10 months in - thinking about starting over

[Ted_C]

So... Talked to Chris at FAOIS and he had a good suggestion - I started running filter socks and a UV in the beginning of August. Maybe I clarified my water so much that I'm frying these corals (even with the reduced whites and shorter photoperiod).

I do like the idea of filter socks so I will continue to run them - changing them out once per day still, I have dropped my intensities on my pac sun tritons (r2 - 145W) from 75% to 60%. I'm thinking of taking my UV offline or at the very least - replumbing it so it recirculates in the sump instead of running 100% of the return through it.

 

[anbosu]

If your whole return is running through your UV you probably aren't getting enough dwell time to have too much happen either way, so moving it to a different spot in your circulation system makes sense.

 

[Ted_C]

Well, I think you'd need more information before making that kind of statement.

The UV is a 57W Aqua Ultravilot 2" with wiper.

The return is a mag 18 return with 1 union, 3 90's and 1.5 foot of head before it reaches the UV. The UV is mounted vertically so it raises another 2 foot of head to another 90, a Tee to two 3/4" seaswirls and another 2 90's.

That calculates out to around 750 GPH from pump to outlets.

According to the chart of the UV:
60,000 µw/cm2 (EOL) 1600 gph
75,000 µw/cm2 (EOL) 1280 gph

1280 is as low as it goes. According to the above calculations and the Mfg reccomended ratings, the UV is vastly oversized. I'd need to be running a MAG 32 with no head loss to get down into the 30,000 µw/cm2 reccomended rating.

 

[anbosu]

I've never heard of a UV actually being able to run at that flow rate, although I may be confusing the flow rates to kill algae vs. ich, etc.

Good luck figuring out your problem, it seems like you're doing most everything right.

 

[Ted_C]

yep - all I can do now is sit back and wait with the lower lighting, the bergia nudibrances and the tiny peppermint shrimp I got from LA. Your answer wasn't jerky - you didn't need to edit it - I took no offense
Actually, I had never run through the exercise of calculating out the return and the UV rating - I just knew it was overrated when I put it in-line (just not by how much).

I have a new one on the way that's smaller - 25 W Emperor Aquatics with an eheim 1250. Now I need to find a 3/4" wye barbed fitting to fix the return plumbing.

 

[Rbs07fxstc]

So... Talked to Chris at FAOIS and he had a good suggestion - I started running filter socks and a UV in the beginning of August. Maybe I clarified my water so much that I'm frying these corals (even with the reduced whites and shorter photoperiod).

I do like the idea of filter socks so I will continue to run them - changing them out once per day still, I have dropped my intensities on my pac sun tritons (r2 - 145W) from 75% to 60%. I'm thinking of taking my UV offline or at the very least - replumbing it so it recirculates in the sump instead of running 100% of the return through it.

I know of someone who wiped out a stocked 120 full of coral this way. He thought his gfo was a bad batch. But just to find out it cleared water to quick & his LEDs toasted his corals.

 

[Ted_C]

Well this is unfortunate. On a whim while at FAOIS I bought a yellow wrasse Halichoeres chrysus to try and get a leg up on the Vermetids.

After three weeks in the system - dissappeared for the day on Thursday. Found it on friday swimming in the bottom corner of the aquarium with both eye's popeye'd. Down into the sump - but no luck. passed on.

Really, I swear, that is my last wrasse.

 

[MJNTWise]

I have bought 4 wrasse's and lost all of them...I'm also done with them.....

 

[ReefKeeper64]

Well this is unfortunate. On a whim while at FAOIS I bought a yellow wrasse Halichoeres chrysus to try and get a leg up on the Vermetids.

After three weeks in the system - dissappeared for the day on Thursday. Found it on friday swimming in the bottom corner of the aquarium with both eye's popeye'd. Down into the sump - but no luck. passed on.

Really, I swear, that is my last wrasse.

Ted, With all these bad issues you've been having I'd say it's time to turn your focus to hitting the reset button. That way you'll be done with all these terrible issues once and for all. The question becomes what is the best way to do a reset without breaking the bank. Here is how I would do it if it were my system. Refine the plan and make it your own is what I would do.

1- Remove remaining coral, fish, and invertebrates.
2 - Treat corals with Bayer. Treat fish with general cure. Move inverts into a small 1 gal container and do several 100% water change outs. After day 2, put them in the coral QT tank.
3 - Treat display tank, sump, Refugium (if you have one) by draining it of salt water. Add tap water and a couple of cups of muriatic acid. This will sterilize the tank. Let the pumps run a few days and run a filter sock. The combination of muriatic acid and no salt will kill vermetids and whatever nasty ameba or bacteria that may have made its way into your system. Coraline will be gone but will return in time thanks to the coralline growing on your snail shells.
4 - Drain tank after a few days and then refill with RO and salt. The acid will lower alk but is otherwise safe. Just get your alk back up to NSW levels when you refill your tank.
5 - When you have completed a 10 day treatment with general cure, you can add your fish back. Use a little prime daily if you need to keep ammonia in check while cycling. Depending on your system you can add the fish back before the cycle is complete.
6- No rush adding your frags back. Just do that when you know your tank is fully cycled.

