2 Mature Clowns in a Biocube 14g??

[deangelr]

But seriously where did that quote come from? genbio?

 

[MarineBioHSU]

In addition, it takes "energy" (( for lack of a better term )) for an anemone to produce eggs/sperm. There is a good chance that if the anemone is in poor conditions that it won't have the extra energy to produce said eggs/sperm.

Again, wrong. Gametogenisis requires significantly less energy than asexual fission, hence asexual fission occuring during periods of plenty. The energy consumption required to split, de-differentiate and then re-differentiate cells into endodermal and mesogleas cells etc requires a huge energy investment. In healthy anemones, gametes are present year round in a state of latency so to speak, and can be rapidly prepared for relase with little energy consumption. This has been shown many times over in histological sections of gonad samples extracted from numerous anemone species, to include Entacmaea quadricolor (Scott and Harrison 2006).

 

[kingfisherflesh]

You just compared anemone reproduction to me and my offspring dying in a house fire?

Any situation where your conditions are killing you, you cannot move, and your offspring must be stuck in the same area with the same limitations will do. Doesnt matter how many you will drop eventually the "stresses" will kill you.

You are also sacrificing the chance that by sexually reproducing you will run into another gamete that has coding for better coping with this situation.

THEREFORE increased reproductive success, therefore increased numbers of descendants.

The stats are much better on that, trust me on this one.

 

[davocean]

No biological proof what-so-ever.

I suggest you look up, take a gander at the long time running sticky 27 clowns thread by Mobert.
You will see a perfect example of someone who knows what they are talking about when it comes to BTA's and induced reproduction.
In a tank full of BTA's, if she wants one to split, she simply over feeds that nem, and voila, works like a charm.
There is your evidence.
That is just one very obvious example for you.

 

[Toddrtrex]

But seriously where did that quote come from? genbio?

That is why I wanted a link, not just the cut and paste. Reminded me of the nature shows, where it finally rains after the dry season and the plants come to life.

 

[MelloW33]

That is a bit odd to me too. Not sure I understand the metaphor (( or is it a simile, always had issues with those )).

simile; metaphor - same thing to me. I couldn't stand english class in school.

 

[MarineBioHSU]

Good luck, my boss is doing his this week.

"Cant wait" till I am in the same shoes. The way Wisconsin is treating our scientists I am going to need to switch states before I do any sort of career advancement like that.

I think that I am going to bow out of this with: I am sorry if I have come across in the wrong way.

I think that what works for a hobbyist as a means to split a cnidarian is what works for them.

I also believe what I have learned as part of my higher education, and my occupation of keeping these animals alive in a research/educational capacity at an institute of higher education.

+1 to we are all here to learn, and I think that both sides can exchange information and leave being smarter...well maybe not all of us

Stick with it man! I thought about applying to Madison for my masters/PhD, but decided that was not the best place....

 

[deangelr]

Again, wrong. Gametogenisis requires significantly less energy than asexual fission, hence asexual fission occuring during periods of plenty. The energy consumption required to split, de-differentiate and then re-differentiate cells into endodermal and mesogleas cells etc requires a huge energy investment. In healthy anemones, gametes are present year round in a state of latency so to speak, and can be rapidly prepared for relase with little energy consumption. This has been shown many times over in histological sections of gonad samples extracted from numerous anemone species, to include Entacmaea quadricolor (Scott and Harrison 2006).

I think you are a little backwards on this one.. ever heard of "the cost of sex"

 

[deangelr]

Where are you attending school now?

 

[MarineBioHSU]

I suggest you look up, take a gander at the long time running sticky 27 clowns thread by Mobert.
You will see a perfect example of someone who knows what they are talking about when it comes to BTA's and induced reproduction.
In a tank full of BTA's, if she wants one to split, she simply over feeds that nem, and voila, works like a charm.
There is your evidence.
That is just one very obvious example for you.

You are still missing the point....what makes you think they are dividing due to STRESS from OVERFEEDING? Why do you not think that they are simply reproducing asexually as a result of the influx of energy, aka more food = better conditions..so time to split? Occam's razor....

 

[MelloW33]

Any situation where your conditions are killing you, you cannot move, and your offspring must be stuck in the same area with the same limitations will do. Doesnt matter how many you will drop eventually the "stresses" will kill you.

You are also sacrificing the chance that by sexually reproducing you will run into another gamete that has coding for better coping with this situation.

THEREFORE increased reproductive success, therefore increased numbers of descendants.

The stats are much better on that, trust me on this one.

So using your ridiculous comparision, I would sexually reproduce with something fireproof in order for an offspring to survive?

 

[Toddrtrex]

Here ya go, let me know if I need to keep going:

Asexual vs. sexual reproduction

"Organisms that reproduce through asexual reproduction tend to grow in number exponentially. However, because they rely on mutation for variations in their DNA, all members of the species have similar vulnerabilities. Organisms that reproduce sexually yield a smaller number of offspring, but the large amount of variation in their genes makes them less susceptible to disease.

Many organisms can reproduce sexually as well as asexually. Aphids, slime molds, sea anemones, some species of starfish (by fragmentation), and many plants are examples. When environmental factors are favorable, asexual reproduction is employed to exploit suitable conditions for survival such as an abundant food supply, adequate shelter, favorable climate, disease, optimum pH or a proper mix of other lifestyle requirements. Populations of these organisms increase exponentially via asexual reproductive strategies to take full advantage of the rich supply resources.

