Zoo Dip

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11754288#post11754288 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Lt.Dan
Do you use salt water from your tank or fresh DI water with the temperature and PH close to the reef tanks water with the 4 to 5 drops per gallon of Lugol,s and how long do you leave them in the dip? Do you rinse with fresh DI water after the iodine dip?
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I have always used RO water. The osmosis shock of the fresh water will take out most of the predators. Matching the temp and the PH helps to reduce stress during the 4 to 5 minutes dip. Dipping the poylps in another quick RO dip minus the iodine doesn't hurt.

There are other dips out there that work well, I haven't tried any of them.


Good luck
 
Thanks for the information Mucho. I have lost some nice colonies of Zoas before. I am always looking for ways to keep them as healthy as possible. Have you ever had any experience using with Seachem reef plus as a vitamin supplement. The main ingredient is vitamin C.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11760533#post11760533 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Lt.Dan
Thanks for the information Mucho. I have lost some nice colonies of Zoas before. I am always looking for ways to keep them as healthy as possible. Have you ever had any experience using with Seachem reef plus as a vitamin supplement. The main ingredient is vitamin C.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's all I use and it has worked wonders for me. Some don't agree that it is effective, all I know is that my colonies continue to prosper and look great. They grow well, I never seem to get any BI or fungus and I've only had POX once or twice. And I do recall it was at a time when I wasn't using the Reef Plus consistently. I am by no means making any claims, I'm simply saying it is what I use and will continue to use, KNOCK ON WOOD, LOL.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11762347#post11762347 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by juniormc8704
is an iodine effective in destroying nudi eggs? if not, do you know of anything that is other than manual removal?
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Iodine has absolutely no affect on Nudi eggs. However, there is a new product on the market that does kill live nudis and their eggs. It's called Potassium permanganate, if I'm wrong on the spelling and all the details, I stand corrected. I haven't tried this, but check out this article below. I hope this sheds some light for you my friend.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-09/eb/index.php
 
Can you use the same dip for multiple zoo colony's. As i have 3 coming in fri and want to make sure i get them in the best way/
 
Since I alrady have Tropic Marin Pro-Coral Cure, can I use it instead Lugols? I usually get my water tea color with TMPCC.
 
Last Thursday i got a colony of 25-30 Eagle Eyes, paid overnight shipping from Florida, not cheap.

This was my 9th or 10th purchase of zoa frags, but the first time I've used Mucho's Zoo Dip. I purchased Lugol's exclusively for this purchase.

Followed directions to a T. Now, a week later, they're all almost gone. First time ever I've lost a frag/colony.

I acclimated them to tank water carefully, and then dipped them before putting them into the disaply. Exactly as per the instructions.

I feel that this Lugol's was the primary cause of EVERY one of these Eagle Eyes shrivling down to 1/8 inch long, 1 mm wide twigs.

I am so pi$$ed right now because of this, but I will only state that this was the only thing different to my acclimation process. No insults or rampages necessary.

BE CAREFUL - nothing is guaranteed in this hobby, but I never expected such disasterous results in my wildest imagination.

FYI to everyone.
 
Wow, I'm sorry you feel this way and I'm also sorry that you lost your Eagle Eye frag. I have dipped Eagle Eyes many times with this dip and I have never had a single problem. The dip was posted in 2004, it has helped hundreds if not thousands of people and has worked successfully many many times. I just read the first 3 pages of this 10 page thread and posted all of the positive feedback from 3 pages alone for those who may be swayed. The dip consists of R/O water. It is Reverse Osmosis water which is completely safe. Safe enough that it is used to treat some fish by doing a fresh water bath that is well documented by the pros. Setting the PH to that of your tank, also reduces any stress placed on the dipped coral and that is safe. Setting the temp to that of your tank also helps, and that is also safe. The final part of the dip is the Lugol's Iodine. Lugols has medicinal properties that will actual help heal sick corals. Clearly written on the side of the bottle, it's states to use a full 25 drops to 1 gallon of water for a dip. Again, that was 25 drops, the dip only requires 4 or 6 drops. So the dip I posted is even safer to use then the actual recommended dose if using it for a dip.

If the dip is perform correctly and for the proper length of time, as I have done hundreds of times with complete success, your corals will be fine.

goldmaniac, could you share with use exactly what you did in preparing your dip and the process? There are many things that could have caused your frag to perish. I think it would have been great if you had listed the entire process first for us. I can list all of the possible reasons your frag could have perish.