This way you are back to a new setup for very little money and all those vermetids and whatever else is in your tank are gone for good. I hope you don't mind me throwing out the suggestion.

 

[Ted_C]

Thanks for the advice Chris. Back in August when I was thinking of starting over - it was leaning more towards an upgrade - which would break the bank. The only things transfering over would be the fish. Everything else would be new.

The only thing that concerns me with your method - I'm assuming you'd leave the rock in the tank to be treated with muriatic, yes? I'd be concerned about the rock (all Pukani) retaining the tap water. I'd also be concerned because the muriatic would react with the rock like a calcium reactor would - so the muriatic would be consumed and converted to Calcium Chloride - which wouldn't really help to leave it running.

I'm still leaning on a reset with a new 300. Just waiting on FAOIS to come back with their quote. Got my quote from Felix @ Reef Saavy.

The other way I'm leaning is just throwing in the towel and selling everything off. I'm tired of looking at all the aiptasia in the tank. I'm tired of being tied to the tank (I really need a fish sitter so I can take a vacation!).

 

[ReefKeeper64]

Thanks for the advice Chris. Back in August when I was thinking of starting over - it was leaning more towards an upgrade - which would break the bank (I get that). The only things transfering over would be the fish. Everything else would be new. (Even easier)

The only thing that concerns me with your method - I'm assuming you'd leave the rock in the tank to be treated with muriatic, yes? (Yes, this is safe, effective, and takes the least time and money). I'd be concerned about the rock (all Pukani) retaining the tap water. I'd also be concerned because the muriatic would react with the rock like a calcium reactor would - so the muriatic would be consumed and converted to Calcium Chloride - which wouldn't really help to leave it running. (No need to be concerned. The Muriatic acid will be effective. Whatever minor amount of conversion to calcium chloride will be inconsequential. You aren't adding enough acid and its just enough to sanitize the tank. Any residue will only have a side effect of temporarily pulling down your alk a bit. Once drained and refilled, you will be back to an alk of 8.0 in a day or two with the help of a little baking soda.)

I'm still leaning on a reset with a new 300. Just waiting on FAOIS to come back with their quote. Got my quote from Felix @ Reef Saavy. (Costly to upgrade and more importantly to maintain in salt water changes alone. I wouldn't try this now. Wait until you have had at least a year of success with your current tank.

The other way I'm leaning is just throwing in the towel and selling everything off. I'm tired of looking at all the aiptasia in the tank. I'm tired of being tied to the tank (I really need a fish sitter so I can take a vacation!). You spend a lot of time on RC so you have a passion for the hobby. If you want to make it ultra low maintenance, do the reset this way and your aptasia will be 100% eradicated in a week. Then make a deal with yourself that you will keep things easy with a FOWLR only setup for the next 12 months or so. I personally like fish better than coral anyways and have considered doing the same if I hit a brick wall down the road. Fish for me are by far the cheapest and easiest to maintain compared to the corals. If you don't have them already, get an auto fish feeder and a reliable ATO. Then you can take vacations and trips and you only need an occasional check in from a friend or neighbor. A small 10w pump running on a cheap UPS 24/7 is also great insurance from the occasional power outage. I crashed my previous tank 3 or 4 years ago, sold everthing and swore that I wasn't going to get back into the hobby until I retire. Low and behold, after 12 months out, I was itching to get back in and had to spend $6,000 to "do it right". If you get out, you are likely to find yourself lurking on RC like I was and you'll end up right back in after the retreat is over. Something to think about.

 

[Ted_C]

I do have an eheim auto-feeder that I keep in the sump's return well. Once a week, I refill with 1/2 tablespoon of newlife spectrum thera A and 1/2 tablespoon of newlife spectrum small fish. Once a day at 2:00 PM it rotates and feeds the tank through the return (not good - since this is a broadcast feed).

The problem is - not all the fish go for the pellet. The Bangaii and the Copperband prefer frozen mysis or live blackworms (and I've never seen those two go after the pellets). Clowns, Tang, Angelfish, Chromis, firefish and all the inverts seem to enjoy the pellets

I have a spectrapure Ultra precise ATO and a 25 gallon ATO resevoir.

 

[ReefKeeper64]

I do have an eheim auto-feeder that I keep in the sump's return well. Once a week, I refill with 1/2 tablespoon of newlife spectrum thera A and 1/2 tablespoon of newlife spectrum small fish. Once a day at 2:00 PM it rotates and feeds the tank through the return (not good - since this is a broadcast feed).