When food sources have been depleted, the climate becomes hostile, or individual survival is jeopardized by some other adverse change in living conditions, these organisms switch to sexual forms of reproduction. Sexual reproduction ensures a mixing of the gene pool of the species. The variations found in offspring of sexual reproduction allow some individuals to be better suited for survival and provide a mechanism for selective adaptation to occur. In addition, sexual reproduction usually results in the formation of a life stage that is able to endure the conditions that threaten the offspring of an asexual parent. Thus, seeds, spores, eggs, pupae, cysts or other "over-wintering" stages of sexual reproduction ensure the survival during unfavorable times and the organism can "wait out" adverse situations until a swing back to suitability occurs."

Tobler, M. & Schlupp,I. (2005) Parasites in sexual and asexual mollies (Poecilia, Poeciliidae, Teleostei): a case for the Red Queen? Biol. Lett. 1 (2): 166-168.
Zimmer, Carl. Parasite Rex: Inside the Bizarre World of Nature's Most Dangerous Creatures, New York: Touchstone, 2001.
"Allogamy, cross-fertilization, cross-pollination, hybridization" (2.1 ed.). 2002.
"Allogamy" (27 ed.). 2004.

Since you never provided a link for your copy and paste, I looked it up on google -- it is just a wiki page --- come on, you can do better than that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproduction

 

[MarineBioHSU]

I think you are a little backwards on this one.. ever heard of "the cost of sex"

I have, and I am afraid that I fail to see how I am misguided in this instance, would you mind trying to explain what you mean a little more? I have never seen evidence that sexual reproduction in anemones is more costly than asexual reproduction...

 

[MelloW33]

You are still missing the point....what makes you think they are dividing due to STRESS from OVERFEEDING? Why do you not think that they are simply reproducing asexually as a result of the influx of energy, aka more food = better conditions..so time to split? Occam's razor....

Hey MarineBio, so can you tell me why my e. quadracolor would split when I put it in a 5g bucket with no light or flow? Surely it's not because of better conditions.

 

[MarineBioHSU]

Since you never provided a link for your copy and paste, I looked it up on google -- it is just a wiki page --- come on, you can do better than that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproduction

Hold on, I am trying to figure out how to scan some documents and save, then post them on here...but I kind of suck at computers lol.

I posted that citation becaouse it would provide other references for you guys to explore in the mean time.

 

[deangelr]

Thanks Todd.. I was just gonna do that.. I like how were getting the professor treatment with Wiki's

 

[Jacwil]

I respect everyones opinion here, and indeed many of the folks who replied have considerable experience, so please do not take my advice/experience has a disregard for the aforementioned advice.

In regards to the space issues, while I FULLY agree that even if a fish can "fit" in a tank so to say, it shouldn't necessarily be foreced to live in that space. However, clownfish are very territorial fish and typically attached to a spawning/home site. I have maintained breeding pairs of many clownfish species in 5g tanks, and in fact often times I keep Ocellaris/Percula pairs in 6"x6"x6" cubes with no problems. I used to keep them in ten gallon tanks, but got tired of wasting all the space when the fish would not ever leave their tile house, not even to eat. In my opinion a 14g is plenty large for a pair of marroons, PROVIDED you keep the water quality up.

Likewise a 14g Biocube is also plenty large for a BTA, however this is of course dependant upon maintenance of water quality etc. Additionally I would be inclined to seek out a captive propagated BTA from a line that is known to stay smaller and split frequently, that way in the event of over-crowding you can remove some of the clones.

Best of luck.

The best advice in this thread by far! It's all about husbandry and the chosen specimens.

 

[MelloW33]

Hold on, I am trying to figure out how to scan some documents and save, then post them on here...but I kind of suck at computers lol.

I posted that citation becaouse it would provide other references for you guys to explore in the mean time.

You could save them in a photobucket album. I've found that's the easiest way for me to post pictures.

 

[WDLV]

HOWEVER, I am going to disagree with you -- and I would like to see some source material to back up your claims that asexual fission is not used during times of stress.

And, to be honest, it is hard to take in your information when you start off by insulting us.

+1

Asexual reproduction has been reported among many other hobbyists in times of stress. I've seen this in my own systems as well as others'. It also happens when conditions are optimal and the animals are large enough to do so.
You asked why they would do it in a time of stress where conditions weren't optimal. The answer is because it doubles it's chances of keeping its DNA in existance. Another thing they often do is release from the substrate and float away. If the anemones split then float away their DNA is twice as likely to survive in a more favorable location.

 

[MarineBioHSU]

Hey MarineBio, so can you tell me why my e. quadracolor would split when I put it in a 5g bucket with no light or flow? Surely it's not because of better conditions.

I can give you my theory. Times of plenty are what stimulate asexual reproduction in anemones, in tropical intertidal zones it has been shown that anemones frequently divide during low tide, there are a variety of factors why this may be prefferential to high tide, which is of course associated with temperature fluctuations, drop in DO levels etc...all of which you simulated when you placed the anemone in a bucket.