2 pairs of percular clowns in a 165 gallon aquarium?

I have never once mis-stated anything that has occurred in my tanks -- what would be the point? ?

I don't think Randy was implying that you were, but more that a lot of people will. I agree with him; people often will pass off information that's essentially here-say as personal experience. They also like to vote in polls just to vote; or to vote for the thing they think is right or think should be right. I agree with you that there's not much point, but people do it.

where I figured some portion of the responses were just to confound the interpretation, or were voting for what sounded good to them, etc. :)

Yep.

Including those who would claim success in keeping more than two clowns long-term whether they actually had or not, just because they resent being told that they shouldn't--not can't, just shouldn't--do something. ;)

And yep. :D
 
Including those who would claim success in keeping more than two clowns long-term whether they actually had or not, just because they resent being told that they shouldn't--not can't, just shouldn't--do something.

Absolutely. :)
 
I think it's unfair to disparage the input of the many experienced aquarists here who offer their advice based on many years of trial and error. They're not trying to be spoilsports or killjoys: they're trying to keep people from making the same costly mistakes that they themselves have often made. I'd be willing to bet that for every lucky reefkeeper who has somehow managed the more-than-two-clowns balancing act, there are many more who have tried it and failed.
I think it's unfair to disparage the input of someone who's complaining about getting wrong information.

The problem in giving a blanket "no" answer, when the answer isn't really that clear, is it assumes too much about the poster who's asking the question. You don't know what his level of dedication or resources is. It's just as easy --and more respectful-- to quote the detailed info in the faq letting the person make his own decision.

"who offer their advice based on many years of trial and error"
There needs to be a distinction between years of trial and error and years of reading posts on this board
. They are not one and the same. I'm not saying we shouldn't learn from other posters. Obviously that's the wonderful point of this board. I'm saying there's a danger of latching on to common consensus and generalities that don't apply to every person and every situation and that we should not be cavalier about handing out no's.
 
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I have given/sold clownfish to fellow hobbyist I have met through the local reef club thinking that my babies will do better than those that I sell to the local fish store. I have to say that it is rare that the hobbyist still has the clowns a year later. More often than not, they met with some demise. I would bet that less than 5% of clowns that are sold at pet stores live a year. Sad, but I think maybe true.
 
I think it's unfair to disparage the input of someone who's complaining about getting wrong information.

The problem in giving a blanket "no" answer, when the answer isn't really that clear, is it assumes too much about the poster who's asking the question. You don't know what his level of dedication or resources is. It's just as easy --and more respectful-- to quote the detailed info in the faq letting the person make his own decision.

"who offer their advice based on many years of trial and error"
There needs to be a distinction between years of trial and error and years of reading posts on this board
. They are not one and the same. I'm not saying we shouldn't learn from other posters. Obviously that's the wonderful point of this board. I'm saying there's a danger of latching on to common consensus and generalities that don't apply to every person and every situation and that we should not be cavalier about handing out no's.

What wrong information? The fact that a few aquarists have successfully kept more than two clowns in the same system for many years doesn't mean that the naysayers here are giving wrong information when they say that this is a plan that generally doesn't work out in the long run. It just means that those people are the exception to the rule.

When information appears not just in online forums, but also in magazines, books, and other professional literature, I think it's likely to be fairly reliable. That doesn't mean that, in spite of conventional wisdom, some people haven't successfully kept more than two clowns together, or trained orangespotted filefish to eat prepared foods, or kept multiple species of angelfishes in the same system (etc.). However, it does mean that these people are either exceptionally dedicated or exceptionally lucky, or both. Informing new aquarists of this is doing both them and the animals they're planning to keep a favor. I agree that a blanket "no" may not be helpful, but for the most part, what I've seen in these threads is experienced posters saying that it usually doesn't work. That's not a blanket statement.

As far as the second comment goes, I don't know how you'd make that distinction obvious, unless the moderators started requiring everyone to post a sig file detailing how long they've kept SW aquaria and which animals they've kept. I suspect that posters who dismiss as biased and/or anecdotal any advice or experience that contradicts what they want to do are really just looking for endorsement, not advice. And that's their prerogative, naturally.
 
What wrong information? The fact that a few aquarists have successfully kept more than two clowns in the same system for many years doesn't mean that the naysayers here are giving wrong information when they say that this is a plan that generally doesn't work out in the long run. It just means that those people are the exception to the rule.