The problem is - not all the fish go for the pellet. The Bangaii and the Copperband prefer frozen mysis or live blackworms (and I've never seen those two go after the pellets). Clowns, Tang, Angelfish, Chromis, firefish and all the inverts seem to enjoy the pellets

I have a spectrapure Ultra precise ATO and a 25 gallon ATO resevoir.

I broadcast feed dry flakes with an Eheim feeder just the same way you do and it works great. I used to make a fish food made up of clams, shrimp and such and the fish would not eat flakes. When I stopped feeding gourmet food, the fish got hungry and eventually started eating flakes. They are like spoiled kids. I wouldn't worry too much about the picky eaters.

I'm glad to see you have a good ATO. Between your feeder and ATO, your system is already fairly automated. Now the only thing left is for you to decide if a reset is the right thing for you. After all, that is what your post title is, right? Only you can decide that.

Just so you know, I recently picked up these vermited snails in my own system. I will probably do a reset myself soon.

 

[ReefKeeper64]

Have you considered chloroquine phosphate? It seems to kill off a number of parasites and diseases and might be worth a shot.

 

[Ted_C]

I'm going to wait for another three or 4 months before I do anything else. The bergia have only been in since Oct 4th - I want to give them a few months in the display and the sump before I pull the reset on the existing tank or build out my dream tank.

At this point - I'm resigned to the fact that all my coral will die.

As I stated in Snake's thread - suprisingly, the Black Spiny Urchins that hitchhiked in on my one peice of live rock are mowing down the vermetid snails. What It's doing is eating the corralaine that's developed on the rocks and while it does this - I guess it's eating the snail tubes too.

I have watched it for a while (since end of August) - it has never been on any of the SPS.

 

[snake1]

I`m not going to push the reset button, I guess I will be the guy that goes in the tank and breaks off the tubes (stabs them with needles and fills with superglue) that's what I have read is the best option.....I will do this around the sps!

 

[mannysmusic]

I would try a wrasse

 

[Ted_C]

Got the quotes in from both Reef Savvy and FAOIS on my next upgrade:

72"x36"x30" Starphire with an external overflow (Ghost if it were from Reef Saavy), 3/4" glass, eurobraced - that's around 320 gallons

Steel stand to support the tank and 44" high (presents a design challenge - as something so big wont fit through the door). Would be built as two 22" high stands that would be bolted together.

Needless to say, I can't justify the cash outlay at this time. It would be upwards of 5 figures for the tank and all the new equipment I would need.

 

[Ted_C]

I might have some good news. Please God - I hope I have good news!

This weekend - I performed another 25% water change with ESV B-Ionic

I took my Carbon and GFO off-line (not by choice - I'm waiting for some plumbing parts that I couldn't get locally) to plumb it from a single pump and return the water to the filter sock (before the skimmer).

I changed the spectral output and photoperiod on the pacific suns to a natural bali program and a 12.5 hour photoperiod.

One day later - the spongeode (Montipora Confusa) that I thought was on it's way out started coming back. Polyps are out on some areas. So I'm hopeful. I started to pull it from the tank - but it was still sliming when I touched it - so I thought I'd let it go and see what happens.

The bad news: all I have left are two FAOIS frags (Pink Caddilac, an Ora marshall islands acro), the Coral Corral Spongodes (Montipora Confusa), CrazyEye's favorite frag (that his wife bought him), CrazyEye's Poccilipora?, JeffBerg's Red Montipora Digitata, Pedro's Red Montipora Digitata, jeff berg's leather and the blue squamosa clam.

 

[MrHarvard]

I might have some good news. Please God - I hope I have good news!

This weekend - I performed another 25% water change with ESV B-Ionic

I took my Carbon and GFO off-line (not by choice - I'm waiting for some plumbing parts that I couldn't get locally) to plumb it from a single pump and return the water to the filter sock (before the skimmer).

I changed the spectral output and photoperiod on the pacific suns to a natural bali program and a 12.5 hour photoperiod.

One day later - the spongeode (Montipora Confusa) that I thought was on it's way out started coming back. Polyps are out on some areas. So I'm hopeful. I started to pull it from the tank - but it was still sliming when I touched it - so I thought I'd let it go and see what happens.

The bad news: all I have left are two FAOIS frags (Pink Caddilac, an Ora marshall islands acro), the Coral Corral Spongodes (Montipora Confusa), CrazyEye's favorite frag (that his wife bought him), CrazyEye's Poccilipora?, JeffBerg's Red Montipora Digitata, Pedro's Red Montipora Digitata, jeff berg's leather and the blue squamosa clam.

Sorry to hear about all your coral loss but glad things seem to be Turing around for you. Try leaving the GFO off for a week and see how everything responds. When I started running it in a reactor after a couple of weeks my corals seemed to not like it. I was running an oversized skimmer and a fuge so I think I was over stripping the water. Hope it all turns around Ted I know you have been working hard at fixing it.