Zoanthids naming convention: any correlation between color morph & scientific?

[clsanchez77]

Hey everyone:

I posted another thread concerning my tank plans and P.grandis. I asked about other zoanthids suitable for the tank and had a few color morph names recommended and it got me searching around.

I found www.zoaid.com and while it is a very comprehensive collection for zoa's, it did not provide any species id, or even a genus level. Are all the zoa's that closely related that it just can not be determined? Are there any general rules of thumb that might help in classifying a zoanthid based on its color morphs?

Thanks,
Chris

 

[cowcio]

They can definitely be determined... I'm not an expert, so I'll wait for jreimer (or another "expert") to step in and give advice.

In any case... any of the the zoas/palys/etc. on www.zoaid.com in the same tank.

 

[clsanchez77]

Well, refering to this article, http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/invert.htm,

and knowing that I want specifically Protopalythoa grandis and Zoanthus pulchellus for my biotope tank (Caribbean back reef rubble zone, moderate depth at ~75-100').

How would I find such specific polyps if they are generally sold by the hobby names, such as listed here: www.zoaid.com, and then even more complicated that many LFS/dealers have them wrong or just call all of them Zonathus sp.

Chris

 

[surfnvb7]

i've seen people do the bio tope tanks, but they lived in florida and parts of the carribean, and collected corals themselves.

with that said, how can you determine if its a carribean morph by picking it up from a LFS or online? good question, i have no idea, and i'm not sure i'd totally rely on the word of the LFS.

....actually, just so you know, the blue kiss morph is carribean. i know of the person(s) that actually went and collected it from the wild. they are purecaptive on ebay.

 

[jreimer]

clsanchez,

You have asked the million dollar question on color morphs and species. Classification to the genus level is pretty easy, but for a lot of Zoanthus and Palythoa morphs no reliable species id exists. The other problem is lots of species have been described and redescribed - so it makes for a confusing mess of names.

Some people are working top down (clarifying families, then genera, then species) and others bottom up (from species upwards). I am working on Zoanthus and Palythoa species, trying to clarify things, but starting with samples in my area (Japan mainly), which may not be of much use to you. I hope to have a quick article posted as a thread or something soon, I'll be sure to post it on here.

I have some pics of species and color morphs at:

http://reefbucket.com/browse.php and then click on "jreimer"'s public folders.

You in possession of some cool morphs or something??? Would be cool to see...

j.

 

[zarro]

HI

 

[clsanchez77]

surfnvb7...I would not trust the word of an LFS or online vendor unless verified by another hobbyiest, and even then I would just be less skeptical instead of fully skeptical. I will take a look at the blue kiss morph and see if I like it, maybe it will do.
I know that www.zoaid.com has started a origin field for its zoas (http://www.zoaid.com/zoanthid_origin.php) but is only completed for a handful.

jreimer...where do I collect my million dollars for asking :celeb1:. I am looking foward on seeing an article from you. As far as I know, there has not been any Zoa artickels since Sprung that I posted below, and article dates itself back a good bit. Unfortunately, I do not possess any cool morphs...in fact as of now I do not possess any. The tank is still new and I am patiently waiting for the hair algae to recede.

zarro...hi :wavehand:

Chris

 

[clsanchez77]

Just data mining some Zoaid data for my use...enjoy.

Just data mining some Zoaid data for my use...enjoy.

From the www.zoaid.com origin tool, I have found this:

From Flordia, 4 contenders

• Alien Eye
• AOI
• Blue Eyed Dragon
• Enigma

From Puerto Rico, only 1 contender

• Caribbean Beauties

From the Caribbean, 3 contenders

• Aqua Splatter
• Blue Kisses (as mentioned by surfnvb7)
• Taylor's Holy Grail

From Brazil, 1 last contender

• Latina Lips

Chris

 

[clsanchez77]

Mix and Match Picture for the above list...

Mix and Match Picture for the above list...

Again from Florida:

AOI

Alien Eyes

Blue Eyed Dragon

Enigma

Again from Puerto Rico:

Caribbean Beauties

 

[clsanchez77]

Mix and Match Pictures Continued...

Mix and Match Pictures Continued...

Again from Caribean

Aqua Splatter

Blue Kisses

Taylor's Holy Grail

And again from Brazil

Latina Lips

It's too bad I could not get the pictures to post directly.

Chris

 

[jaymz101]

I had heard that there were basically two species of Zoanthus. And ID was based on the growth pattern. One grows in relatively straight rows while the other grows in a kind of spiral pattern.

Im not convinced that color morphs arent just genetic mutations within a species (like hair color in humans, only taken to the extreme) or maybe something on a subspecies level.

