Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
the top of it needs to be at least as high as the top of your sump
note: return lines should empty drains above water line of sump or you might experience a flushing effect
180 gallon tank build
- Thread starter magdelan
- Start date
note: return lines should empty drains above water line of sump or you might experience a flushing effect
SkiFletch
New member
Remember magdelan, when in operation, you have extra water in the display tank over the teeth of your internal weir/box/whatever. Usually the water level is at LEAST 1/2" above the lowest point of the box, and often its more like 1". Knowing that a 180g has a 72x24" footprint, lets do the math. Thats 1728 cubic inches, otherwise known as 7.5 gallons of water, and that's best-case scenario. Assuming no seal leaks, no checkvalve leaks, and there's no extra water in the sump/dsb. Not to mention extra volume in your skimmer. That said, the refugium needs to be lower than that extra volume of water to prevent flooding during a power outage. And I dont know about you, but I don't like to run my system that near the edge. I'd rather build in a margin for safety in case a weir or check valve does fail. Better to have more volume in your lowest tank than less 
The water from your display tank will flow into your sump and then into your fuge,untill you run out of flow. The water level in the fuge will try to be the same as the level in the sump and spiil over. You will get the water as your tank level drops below the overflow and perhaps some extra from a siphon back through the pump from return lines submerged in your display. Gary is right about the drains. They need to be above the water line or they will probably fulsh like a toilet.
magdelan
Fish?
--I was told that I could dirrectly plumb one drain into my skimmer and let the other drain run into the skimmer side of the tank. Is the drain going into the skimmer ok?
--Would I still get a flushing noise with one drain above the water line and the other going dirrectly into the skimmer? follow?
Also, I WILL plumb the pump straight out of the bottom of the refugium with is own 5 inch wide bare bottom section.
--If I set my refugium on cinder blocks, would I alleviate the overflow issue?
--Or should I put the DSB and refugium all in the left side of the sump and use the 30g as a return section that is only 6 out of 18 inches full?
--This would allow for up to 20 gallons of water to backflow into the tank...yes???
This isn't as easy as I expected
Thanks for all of the help thus far!!!
magdelan
Fish?
Unless someone can explain how I can utilize the soon to be empty 30g tank that I will have, I am going to KISS. Is this a more effective and better design/plan??
I would still like my previous questions answered so that I can understand this beter.
Should I send the second drain (the one not connected to the skimmer) dirrectly to the refugim/DSB?
I would still like my previous questions answered so that I can understand this beter.
Should I send the second drain (the one not connected to the skimmer) dirrectly to the refugim/DSB?
jstraka1
Premium Member
The new simpler design will work just fine. I would put a filtersock under the open drain for mechanical filtration. Yes you can run the second drain to the skimmer with no problems, but you will not want very high flow going into the skimmer. I'm pretty sure you need to feed the skimmer with 1-2x system volume, that would be around 300gph. how many gallons is the return section in the drawing? that is where all the waterloss from evaporation will occur, so the bigger the better.
chrisguy
New member
I'll add my .02 from my experience. I have had a 180 with Basement Sump setup up and running since October, 2007
Having a direct flow into the skimmer as you have it will not work. The problem will be that you will get a ton of bubbles and turbulence which will massively decrease the efficiency of your skimmers performance. Additionally any time you stick your arm into the tank, the skimmer will overflow. I know this from first hand experience.
My recommendation would be to drain into the skimmer section, using filter socks as others have stated, and have a pump feed the skimmer. If your heart is set on direct feeding, the you will need a method to “calm†and buffer the flow of the water before it enters the skimmer. This can be accomplished by putting a large upside down “U†shaped section of pipe that has a gate valve on the skimmer side, so you can control the flow to the skimmer and allow the excess, turbulent flow to simply enter the skimmer section. Keep in mind that if you feed the skimmer part of your overflow water, the other part that is also dirty will go into your skimmer section and you will have to clean that regularly.
The picture below is my refugium on the top shelf with the skimmer/return section on the bottom.
![url]](/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2F%5Burl%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.kamworld.net%2Fsalt%2Fimages%2F180%2F100_0459.jpg%5B%2Furl%5D&hash=deccd32cc80648e46a04e7a67c93ba49)
I would recommend something like this to have either a dedicated refugium or you can do this for a frag tank. I have two overflow drains, one goes to the refugium which drains to the sump and the other goes to the skimmer.