1. If the dipping container is not cleaned and free of anything that was in the bucket previously, that can cause your polyps to perish.

2. If the tempt was too warm/hot, that can cause your polyps to perish.

3. Although rare, if left in the dip too long, that can cause your polyps to perish.

4. If you received freshly cut and glued frags, they can perish even without the dip.

5. Too much Lugols could cause a problem, but I don't know how much you used.

6. Don't know your water source, but I heard from a guy who used water from his well and they died.

7. Coincidently, it could just have been a bad frag. It happens all the time. I've lost frags that were shipped to me before I even performed a dip.



I'm sorry you chose to openly target the dip that has helped so many. I do not take it personal. Hope we can hear from you soon and again, I'm sorry you lost your frag.

Mucho Reef




First 3 pages of positive replies below.


Reefez wrote

Worked for me :)
One of my colonies would be a total loss if not for the advice and help of Mucho and his dipping method. I would highly reccomend it, and will continue to use it on all future colonier introduced into my reef. Thanks again Mucho



Acroconut wrote
I used Mucho's suggestion of freshwater dip to get rid of zoo eating nudis. I dipped my zoo's for 5 minutes in freshwater every other day for about 12 days. My zoo's are recovering, and I have seen no more nudibranchs. I'm very greatful for the advice. I would have lost all my beautiful blue zoo's had I not dipped them. Thanks Mucho



Jendub wrote
I at first did not do fresh water dips, I thought if it's good in the sea, it's good in my tank....not true. My zoos had nudis on them and soon enough they were everywhere in my tank. So in a panic I searched for advice on RC and found Mucho's simple solution. It took a lot of time to remove the eggs and adults but I never lost any zoos. I only wish I did my research first....thanks again Mucho, the reef needs more people like you



ejocam
Mods should make this a sticky, great info MUCHO



ODOG wrote
I wish I had this info before I was looking in my tank the other day (yesterday) and noticed a small colony of zoo's all closed up...I immediately notcied the nudi's. I did dip in some freshwater, but was in such a panic I didn't worry about temp or ph, but a dippin' and shakin' I went. I was amazed at how many fell off I stopped counting at 12. It was a new colony and it was inspected and dipped before adding, but I wasn't really looking for eggs so I guess they must have just hatched, no ther zoo's seem to be affected, but I guess time will tell. Thanks, and I agree this should be a sticky.



Impur wrote
Just wanted to say thanks for posting this thread mucho reef!!! I used it to dip my new zoos last night, everything went perfect. I didn't use any iodine, as all i have is Kent's Tech-D but i'm sure it would have sufficed. I acclimated them to my tank water for a hour or so, moved them to the RO and FWE for around 4 min. I saw all sorts of stuff coming out of the rock they are attached to, 2 bristle worms, a couple copepods and what looked very much like an isopod. If it was, then you saved me from a lot of grief!!! I put the zoos in my tank about 10 min before lights out and this morning they were all open and happy, no side effects whatsoever.



Anthworks wrote

I was speaking of the nudi's . Lots of little ones and a few large ones came off. I worked on the eggs but put the colony back in the tank. I will try another dip in a few days and work to remove the eggs. After reading your post I noticed the signs of these pests. Great thread you saved my zoo's.




Nas19320 wrote
I used this dip on about 20 frags that I received this weekend and everything turned out great and almost all the zoo's opened an hour or two after doing the dip.



Fairfield Reef wrote

great info thank you



Kimmy wrote
I hve 4 colonies of Zoo's looking sad so I went here looking for answers and came upon this thred. I did the tip this morning and Holy Cow. There must've been hundreds of those nasty creatures in my Zoos. I peeled off as many egg saks as I could find and will now continue to watrch my colonies daily for further infestation. Do these bus (nudis) eat anything other than Zoos? Is there any other corals I need to be watching for these bugs.? Do they starve if I remove all the zoos from my tank? Thnks in advance.... Kimmy



Bklba wrote

plz put a sticky on this one



jamone wrote
zoo eating nudi's...colony has not opened up for over a week.

just did the zoo dip last night and ran actinics.

colony blooming!

mucho...thank you very much for this post!
you saved my lovely zoos!!!

i will use this method if this occurs again.