I say this b/c I got a rock with 2 morphs of zoanthus on it. 3 months later I count at least 8 colormorphs. These are my only zoanthus, and the only ones I have ever had so these new colors didnt come from the tank.

Dont get me wrong, Ive got no problem with people naming diff color morphs, but I prefer not to.

 

[jaymz101]

Then again, I could be way off. Im a fish biologist, not a coral biologist.

 

[clsanchez77]

jaymz101, I completely agree with you, but at the same time I have to work with what I have available to me. If I want to setup a biotope for a spheric area, I should be able to request a specific genus,species,morph common to that niche.

However, it just does not work out that way as the science and/or the hobby has not compiled that level of detail in the taxonomy. To complicate that, coral taxonomy is constantly on the change. Who is to say that what are two different isolated species are really one in the same, one is taller and the other shorter/fatter. And then on top that, I have to work within trade restrictions/specimen availability, which means choosing from a limited species selection and/or substituting with similar Pacific specimens that are collected.

When I planned my biotope, selecting the fish was easy. The corals and inverts were a lot more challenging ad I have several threads on here detailing my decision process and asking questions trying to nail things as complete and as natural as possible.

Btw, it took a little work but here are the 9 Atlantic color morphs id'ed on zoaid

Chris

 

[jaymz101]

agreed.

 

[surfnvb7]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7558596#post7558596 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by clsanchez77
surfnvb7...I would not trust the word of an LFS or online vendor unless verified by another hobbyiest, and even then I would just be less skeptical instead of fully skeptical. I will take a look at the blue kiss morph and see if I like it, maybe it will do.
I know that www.zoaid.com has started a origin field for its zoas (http://www.zoaid.com/zoanthid_origin.php) but is only completed for a handful.

isn't that what i said? i would never trust the word of a LFS either.

with that said...i find your reasoning flawed since you are linking from zoaID. the person(s) who run zoaid are just hobbyists like you and me, not experts or divers that go out and collect them and identify them by any means. when they put up that a certain zoa is from the carribean, 9/10 they know this b/c they were told so by another hobbyist, that was told by a LFS or wholesaler.

bottom line, the only TRUE way to find out where they came from, is to find out where they were just shipped to the wholesaler from. b/c after they get to the wholesaler, i've been told they just go into huge tubs of water that are not grouped by the area they came from.

...or, of course go out and collect them yourself. the "blue kiss" morph is carribean for sure, as i know of the person who actually went out and collected them.

 

[clsanchez77]

surfnvb7, you did say that and I agreed with you there as well.

with that said...i find your reasoning flawed since you are linking from zoaID. the person(s) who run zoaid are just hobbyists like you and me, not experts or divers that go out and collect them and identify them by any means. when they put up that a certain zoa is from the Caribbean, 9/10 they know this b/c they were told so by another hobbyist, that was told by a LFS or wholesaler

...ouch!

I think you are over reading my reasoning or are expecting me to exceed the hobby standards and classify my own specimens.

My reasoning is not based on ideal scientific data or hobby practice, but trying to catch the best middle ground that I can.

I am fully aware that zoanthids are not scientifically classified by their color morphs...I never implied...I no better than that. If you think that I believed it is, then ask yourself why did I post this thread to begin with?

What I am trying to do is use what information is available to make the best selection for my aquarium. Having searched the zoanthid forum from inception to date, the only source I can find for hobbyist is www.zoaid.com, which as you stated, is maintained by hobbyists. This will be heavily dependent on visual characteristics, in which we all agree is flawed. Arguably, this may be 'good enough' for the hobby standard.

I have spent a lot of time on www.saltcorner.com and other online coral databases and the information on zoanthids is very vague and often contradictory. Given a the polyp group as a whole in under constant revision, I do not see how further information could be provided consistently. As one poster stated above, he is personally working to help reclassify zoanthids in the Japan area.

Now as far as your recommendation goes, that is fine, assuming I am in contact with the shipper. I can tell you that by the time they arrive to my LFS, they have gone thru a distributor who puts everything in one large tank just as you stated. Generically, my LFS can distinguish between 'Atlantic' and 'Pacific' but with zoanthids being nearly circumtropical with little difference, how can I depend on the LFS judgement anymore than I can using www.zoaid.com. I would be willing to bet he thinks all brown zoa's are 'Atlantic' and all colorful zoas are 'Pacific'.

So given the above, and the fact that online vendors and/or LFS are going to sell zoanthids as 'button polyps' or by some flashy color morph name (and not even a standard one at that), hobbyists wanting specific species or sub-species of zoanthids are at a handicap and have to make the best of the situation.