You may also want to consider some of these items for your return.
![url]](/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2F%5Burl%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.kamworld.net%2Fsalt%2Fimages%2F180%2F100_0633.jpg%5B%2Furl%5D&hash=e55f0e1188f2b7b5a897fc5ea7a762f5)
There is a gate valve on the return to the tank. With Sequence pumps it’s more efficient to throttle back the pump (restrict the output side) than it is to reroute it back into the sump. Also you can see a manifold that is used to provide flow to a Carbon and Phosban reactor. This eliminated two pumps from my system. I included gate valves to control the flow and ball valves so I could shut down the flow for maintenance without having to shut off the return.
Here is a link to my web site where I documented my tank build. May give you some ideas and if you are ever in the Buffalo area, please let me know and you can stop in to see what I have. I will gladly tell you what I like and don’t like about my setup.
http://www.kamworld.net/salt/Project180.html
Having a direct flow into the skimmer as you have it will not work. The problem will be that you will get a ton of bubbles and turbulence which will massively decrease the efficiency of your skimmers performance. Additionally any time you stick your arm into the tank, the skimmer will overflow. I know this from first hand experience.
My recommendation would be to drain into the skimmer section, using filter socks as others have stated, and have a pump feed the skimmer. If your heart is set on direct feeding, the you will need a method to “calm†and buffer the flow of the water before it enters the skimmer. This can be accomplished by putting a large upside down “U†shaped section of pipe that has a gate valve on the skimmer side, so you can control the flow to the skimmer and allow the excess, turbulent flow to simply enter the skimmer section. Keep in mind that if you feed the skimmer part of your overflow water, the other part that is also dirty will go into your skimmer section and you will have to clean that regularly.
The picture below is my refugium on the top shelf with the skimmer/return section on the bottom.
I would recommend something like this to have either a dedicated refugium or you can do this for a frag tank. I have two overflow drains, one goes to the refugium which drains to the sump and the other goes to the skimmer.
You may also want to consider some of these items for your return.
There is a gate valve on the return to the tank. With Sequence pumps it’s more efficient to throttle back the pump (restrict the output side) than it is to reroute it back into the sump. Also you can see a manifold that is used to provide flow to a Carbon and Phosban reactor. This eliminated two pumps from my system. I included gate valves to control the flow and ball valves so I could shut down the flow for maintenance without having to shut off the return.
Here is a link to my web site where I documented my tank build. May give you some ideas and if you are ever in the Buffalo area, please let me know and you can stop in to see what I have. I will gladly tell you what I like and don’t like about my setup.
http://www.kamworld.net/salt/Project180.html
acdraindrps
New member
In your second drawing you have the skimmer being fed with a pump and the overflow? Is the pump just recirc?
Definately drill the 30 for the return.
Don't drain water into your fuge as you'll run into problems blowing sand everywhere. Also, you wouldn't want to bypass the baffles illustrated, you have them, might as well use them.
Forget about feeding your skimmer with your drain and use a pump. Drain both lines into your sump and use filter bags. I second what Chris said about overflowing the skimmer everytime your put your hand in your display.
I was thinking maybe you can T off a line on your return and feed it into a refugium seperate from your sump. You can ball valve this line down and make for low flow...
Definately drill the 30 for the return.
Don't drain water into your fuge as you'll run into problems blowing sand everywhere. Also, you wouldn't want to bypass the baffles illustrated, you have them, might as well use them.
Forget about feeding your skimmer with your drain and use a pump. Drain both lines into your sump and use filter bags. I second what Chris said about overflowing the skimmer everytime your put your hand in your display.
I was thinking maybe you can T off a line on your return and feed it into a refugium seperate from your sump. You can ball valve this line down and make for low flow...
magdelan
Fish?
I like these ideas Chris and acdraindrps. I defidentaly do not have my heart set on dirrectly feeding my skimmer. I just thought that it was a neat idea. Instead, I will empty both drains into a filterbag in the refugium and then drain the refugium down to the sump where the Sedra 9000 powerhead will do the work for the skimmer. After a series of baffels, I will use the left side of the tank as my return section. It will probably end up being somewhere between 80 gallons. I'll probably dedicate 1/3 of the right side for the skimmer. I'll be honest, I forgot about using filterbags. This is a great place to hold carbon and PO4 remover aswell.