When information appears not just in online forums, but also in magazines, books, and other professional literature, I think it's likely to be fairly reliable. That doesn't mean that, in spite of conventional wisdom, some people haven't successfully kept more than two clowns together, or trained orangespotted filefish to eat prepared foods, or kept multiple species of angelfishes in the same system (etc.). However, it does mean that these people are either exceptionally dedicated or exceptionally lucky, or both. Informing new aquarists of this is doing both them and the animals they're planning to keep a favor. I agree that a blanket "no" may not be helpful, but for the most part, what I've seen in these threads is experienced posters saying that it usually doesn't work. That's not a blanket statement.

As far as the second comment goes, I don't know how you'd make that distinction obvious, unless the moderators started requiring everyone to post a sig file detailing how long they've kept SW aquaria and which animals they've kept. I suspect that posters who dismiss as biased and/or anecdotal any advice or experience that contradicts what they want to do are really just looking for endorsement, not advice. And that's their prerogative, naturally.
I didn't say it was surprising or avoidable. I just said it happens. As a matter of fact I'm sure I've have been guilty of it myself. It's it normal pitfall of this medium. But what I strongly object to is when a poster is condescending and rude like Bonsai was.

I counted 6 definite "no way"s on the first page of this thread. That's their personal judgment call I guess. But I think it's more respectful of a poster to just point them to the sticky rather than give the quick answer.
 
I counted 6 definite "no way"s on the first page of this thread. That's their personal judgment call I guess. But I think it's more respectful of a poster to just point them to the sticky rather than give the quick answer.

Ahhhhh...OK. I think I get what you're saying better now. I was reading it as if you were talking about all of the responses that advised against keeping more than two clowns per tank (I think we're going to have to come up with an acronym for this on the board, because it gets repetitive to write out), rather than the quick, definitive "no" answers. :)
 
Haha I like the acronym idea.. And I agree that we need to be careful not to put out blanket answers regaurdless of the question.. There are few absolutes in this hobby.
 
But what I strongly object to is when a poster is condescending and rude like Bonsai was.

I was responding to the fact that the OP asked the EXACT SAME QUESTION that was asked three threads earlier. This question has been asked, argued, and answered dozens of times in the last few years. Some people don't care - and you obviously fit into that category. Some people do care, because they really try to help people out with knowledge or advice, and get tired of answering the same question over and over and over. Too bad for us I guess is your response. Who made us so important? If we don't like it, why don't we go somewhere else? And that, in a nutshell, is why many experienced aquarists no longer post on this site.

Whatever, Angel. The irony of your own statement is probably lost on you.
 
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Bonsai, I hope you won't take negative comments to heart. I really value the input of the experienced members of this forum; I know you've all kept me from making some mistakes before.
 
Bonsai, I hope you won't take negative comments to heart. I really value the input of the experienced members of this forum; I know you've all kept me from making some mistakes before.

I'm really not that upset. I know that there are people out there who don't share my worldview - they cut me off on the freeway, refuse to use their turn signals, and won't put down their cellphones and drive :) At the same time, I am from a large family where I had plenty of siblings who would always call me out when I did something knuckleheaded.

HOWEVER... this isn't about calling each other names. It is (or should be) about trying to answer this question ONCE AND FOR ALL so that we can put it behind us and move forward to try to advance the state of knowledge for clown and anemone care.

It is the way of scientific research, and why scientists try so hard to meticulously footnote and reference all prior work - so that each published article moves forward the state of knowledge of the human race. If people keep arguing the same question over and over, when do we start to move forward?
 
I was responding to the fact that the OP asked the EXACT SAME QUESTION that was asked three threads earlier. This question has been asked, argued, and answered dozens of times in the last few years. Some people don't care - and you obviously fit into that category. Some people do care, because they really try to help people out with knowledge or advice, and get tired of answering the same question over and over and over. Too bad for us I guess is your response. Who made us so important? If we don't like it, why don't we go somewhere else? And that, in a nutshell, is why many experienced aquarists no longer post on this site.

Whatever, Angel. The irony of your own statement is probably lost on you.
No, it's not and I have the same worthless excuse as you. What I regret is having backed myself into criticizing some people I know pretty well and really respect.

It's not that I don't care and am saying "too bad for you". I got tired of answering the same questions over and over and took a long break from it. I want to be helpful, I think we all do. But I can't give helpful thoughtful answers if I'm burned out.
 
Alright kids -- time to start playing nice. Don't have the time nor the desire to babysit this thread.

BonsaiNut -- you have stated several times that you are tired of this question -- easy, stop posting in the threads about it.
 
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