$20 Feed Timer Short and Sweet!

[Avast Marine]

All righty oh master of the relay..............

The only thing that has stopped me from building this auto backup system is that I would like it to run my return pump that is set on a feed timer (differant tank controlled by Neptune). Is there a way I could wire the relay a little differant so that it senses the power loss from the wall and keeps the pump going instead of sensing the loss of power from the pump?

 

[BeanAnimal]

Not sure what your asking...

If you want the setup to run on the neptune cycle no matter what the source (mains or inverter) you would simply use the power on the OUTLET TO TANK to to be the source for the switched power for the neptune.

Assuming the relay you show above is one of your addition that will function as the battery backup auto transfer switch.
...I am not familiar with the neptune. Is the relay to control the pump built in or is it an external relay? Where does the powert for the pump come from and how is it switched (forget the UPS for now).

 

[Avast Marine]

The power comes from the wall to a power strip like thing (dc8). The neptune controller switches each outlet independantly for 8 outlets. The pump is plugged into one of the outlets. So when I hit the feed button on the controller the Neptune tells the outlet to cut the power for the pump. If I were to use the diagram as shown below and the NO contacts were wired to the plug on the dc8 and the pump was wired on the output then the relay would transfer to the power source through the inverter and deep cycle battery and my return pump wouldn't turn off when I hit feed, just switch to the alternate power source.
I don't want to run everything on the dc8 in the event of a power failure or I could just plug the NO contacts to the wall and the output to the dc8.
It's only been 3 days you can't fire me yet
:lol:

 

[marino420td]

Again, Nice job. Can someone explain exactly what a relay switch is? Where can you buy them (Radio Shack)? How much?

 

[Horace]

Marino, a relay is used to switch power on and off. It has a coil that when energized either connects or disconnects (depends on type of relay) a set of contacts that allow current to flow through the circuit.

 

[Horace]

Dandy, Nice job btw! I could really use something like that actually. Not only for feeding, but for when i dose bacteria to my tank (zeovit) so it doesnt get skimmed out right away.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Ahh no problem...

So you want the PUMP on the UPS but not the whole DC8. When I get some time this afternoon I will tryand get you a diagram.

Let me give you a hint.... you will need a relay

 

[BeanAnimal]

I am not goint to have time to draw a diagram today... I just got swamped with work.

In any case try and follow along

1) Get a DOUBLE POLE DOUBLE THROW (DPDT) relay with a 120V.
2) Wire the RELAY COIL to the MAINS VOLTAGE from the wall
3) Wire the OUTPUT OF THE DC8 to NO (normally open) contacts of the relay. We are going to switch BOTH HOT AND NEUTRAL (more about this in a minute)
4) Wire the UPS OUTPUT to the NC (normally closed) contacts of they relay.
5) Wire the PUMP to the COMMON of the RELAY.

Now BE CAREFUL. YOU MUST ensure that all of the HOTS are on the same POLE and the NEUTRALS on the OTHER POLE. Otherwise we will have problems. A DOUBLE POLE relay is 2 seperate sets of contacts controlled by a single COIL. It is the same as having 2 side by side relays. ONE for HOT and the OTHER for NEUTRAL. If you are still puzzles please ask!

We are going to switch BOTH HOT AND NEUTRAL for safety. Just in case the UPS is on a different breaker than the DC8, or something is wired backwards somewhere in your house.

Very simple.... when the mains power is ON, the coil is energized and the contacts are pulled over to the DC8. When power fails, the col drops out and the contacts fall back to the UPS.

 

[Qwiv]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7911907#post7911907 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dandy7200
The power comes from the wall to a power strip like thing (dc8). The neptune controller switches each outlet independantly for 8 outlets. The pump is plugged into one of the outlets. So when I hit the feed button on the controller the Neptune tells the outlet to cut the power for the pump. If I were to use the diagram as shown below and the NO contacts were wired to the plug on the dc8 and the pump was wired on the output then the relay would transfer to the power source through the inverter and deep cycle battery and my return pump wouldn't turn off when I hit feed, just switch to the alternate power source.
I don't want to run everything on the dc8 in the event of a power failure or I could just plug the NO contacts to the wall and the output to the dc8.
It's only been 3 days you can't fire me yet
:lol:

Unless you are using the neptune to provide some other control to your return pump, why not take it off the neptune all together and install a timer as shown above. There are a few ways that you can do what you want, but it gets more complicated and I just can't see the reason why? Keep it Simple.

 

[Avast Marine]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7914039#post7914039 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Qwiv
Unless you are using the neptune to provide some other control to your return pump, why not take it off the neptune all together and install a timer as shown above. There are a few ways that you can do what you want, but it gets more complicated and I just can't see the reason why? Keep it Simple.

I threw keep it simp[le out the window a long time ago.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/58279226@N00/166182158/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://static.flickr.com/49/166182158_fa97a28369_o.jpg" width="600" height="449" alt="wired" /></a>
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/58279226@N00/166182155/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://static.flickr.com/55/166182155_8085447c6d_o.jpg" width="600" height="449" alt="final" /></a>


And yes I use the neptune to control the return pump in a variety of differant scenerios including automatic waterchanges daily as well as the feed cycle daily, so I don't have any intention of taking it off the Neptune.

Right now the outlet of the dc8 runs through the dj panel to give me a overide switch to turn the pump off without going through the controller menus, it also serves as a visual indication (by the light rocker switches) that one of the circuits is energized.

Thanks Bean, I'll have to read that a little more carefully tonight. Right now it sort of makes sence, but I have to lay it out on the table to visualize it.