SFlogic wrote

I just wanted to say thanks MUCHO for this thread.... I went and bought some Lugols and read an instruction from the bottle stating that they have a little recipe for a coral dip as well. 40 drops in 1 gallon of water and submerse the coral for 10-15 minutes... i tried it last night with half strength and so far my zoos are opening up pretty well right now..



Jacksok

Mucho - Just wanted to add my thanks for this treatment regime. Used it today and seemed to work a treat.



Just an FYI
 
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I've used muchos dip before and I actually use a lot more, and now use TMPCC. in a small bowl. the water is dark tea colored and leave my zoas for 15 mins or so. Never had a problem.

I've gotten numerous zoas from florida, next day ( morning delivery to Cali ) I've had 50-70% survival rate. EVEN when they all look good at first, with in days they shriveled and died.

Just because we do something new in the tank and something happens we always think its the immediate cause. We sometimes overlook other causes and sometimes don't see it. They're a lot of things that happens to our tanks in a daily basis that we don't notice that has been there for a long time but just notice it when the end result occurs, IE' Dead zoa, dead fish etc...

I myself have used mucho's dip but actually went further 8-10times the strenght and still no problem.

Just my .02. Mucho has done a lot for us here in RC. He will not put up a thread about doing something to our corals with out testing it himself and making sure it works prior to him displaying it to the public and urging them to use it. Other things may have occured to those polyps and the timing just happend to occur after you dipped them.
 
Every Caribbean zoa I've seen to date has eventually shriveled up & died, I'm guessing there's something in their habitat that we are not fulfilling (feedings?) or something to do with collection/transportation/handling on the collector's end.

As far as the dip, if your coral is healthy then they can take it no problem, we dip all of our new imports these days just to be safe. If the coral is weak/struggling to stay alive then the added stress may push it over the edge, but if it was infested with nudis it's only a matter of time before it happens anyway.

FYI- nudis seem to prefer certain zoas/colonies so we will usually just throw away the rock if we see some on there =)
 
Mucho,

Thanks for the response. I was not hitting you up as a target. I've read your posts in many, MANY zoa threads and you've always seemed very level-headed and helpful with your comments. Including this Zoo Dip. Not a personal attack at all.

I did read the entire thread, hearing one positive testimony after another, and that's one reason why I'm so surprised at this result. I followed your procedure exactly, and that's another reason I'm surprised.

I've been waiting for these zoas to open up for a week, and when I came home from work today, it looks like all of the outside of the zoas have sluffed off, all in one day. Picture an apple, and then picture all edible apple gone, leaving the core. That's what I came home to today. I am much more interested in finding the cause rather than simply pointing fingers.

Details on the dip:

5-gallon bucket is the bucket I've been using to move my RO/DI water all around. I'm sure it's clean and I even rinsed it out with RO a final time before using it for the dip. I put 4 gallons of RO/DI from my 35 gph Maxima Hi-S filter. I'm confident the water is good, tds passed the pass/fail tds inspection.
4 gallons of RO/DI water received 7 drops of Lugol's.

temp for the dip water was 78f, same as display.
pH was 8.2-8.3. It's possible that this hurt them - i used a pinch of baking soda to increase the pH and maybe that's detrimental for a reason I don't know. I'm open to comments.

I acclimated them to my display water in a separate 5-gallon bucket, also a clean bucket, for 10 - 20 minutes, then put them in the dip for 5 minutes, using a timer. Then I shook the frag clockwise/counterclockwise for almost a minute, then spalshed and splooshed a little, and then placed the little colony onto the sandbed. tank is 24" deep, 150w HQI light canopy.

I tested the display tonight, here's my paramaters:
temp: 77f
salt: 1.024
pH= 8.3
NO3 = 0
alk = 8 dKH <-- a little higg
Ca = about 420

while testing tonight, i saw a hermit crab eating the frag in question. I think they're toast.

Meanwhile, doing well in the display tank, nothing purchased since post-2007:
9-10 colonies of zoas including:
RPE's
bam bams
zombie eyes
those giant cinnamon ones
etc etc I'm not concerned with rarity/ LE's, etc. just listing some i know and 2 colonies of rics and a few softies. three fish, Kole tang, Rainford's Goby, Green mandarin. that's it.