I will again redesign my plan and incorporate the 30 tank above my 120 sump. The one problem I have with putting a refugium before the skimmer is that the pods will have to travel through the skimmer. Won't this kill them??
What is the best way to drain the refugium. I know that some people use weirs to do this, but I just don't feel comfortable with the idea. If I drill the 30 gallon, where on it should I drill? Upper side? Lower side? Middle? How much water do i want running through it and how much water do I want running though my sump??
I will again redesign my plan and incorporate the 30 tank above my 120 sump. The one problem I have with putting a refugium before the skimmer is that the pods will have to travel through the skimmer. Won't this kill them??
What is the best way to drain the refugium. I know that some people use weirs to do this, but I just don't feel comfortable with the idea. If I drill the 30 gallon, where on it should I drill? Upper side? Lower side? Middle? How much water do i want running through it and how much water do I want running though my sump??
Hi, Haven't been on line in a bit.Busy today picking up two border collie pups. Lot's of family love stuff.
You can use the 30g in a daisy chain arrangement per your sketch if the top of it is as high or higher than the top of the sump.
Using the second drain to the refugium( 30 g or otherwise) is a good idea in my opinion. If it is the 30g make sure your bulkhead to the sump can keep up with the flow of the drain.
I have an asm 4x. It has a pump. You don't need a gravity feed to this skimmer. A gravity feed would probably deliver too much water with the pump runing and this would mess up the mix of air and water and skimmer efficiency.The pump is what's called a needle wheel design. It chops up the bubbles giving you a nice foam. You just put this skimmer in the sump and plug it in. No additional feed is needed or desired.
Plumbing seems ahrd at first but once you start to visualize how water moves, it's not tooo difficult.
You can use the 30g in a daisy chain arrangement per your sketch if the top of it is as high or higher than the top of the sump.
Using the second drain to the refugium( 30 g or otherwise) is a good idea in my opinion. If it is the 30g make sure your bulkhead to the sump can keep up with the flow of the drain.
I have an asm 4x. It has a pump. You don't need a gravity feed to this skimmer. A gravity feed would probably deliver too much water with the pump runing and this would mess up the mix of air and water and skimmer efficiency.The pump is what's called a needle wheel design. It chops up the bubbles giving you a nice foam. You just put this skimmer in the sump and plug it in. No additional feed is needed or desired.
Plumbing seems ahrd at first but once you start to visualize how water moves, it's not tooo difficult.
Haffs09
Member
Quote, "I will again redesign my plan and incorporate the 30 tank above my 120 sump. The one problem I have with putting a refugium before the skimmer is that the pods will have to travel through the skimmer. Won't this kill them?? "
As acidraindrops suggested, I'd take a line off of your main return pump to feed the refugium. Use a gate valve to control flow. You could also tee off a line to feed a RDSB like Skifletch mentioned.
My .02 about feeding the refugium directly from the display tank...I wouldn't do it unless the fuge is bare bottom. My experience with this design is that the fuge collects a lot of detritus that isn't easily removed unless you take out some or all of your substrate too. That might be a PITA. Let all your return go to your sump where your filter bags will catch most of the stuff, and if anything is missed, it will have a chance to settle out in the rest of the sump. You should be able to syphon that out easily....you might not need filter bags at all.
If you feed the fuge from your main return line, you can take the overflow from the fuge and place it anywhere you want. It doesn't have to go to the skimmer section.
As acidraindrops suggested, I'd take a line off of your main return pump to feed the refugium. Use a gate valve to control flow. You could also tee off a line to feed a RDSB like Skifletch mentioned.
My .02 about feeding the refugium directly from the display tank...I wouldn't do it unless the fuge is bare bottom. My experience with this design is that the fuge collects a lot of detritus that isn't easily removed unless you take out some or all of your substrate too. That might be a PITA. Let all your return go to your sump where your filter bags will catch most of the stuff, and if anything is missed, it will have a chance to settle out in the rest of the sump. You should be able to syphon that out easily....you might not need filter bags at all.
If you feed the fuge from your main return line, you can take the overflow from the fuge and place it anywhere you want. It doesn't have to go to the skimmer section.
magdelan
Fish?
