Zoanthid club proposal for MTRC members only

rsteagall

New member
Hey everyone!!! I've been working on this idea for several days now. I'm introducing a proposal to MTRC members that should increase circulation of zoanthids, increase the variety of zoanthids available relative to what the market allows, and create an independence of what the market drives zoanthid pricing to be.

This proposal is a work in progress(WIP) and is asked that you treat it as such. I do ask that if you are interested in my ideas that you read the proposal in its entirety. I also welcome your comments in this thread.

Here is the proposal:

http://12.153.17.195/zoanthid_club_proposal.doc

Thanks,
Ryan Steagall
 
Actually I haven't found that to be true at all. I have PHEs, safecrackers, tubs blues, eagle eyes, and dragon eyes (plus others) and they all grow fast as hell if you ask me.

I do agree though that getting big corals in and chopping them up is a good idea too.
 
Chopping them up is good and would work, but to get 10 different frags of 5-10 polyps you'd normally have to spend at least $150-$200 too.... thus my proposal.
 
I like the idea, but I think it is going to become very difficult to manage. Something that may help is for some frags to be sold to make the money needed for permanant equipment. That reduced the need to track who owns what and what if they leave, etc. From the selling forum (or through trades locally), you could pick up most of the equipment for relatrively low dough. IMO/E, you shouldn't need a skimmer. Surface skimming is essential, but if there is good surface agitation, zoas don;t need one. I ran Jenn's 20long with a CPR BakPak for a few years. The water had a stench that crept into your pores for hours and no soap could remove it. I put a surface skimmer (hooked up to a Magnum 250 HOB) and removed the skimmer and it has never looked better. Same with the 5.5 at work. The surface skimmer is the best $10 I've spent on a tank. If it has an overflow, that covers that, though.

Something to add is a top off. That is the biggest pain in runnign multiple tanks. A rubbermaid tub, small ph and a topoff switch, and you're good to go.

The most attention would be required around treating the corals prophilactically before entering into the system... One big potential issue is that one nudi or spider in the frag system and many many hours will be needed to rid the pests. They could decimate the entire tank in short order... Kinda scares me a little, but I'm paranoid of pest these days (though I've succesfully steered clear of the zoa pests, just have had everything else)...

I have, however, gone in with people on another website on Ebay auctions to get some of the cooler zoas that go for high dollar. The person who heads up the auction then holds the zoas in their tank until they are fraggable. Then the person frags them for those who put in and sends them out. There is some risk involved, but usually on the low end, monetarily. That doesn't put all eggs in one basket. Similar concept that is a bit easier to track.

Something like this may be easier to manage as more of a trading club where we could discuss locally who has what and wants what. I have graduated from the cheaper zoas into a wallet slimming spiral (Jenn says downward) to the more expensive ones (the $20-50 per polyp zoas). Without trades, there is no way I'd be getting these corals, though. That's where the Ebay auctions can come in handy. Though you have to watch for the chopshoppers and the tricks they play. We have been chronicallying several active Ebay sellers and it seems that there are several pahntom bidders that bid to raise the price, then pull the bid after someone bids higher. They also have sent messages to people saying that they know that someone else has bid X amount and that they are dropping out, only to try to goad people into bidding higher. Another thing they'll do is buy from one person and get the winning bid way up there (working in conjunction with the seller). Then the 'buyer' (who is in bed with the original seller) turns around and sells them a few days later because it is still fresh in everyone's mind how high they went for two days prior. This also drives the price per polyp up on certian morphs. These people have no scruples. Karma will have her way with them.

Anyway, off the soap box on that subject. Hopefully, you'll find some of my suggestions helpful and will likely throw others out...
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8031362#post8031362 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rsteagall
Chopping them up is good and would work, but to get 10 different frags of 5-10 polyps you'd normally have to spend at least $150-$200 too.... thus my proposal.

But with 10 frags at $200 for some nice zoas, everyone has $20 into it and should walk away happy with nice trade bait for something else.
 
Idealy, yes, the main one or two people managing it would own all the equipment and I may purchase it. The only thing lacking really is in-tank pumps and lighting. Yes lighting is sem-expensive, but I'd rather pay for it out of pocket instead of selling frags to pay for it. The idea was definitely not intended to start selling frags to fully support the hobby. Although I'll gladly take this into consideration, especially if we don't get the participation we expect

A trading club also circumvents the whole idea of the proposal. The proposal is very Socialistic in design. A trading club creates a market that could still limit availablity and drive prices.

All the technical advices you mention will definitely be noted and thanks for the other suggestions.
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8031565#post8031565 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rsteagall
A trading club creates a market that could still limit availablity and drive prices.

