk reef supply Mounting rubble from ECO-ROX in a reactor chamber. But that's another story...

 

[jer77]

I am one who is still discovering the uses of carbon dosing and zeoliths. I believe there is something worth understanding and utilizing from them. I have tried many different brand name types of carbon and bacterial dosing. I have recently began to use zeoliths in the form of Neo Zeo and plan to try using different types like ZeoVit in combination. This is all great to just state what I'm using, but to give opinions causes problems I believe.

The #1 Problem: There are very few ways of actually coming to any well founded conclusions when using proprietary products for purposes that are loosely connected and can only be indirectly factually verified to be effective by the common aquarist with test kits.

This is why I believe we need more direct factual evidence similar to what mesocosm shared. This proves to be hard for the common aquarist to do when it comes to discovering the true similarities and differences between zeoliths. Not to mention trying to study zeoliths with bacteria.

So, I think to test different combinations of zeoliths, some basic and simple experiments and observations should prove to be more helpful than haphazardly mixing them in different combinations and looking for or testing for changes. I believe this because there is absolutely no information or facts about these specific zeoliths to base any further conclusions on.

I did say I think there is much to be learned from these ideas and products. I just think there are lots of unsubstantiated claims and methods.

 

[recife111]

Today zeolite is zeolite, just like many carbon for example, some carbon has low po4 and others dont, the same goes for zeolite,


I use tries Tunze zeolite, fauna marin, zeovit.

Basically they are all the same.

 

[slow_leak]

I liken this whole system to the Dupla system that was run years ago by freshwater aquarists to grow plants. It included many things like undergravel heaters, and many doing solutions. In the end the successful aquarists found a recipe that worked on their own. It involved a solutions of potassium nitrate- stump remover, magnesium sulfate - epsom salt, potassium sulfate, and a trace mix for iron.

Now the neozeo, zeovit, and prodibio may have worthwhile products to sell, but if Bulk Reef Supply sold the rocks - if necessary, then anyone could make a vodka, sugar, vinegar solution. My own variation uses this solution dosed daily then just nitrates spiked to reduce cyano as necessary. I just increased feeding corals instead of amino acids so far. I will just add them after a period of time to see a real effect instead of a recipe follower. I do use prodibio digest and bioptim mostly because LFS had them 45% off trial display case. It did not sell well.