I read that Sequence pumps run more effecientially when they are throttled back using a gate valve and not tee'd off. When I have a free second, I plan I redrawing my design with the refugium over the sump similar to how chrisguy has his set up.
WIll I need more than one drain in my refugium if the main display is being drained with two 2 inch pipes? I would need to drain the same volume that is entering the refugium...yes?
SkiFletch
New member
Heh, well that's kinda true magdelan, but it depends... Ok here goes. A sequence pump is a good example of common high-head centrifugal pump. These pumps consist of an electrical motor which is connected via a driveshaft to a water pump (in this case centrifugal).
Now, the properties of the pump (thing that moves the water) indicate that a certain amount of work is required to move a volume of water against a specific amount of pressure drop. Given a series of different pressure drops (head pressure), we get a series of different flowrates, AND electrical power used. This can give us two curves. First, the "pump curve" aka flow curve or pressure curve. This shows how as head pressure increases, flowrate decreases, and vice versa. Sequence was kind enough to list all their pump curve data for us. They didn't actually make the curve, but with excel or similar graphing program you can. The pressure curve usually has head pressure on the Y axis and flowrate on X.
The second curve you can make is the "efficiency" curve. It has pressure drop on its X axis and watt draw on its Y axis. So an example, lets use the Hammerhead model pump as I think I heard it's name reccomended before. Head pressures of 0-16.8ft all have corresponding watt draws in the 350-375 range and flowrates of 3000gph or higher. At the next data point of 19.6 feet of head, watt draw drops to about 325 but still a high flowrate (3000gph). Thereafter, the pump portion of the assembly starts to reach it's limit as far as providing flowrate is concerned. When head pressure increases to 24 feet, the flowrate really tails off as the pressure is too much for the pump to overcome. This corresponds to lower motor speed and thus lower watt draw 265 watts in this case.
So yes, you are correct that increasing head pressure can lower the watt draw but also at a considerable cost for flowrate and very high pressures right at the nozzle, keep that in mind. If you wish, you can still tee off the main return line provided that all lines are controllable with ball/needle valves, you can still get your pump dialed in to where you want it.
My final words of concern with pump choices is to not push the envelope. While the watt draw lowers with those high head pressures, keep in mind, the pressure is getting quite high. To the point where home-made PVC pipes and pump threads done by not the most experienced of people may start to fail. Furthermore, I never believe in running a piece of equipment right near the edge of its design. And heck, if you want a lower watt draw, lower flowrate, and lower pressure, just get a smaller pump
. So my advice to you magdelan is to first figure out how much head pressure you're going to have using some of the calculators on the main page. Then, consider how much flowrate you want, and choose the pump that gives you that pressure-flow somewhere near the middle of its operating range. Sorry that was long-winded but I hope informative
magdelan
Fish?
Wow Mike!!! That is some great information. I don't know if you noticed but I decided to go with the Barracuda pump. I was comparing the Marlin to the barracuda and the Barracuda to the hammerhead. The marlin and the barracuda both put out the same amout of watts at 12 ft of preasure but the barracuda put out almost 1000 more gph. The hammerhead put out 100 more watts at 12 ft and had the same gph. So the barracuda got better watts per/hr and better flow for the amount of presure that it will be used under. I think that this pump will suit me the best.
SkiFletch
New member
Sounds good magdelan . 12' of head sounds a little conservative to me though for a basement sump. Maybe you have a short basement? Remember, you should tack on prolly another foot or two for pressure loss in the pipe. Also, use wide diameter piping, ESPECIALLY on the inlet. Go with 2" for a barracuda minimum to prevent cavitation. And I'd also suggest 2" on the return side up through the floor at least to the level of mid-tank. From there, you can manifold it out at your leisure. I realize the pump has 1.5" threads, but it runs so much better if the very first thing you do is 1.5" to 2" adapt it.
. 12' of head sounds a little conservative to me though for a basement sump. Maybe you have a short basement? Remember, you should tack on prolly another foot or two for pressure loss in the pipe. Also, use wide diameter piping, ESPECIALLY on the inlet. Go with 2" for a barracuda minimum to prevent cavitation. And I'd also suggest 2" on the return side up through the floor at least to the level of mid-tank. From there, you can manifold it out at your leisure. I realize the pump has 1.5" threads, but it runs so much better if the very first thing you do is 1.5" to 2" adapt it.