If it were held as strictly a trading club (no sales), then it would maintain the 'value' as what the value is to someone else by way of trade. Just throwing out ideas.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8031424#post8031424 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gflat65
But with 10 frags at $200 for some nice zoas, everyone has $20 into it and should walk away happy with nice trade bait for something else.

While this may work and make people happy, the proposal is quite different than this. The proposal would increase the rate of *different* zoas attained by each individual would be multiplied by the number of participants. The suggestion above gets you only one type of zoa for $20. I know the fee hasn't been figured out yet, but I wouldn't expect it to be more than $20 per person participating.

Thus if the fee is $20, then after the grow-out... I should have n different zoas due to the veriety donated by each individual.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8031585#post8031585 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gflat65
If it were held as strictly a trading club (no sales), then it would maintain the 'value' as what the value is to someone else by way of trade. Just throwing out ideas.

That sounds a bit better, but I would still have concerns about circulation limitations. If there was complete order in a trading club, everyone would get one of everything available to trade. More like what would happen is an elite few would get all the trades and then the trading would stop.... but I'll make note of this as well. Thanks for the suggestion.
 
For those of you that don't have Word 2000 installed, you may see the bullets as sequential numbering inside an editor such as the standard Wordpad. I'll fix this tomorrow to look proper in an editor such as Wordpad. Sorry for any confusion.

-Ryan
 
I saw those safecrackers today right after they went up for sell! If only I had $300 :lol: I think Gary as the club treasurer should buy them for a frag demo at the next meet from club funds ;).

I am all in for doing group buys and splitting fraggs but would need to think more on this idea to put my 2 cents in...its to late to think.

But I would recomend going ahead and cutting the frag up and mounting 2-3 polyps each or how ever many is avaliable, needed, on a frag disk to do the grow out on. Then draw names from a hat for the 10 fraggs at disbursement day because all the disks will not set on the exact same # of polyps just to be the most fair. I know from hard learned experiance cutting a glueing frags of zoas is very time consuming and I personally wouldn't want to stand around for hours waiting on busting up 10 colonies into 10 fraggs.... Along with the inevidable "he got 7 polyps and I only got 4 on my break" kinda whinning that would happen. A average zoa is one thing but when you are talking about $20+ a polyp things 3 polyps is a ton of money or leverage for a swap, ya know?
I have talked with a few people about going in on a few nicer colonies and splitting them ( and have once ) but this will be a ton of work for someone to manage. Great idea though.

What about just doing a large "desirable" frag order from a reputable retailer of say 10 frags and do the same thing just everyone pitches in the same start up money before the order knowing the small risk involved in loosing a investment on 10 cool fraggs 6 months later. That way it would also be more fair than me putting in my really cool dragon eyes (IMO) and getting back a PPE. The PPE doner is getting the bad end for sure because mine are very commen and pretty cheap and he may already have tons of them. See what I am saying. And the signed up group/members could have some say in what are ordered. A master wish list so to say from everyone and the facilitator shop from it. Or just do a big colony like the safecrackers Titansfan linked and bust it up among 10 people would be only $30 each and a big frag at that.


Trust me it sounds good on paper but when you are dealing with people human nature takes over inevitably and someone will have issues like I mentioned and get mad. Its just human nature, especially when you are talking about money involved! OK did I say I wasn't giving my 2 cents tonight? Lookes like I gave a whole quarters worth! :lol:
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8031721#post8031721 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rsteagall
More like what would happen is an elite few would get all the trades and then the trading would stop....

That quote scares me as I see that is what it would turn into. Are we not now almost doing what you wrote about except everyone just grows their own frags? As far as real rare zoas I have a few. They are small frags like my Tubb's Blues. I like to watch them myself and see growth. I would kinda hate to buy them and put them in someone elses tank to do what I could do myself at home and enjoy. We all already sell frags to each other and the Frag Swaps have us all getting together and doing it. The other thing that kinda worries me is "putting all our eggs in one basket". What if the horrible happens and somethiing goes awry with the frag system. Then "poof" they are all gone.

The suggestion of a weekly/monthly colony chop house would net us more than one frag for $20. I could come up with for sure $20 a month if not every 2 weeks for a new colony. Each 2 weeks 10 of us throwin $20 a piece. We get a nice colony and bust it up. We could all pay into the group's paypal acocunt and have Gary make the purchase. Each meeting there could be a new colony to frag. This would actually be a quicker way to do it as we would not have to wait on growth. I dun know all of it is for sure something to think about.
 
TitansFan, thanks for agreeing with me on that first part. Maybe what we need is an ORGANIZED trading club... without prejudice. I'll take this into consideration and looking at modifying the proposal. The proposal I still believe minimizes costs, buy yes... it probably does have greater risk.