The seller was pretty accommodating, he cut some zoas and let them fasten for almost a week, they did ok shipping. I paid for USPS Overnight, but took two days from Florida to Pennsylvania. I wasn't surprised. Zoas were in their own little bag of water for the trip, with a heat pack.

They looked ok until today, just hadn't opened yet. not even a little bit.

So any idea what could have been the problem? I never ordered from this guy before, don't know him. Cannot vouch nor defend the seller, I'd rather keep his name out of this until something more definite occurs.

Thanks,
G.
 
Hello goldmaniac, I'm glad you responded and again, I sorry for the loss. I read your entire post and it seems that you did everything perfectly and your parameters look great. Maybe your temp is a hair low but that wouldn't cause any problems though. I am very confident that you just had a frag that went south on you. It has happened to every single person on this board who has been in this hobby for some time. It's the risk we take. I don't know if you have ever heard this, but I'm going to share it and I'm sure you are aware and I'm not talking down to you at all. The ecosystems we create to keep, cultivate and propagate are man made Biotopes that will never and can never duplicate what mother nature has created. In reefing, anything can happen as there are no absolutes. There is no doubt my friend that it was not the shippers fault, it wasn't your fault and I can assure you it wasn't the fault of the dip. It was simply a coincidence, that's all. I just wish you had posted your second post first or even PM'd me first. Why? I watched and counted 50 people who viewed the thread after your first post. That is potentially 50 people who might not use the dip now because they saw your post. I can only imaging now how many of them who will now stay away from this dip and maybe all the other dips out there and have disastrous results because of fear from this thread.

To be very honest, and I have never ever said this to anyone ever. I have always used 7 drops of Lugols since the day I posted the dip thread. The recommendations of the dip were conservative at best. I was always afraid that someone would attribute the dip to a loss of a dipped coral. As I said above, Kent Marine who sales the Lugols recommends the use of 40 drops per gallon of water, so the 6 to 7 drops can't possibly cause damage. I'll be honest, I was a little bothered when I read it as I would never ever post or share something which I know proof positively wasn't safe.

A lot of the people here including myself just love to read, listen, share and most of all help. It just seemed to me that it was an attack on me and the dip because you said this at the end.

"I feel that this Lugol's was the primary cause of EVERY one of these Eagle Eyes shriveling down to 1/8 inch long, 1 mm wide twigs.

I am so pi$$ed right now because of this, but I will only state that this was the only thing different to my acclimation process. No insults or rampages necessary.

BE CAREFUL - nothing is guaranteed in this hobby, but I never expected such disastrous results in my wildest imagination.

FYI to everyone."


I wish you the best with the next batch of frags you receive. Again, I think it was just a coincidense my friend.

All the best, Mucho
 
I read goldmaniac post and while I'm not total surprised at what happened, I am a little disappointed with the method of goldmaniac picked to handle it.
I have had colonies just go south for no apparant reason.
Sometimes there just isn't a explaination.
If the dip had been done with half the colony and the other half, not dipped and the not dipped half survived, then maybe you could say that something had gone wrong with the dip.

goldmaniac, this is a place to help, not attack.
If you have a problem with someones method or suggestions, try a pm.
 
All is well.

I just think we all have to continue working together to make this the best Zoanthid forum on the net. Group hug.
 
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I've used the dip i don't know how many times. I use it on new zoas, zoas that might look like they are doing poorly, freshly fragged zoas, and anytime i'm moving zoas from one tank to another. I've used Kent Tech-D, Lugol's iodine, and now i use TMPCC almost exclusively. I've never once attributed any losses to the dip. There is always another reason.

I'm currently battling monti eating nudis. One of the encrusting montis has some zoas growing on the rock, about a dozen polyps. I was more concerned with the monti than the zoas, so i've been dipping in TMPCC at 5X strength for 20+ minutes at a time. Sunday will be the 6th dip in 6 weeks. The zoas look better than the montis after this dip and show no signs of stress.

Also I agree with JenDub on carribean zoas. I've given up on them all together. They simply don't do well in our tanks.

Just wanted to add my experiences with this dip.

Also eagle eyes are one of the more common morphs around. I'm sure you will be able to pick up a frag for cheap or trade no problem. But i am sorry to hear about your loss, its always tough when you lose an awesome looking coral like eagle eyes.
 
Now I'm getting attacked.
First of all : Impur â€"œ thanks for the words. They’re appreciated. This morning things don’t feel like such a big deal. Perspective always kicks in eventually.