...or, of course go out and collect them yourself. the "blue kiss" morph is Caribbean for sure, as i know of the person who actually went out and collected them.

If this was actually feasible for me, then I would. But then if it were feasible for everyone, I am not sure there would be any left in the wild.

Chris

 

[surfnvb7]

your points are well considered. i'm not trying to offend you or anything. i'm just saying that since LFS, and hobbyists (such as zoaid), get their information from the same sources, how can you favor the opinion of one, over the other??

granted, you are right, you just need to find the best middle ground. given you are from La? Louisiana? you are close enough to florida, in which I would think you would be able to find some zoanthid propagators that actually know where, and of zoa morphs that have been collected from the wild down there.

i remember reading a thread in the ricordia forum, of alot of people in florida/carribean (who are members of this board), having permits to go out and collect their own ricordia's and zoanthids. they had some amazing biotope tanks.

so instead of trying to identify a morph based on color, if its carribean, why not try to track down these people who already have established carribean biotope tanks? and try to purchase whatever color morphs they have, since you'll know for a fact they are from the carribean.

i guess what i'm getting at is this...are you more concerned about it being a true carribean biotope tank? or as long as the color morphs are pleasing to you, and look similar to the other "supposedly" carribean morphs?

i'm not attacking you or anything, its just that some of your reasoning seems to go "back and forth", like you arent quite sure what you want in your tank.

 

[clsanchez77]

When I posted a thread a few months back looking for an online coral database, (comparable to www.fishbase.com) I got a few good ones back, I favor www.saltcorner.com. I was in a way hoping to find something similar existed in the zoanthid world and having played on this thread and searched the board up and down, nothing has come up.

I do not know how to go and actually find the zoanthid collectors/propogators. I suppose I could raid a few Flordia Reef Clubs for some information.

Most Caribbean biotopes that I have seen on this site start with good intnetion but sidetrack to the SPS garden becuase of the lack of availibility of a good variety of Caribbean corals. They start out with Florida Live Rock and Caribbean fish, then a mix ricordia, assorted polyps and gorgonia...then progress to a softie tank and then finally you have a SPS with Caribbena rock and fish. I am not knocking people for attempting biotope tanks, that is just what I have seen of the majority of them. WIth coral restrictions, Caribbean biotopes make better fish tanks than reef tanks. Given that, I am trying to mitigate my uphill battle. So you may see some 'back and forth' and that is just me trying to sort and do with what is available...that is I dont want to set myself up to get something that I will not be able to get or will not be able to verify if it is what I actually have. And I ertainly do not want to have to depend on resalers to use there jusgement when they do not have much better sources of information than we do.

As far as what I want in my tank, see http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=855667. It is very detailed and there is some back and forth. I want to limit the tank to 5 species and am solidly sold on 2 of the 5 (5 colonies ricordia florida, 3 colonies protpalythoa grandis) to a species level and 3 of the 5 to a generic family level (3 specimen branching gorogonia, 3 colonies zoanthid-zoanthus & 3 specimen LPS).

This thread only concerns the zoanthus sp. selection (and the P.grandis, but I already figured that one out).

So regarding the question wheather I want a true bipotope or a visually pleasing representation of a biotope, here is where I stand:
The rock, cleanup crew and fish are definity Caribbean
3 of the 5 corals species will be defintly Caribbean
The LPS will definitly not be Caribean, but will be carefully chose such that it is closely related to and visually close to a Caribbean (examples: Scolymia, Montastrea, Lobophlylia)

Regarding the zoanthus selection, I will see if I can direclty contact some collectors or propagators for insight. But being that it is quite possible that most zoanthus of the Caribbean are circumtropical and/or not identified to a species level (Z. societes, Z. pulchellus or Z. pacificus), I may be left to select by color morphs.

Chris

 

[surfnvb7]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7560428#post7560428 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by clsanchez77

I do not know how to go and actually find the zoanthid collectors/propogators. I suppose I could raid a few Flordia Reef Clubs for some information.

Chris

absolutely!!! look through the reef club forums, and find those florida reef clubs and ask them who to contact. that would be a perfect way to get what you want!!

the person i know of, bryan at captivereef on ebay. (i think thats his ebay name), i dont know if he has a website or not, or what his RC name is.

also, go into the mushroom/ricordia forum, and ask around about carribean biotope tanks. someone will point you towards the people who go out and get their own stuff, and make their own biotope tanks. i KNOW i've seen several threads in there about them.

 

[knowse]

Does anyone remember the name of the guy in PA that has the huge prop/growout systems and sells online? IIRC he has two setups. One Pacific and one Atlantic. IF I wanted to go with a certain biotope of zoas, he's the one I would be talking to!