Everyone is still missing something on the large colony purchases. While it may increase circulation of zoas, so would spending $1000 a person... but I don't think many of us will do that.

Lets run through the math of the proposal over a 6 month period of time based on the average of a $200 colony purchase per month.

10 people * $20 per person * 6 months = $1200
6 months * 1 frag per month = 6 frags

Not bad for 6 frags of different zoas... Now... lets look at it another way where we grow the frags out.

Lets take 10 organized people purchasing 10 different frags at $30 per frag with a growout period of 6 months.

10 organized people * $30 each = $300
10 organized people * 1 frag each = 10 frags

If YOU are willing to let time work for you, your net savings is $900 as the group and you increase the number of frags received by 4 (or 66% more).

This is basically what my proposal did, but yes increased risk while reducing maintenance and cost by participants. This would however reduce risk while increasing maintenace and cost by participants.

I don't know how everyone else feels, but as a group I'd rather save $900 and increase productivity by 66%. So, an organized trading club may work. We could potentially even tier the club into different groups depending on the how the zoas are organized. With this plan... time has to be on your side and thus patience.

Thoughts?

-Ryan
 
I'm introducing a v2 of the proposal that puts the burden of grow-out on each individual person to reduce the risk of all the eggs in one basket. Looking back... my math example may have confused things and I have a better and more clear example in the new v2 proposal. The goal is still the same, but just attacking it from a different angle.

Here it is and please.. give me feedback.

http://12.153.17.195/zoanthid_club_proposal_v2.doc


Thanks to everyone!

-Ryan
 
Well, I waited around 24 hours to respond/bump this up. I’m pretty amused at the lack of response from my v2 proposal. Maybe I should have created a whole other thread for v2? I also would have thought it would have been very appealing to some. Personally I don’t see any reason the plan shouldn’t work as laid out in v2 with a little tweaking. Maybe people were scared of some of the rules of the game? I dunno.

By the lack of response, it also appears fairly factual that no one wants to be part of a zoa trading club, no one wants to increase circulation of hard to get zoas, and no one desires to save money while accomplishing the goals. I guess its easier to let the market dictate what you get and what you pay. Pretty disappointing IMHO.

Anyway, I won’t bother anyone else with this insane idea that I had to better the community. Sorry if I sounded harsh in any way (the internet makes it seem that way sometimes). I’m not sore or ticked off, but I did expect more response. I guess its time to just hop on the same boat as everyone else and ride the tide. :eek: ;) :D

Thanks again to all people that took their time to read the 2 very different proposals.

-Ryan
 
I was a little confused with all the math :lol: J/K It looks like you put a lot of work into this plan!

Its a good idea but I personally like to watch my stuff grow out on its own and I hardley trust anyone to do my top offs much less cut on and grow out a coral for me! Especially a zoa I had been wanting for awhile. I am a controll freak though, like most women. ;)

I had thought about doing a zoa frag system on my own and propigating some nicer zoas to sell locally. Not for a big money maker but to get some nice things circulating in the area and help off set my cost of getting some of the nicer stuff to start up with. That is when my 5 tanks going now with everything gets condenced into just the big tank and I have room and time. I am facinated with coral farming.
 
Hey Ryan,
I love that you are trying to get this together. I personally appreciate the initiative you are putting forth to create more club activities and involvement. The ideas have been good. I just think alot of people already do this in away on personal basis. I buy a frag from Gary for $10. He turns around and gives the $10 to you for a frag. You then turn around and give it to Angela so on and so on. I still think would maybe have better luck with colony chopping. In a hobby such as this if there is a chance for instant gratification and not having to wait for growth it seems more appealing.

Even with colony chopping a frag tank at someone's house would be needed. There it could be dipped, placed in the frag tank to be observed for predators, and allowed to heal from shipping. Money could be collected by our treasurer, Gary, each month. From the club's PayPal the purchase could be made. The fragging of it could be done at monthly meetings or done beforehand and just distributed at meetings. Sure in a year, assuming $20 per person is collected, I would spend $240. I would hope though in a years time I could grow out enough to sell at frag swaps.

This could even be extended to SPS colonies.

Again appreciate the hard work and thought! Now I must get back to trying to fish this darn wrasse out of my overflow.

-Chris
 
Wow... now I'm getting made fun of and getting shot for trying to get something going to benefit everyone? Maybe I'll make a v3 just for you frog.

Angela, you must have missed the 2nd proposal all together. :( In this one each individual was responsible for growing theirs out. In success or failure growing it out, they would still benefit.
 
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