Now, I came back and spent considerable time last night documenting details on what I did and the result, for clarification purposes and to contribute my experience in more detail. And Mucho was good enough to follow up, as well.
I re-read my initial statement from yesterday, and although I typed it out at time of discovering disappointment, I don’t think I was grossly out of line. Sure, I was hot that I found the results that I did, but Mucho clearly asked for feedback to be posted directly onto this thread, he mentioned that he’d gotten PMs about how this Lugol’s dip worked so well and he wanted testimony. I was providing testimony and my experience. If all that was wanted was positive testimony, then it’s an inaccurate compilation of user’s experiences. I don’t think Mucho wanted that, or at least I wouldn’t think so. I do not know him but I have seen nothing to indicate otherwise. Mucho appears to be very utilitarian.
I kept it brief and stated the facts and the only conclusion I posted was stated as an opinion. Yes, I will agree that I will never know 100% what the cause of the die-off was, but if it was just chance/dumb luck that this all happened the first time running the dip, then I really, REALLY had back luck with the chances. With 9 original frags that I’ve ever received, over the past 5 months, and this being the only one that I dipped, the chance that this happening (dip plus doomed zoa) is 1.2%

1 out of 9 frags failure rate = 11%
1 out of 9 frags dipped = 11% dipped.
11% of 11% is 1.2%
1.2% is the chance that the only zoa I’ve ever dipped is the only zoa that ever died on arrival.
** if my math is wrong, please correct me. But wow , that’s REALLY bad luck, considering Mucho is confident it’s not this dip.**

So [everybody] don’t come after me for any severe accusations. I did not criticize the dip or the procedure, I did not insult Mucho, I did not rant off and say “This SUCKS” or “F.U.” or “DO NOT USE THIS DIP” and I stated my conclusion as an opinion. I even added a caveat in there, that S!ht happens.
Mucho, I know we take chances with this hobby. I stated it in my first post yesterday. And regarding all of the 50 people who might have read my post, I had the responsibility to come back last night and clarify with details, results of my procedure and immediate testing, and you confirmed that I did everything right. Sure, maybe it was chance that something died the first time I used this dip. I will completely acknowledge that 100%. But I also had the responsibility to provide my experience and allow others to come to their own conclusions. I appreciate your follow-up, but my experience is not a personal attack on you and you don’t need to take it as such. “it just seemed it was an attack on me because of this at the end,” as you stated, is not correct. I see your posts on this and other threads and pay close attention to what you post, believe it or not. You know much more about zoas/palys than me, as I’ve been learning this corner of reefing since only Sept 07.
I hope you understand my position, I know negative incidents are not the way to promote this Lugol’s solution, but this thread has never indicated that you have any agenda to promote this. If I am the lone poster saying that the zoas that I dipped correctly, trying it for the first time, died, then that’s just what happened. I am not stating a correlation. At most, I [had] stated an opinion. I was actually relieved when I read your first response to my post saying that you weren’t taking it personally. I hope you now don’t, after reading my extensive ramblings explaining my position.
I wish you good luck and good experience.
___________________________________
Now,
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12252386#post12252386 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mfinn
I read goldmaniac post and while I'm not total surprised at what happened, I am a little disappointed with the method of goldmaniac picked to handle it.
I have had colonies just go south for no apparant reason.
Sometimes there just isn't a explaination.
If the dip had been done with half the colony and the other half, not dipped and the not dipped half survived, then maybe you could say that something had gone wrong with the dip.

goldmaniac, this is a place to help, not attack.
If you have a problem with someones method or suggestions, try a pm.
Click to expand...

mFinn, You’re out of line, and not helping. I was not attacking. I was reporting results. Granted, I should have waited a day to cool down to report, I’ll admit that. But I will say again that I was not as out of line as your response warrants. I was reporting my experience. See above.

G.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12246961#post12246961 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by goldmaniac


I feel that this Lugol's was the primary cause of EVERY one of these Eagle Eyes shrivling down to 1/8 inch long, 1 mm wide twigs.


BE CAREFUL - nothing is guaranteed in this hobby, but I never expected such disasterous results in my wildest imagination.

FYI to everyone.
Click to expand...


Looks pretty negative to me.

But I still say if you have some negative to say try and take care of it in private.
That was my point.

I also said that sometimes you lose stuff and there just isn't a explaination.
 
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