 

[Qwiv]

OK, here is the logic you need on the controller

Keep that set-up. Now insert a normaly closed relay just between what you have labled "outlet to tank" and the relay you are currently using. This relay should be energized by your DC8 which will complete the circuit you have drawn. When the neptune removes the power to the relay, the connection to the return pump should turn off and the pump will not run on battery or line voltage.

I think Bean is trying to describe a way to do this with a single relay, but I don't think that works as the (2) relays don't share a common function. I may just be confused as bean normally gets those things right.

 

[Avast Marine]

Well I am going to start collecting the supplies for that project anyway. Thaks for the advice Qwiv, that seems to make a little more sense to me. I still am a little confused. It will be several weeks before I have time to work on that project so I may just start a new thread whin the time comes and PM you and Bean to see if I can get some advice on that new thread.

Thanks again everybody and I hope at least one person out there builds a FEED TIMER .

 

[Qwiv]

No worries, I can mod you sketch to show you what I am thinking. I am more interested in what Bean has up his sleeve. I am a visual person, so I need to see a pick.

Also, on the feed timer, it was mentioned before that you can just buy the SPDT version of the switch and you are done. I discovered this while buying one at HD. For some reason a SPDT version was in my box. I was excited. While looking for another I saw that the one I had was like $40 bucks, in lieu of $10 I paid at HD. after looking a bit, I found this
http://www.electricsuppliesonline.com/inffencointi8.html
Does everything you want for $36 +s/h. This is for the not so DIY folks out there.

 

[BeanAnimal]

qwiv... I think your confused

My setup will allow the DC8 to controll the pump under mains power and the ups to control the pump when mains power fails.

He needs a second relay to do that... and that is what I outlined (the "UPS" is either an off the shelf true sine wave unit, or his proposed DIY setup with an sine wave inverter, charger and relay)

I am not sure what your proposed circuit would do, as I am not quite sure I understand what you are thinking.

I also assumed that he is not running the neptune itself off of the UPS and hence assumed that he does not need "feed" or other control over the pump during an outage. In other words during an outage, the pump will RUN until the UPS dies.

I can of course come up with something that allows controlled operation under UPS and MAINS power (of course the neptune itself would have to be on the UPS as well).

Bean

 

[Avast Marine]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7915615#post7915615 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
qwiv... I think your confused

My setup will allow the DC8 to controll the pump under mains power and the ups to control the pump when mains power fails.

He needs a second relay to do that... and that is what I outlined (the "UPS" is either an off the shelf true sine wave unit, or his proposed DIY setup with an sine wave inverter, charger and relay)

I am not sure what your proposed circuit would do, as I am not quite sure I understand what you are thinking.

I also assumed that he is not running the neptune itself off of the UPS and hence assumed that he does not need "feed" or other control over the pump during an outage. In other words during an outage, the pump will RUN until the UPS dies.

I can of course come up with something that allows controlled operation under UPS and MAINS power (of course the neptune itself would have to be on the UPS as well).

Bean

Yes I only want to power the pump (60w) not the entire controller (700w). So now that I am starting to understand the circuit I agree with what you have proposed Bean.

I had not even cosidered a sine wave inverter. This could get expensive! My back up plan was to just get a 12v bilge pump with a DIY venturi and eliminate the inverter entirely. I haven't seen a bilge pump that I could asthetically live with permanantly mounted in the tank. Now I have to give this some more thought.

 

[BeanAnimal]

You will need a sine wave inverter... without a doubt.

 

[Qwiv]

Bean
I keep reading what you wrote, and I think I am understanding it. They accomplish the exact same thing. The only difference is you using the main to keep the coil energized which connects the circuit for the DC8. When there is a lose of power, the coil breaks the DC8 circuit and completes the battery power circuit. Correct?

I was thinking you could use the DC8 to energize a relay which would break the circuit to the pump. So you program the neptune to turn the pump on, when you actually want it off. You can do that with the neptune. The battery back-up would be controlled seperatly as drawn.

They both do the same thing except I might save a little electricity because I am only energizing the coil when the pump is off, not on. Either way, they perform the same. I was thinking that switching the hot and neutral was over the top, but you are right, it is safer. I would just confirm everything is wired correctly and on the same circuit, then only switch the hot, but if you don't know how to do that, switching both is a better idea.

Here is a good thread on a battery back-up power system.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64918&highlight=battery

 

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7916093#post7916093 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Qwiv
Bean
I keep reading what you wrote, and I think I am understanding it. They accomplish the exact same thing.[/quot] Not really... but we will get to that. I hat eto explain it to you, because I feel that it would come to you after some more thought!

The only difference is you using the main to keep the coil energized which connects the circuit for the DC8. When there is a lose of power, the coil breaks the DC8 circuit and completes the battery power circuit. Correct?

I am using the mains to pull the coil in. The PUMP is attached to the COMMON terminal of the relay. The DC8 to the NO contacts, and the UPS to the NC contacts.

During mains power, the DC8 is active, as it is plugged into the wall. The relay is energized, so the contacts are pulled closed. This sends the power from the DC8 to the PUMP (the DC8 then has full control of the pump.

During a mains power interuption. The coil is dropped out and the contacts flop open. This connects the UPS to the pump.

I was thinking you could use the DC8 to energize a relay which would break the circuit to the pump. So you program the neptune to turn the pump on, when you actually want it off. You can do that with the neptune. The battery back-up would be controlled seperatly as drawn.

Could be done with a double pole relay... but remember there are two power sources for the pump. The DC8 (mains) and the UPS. You need to switch between those. Instead you have simply created a "NOT GATE".

They both do the same thing except I might save a little electricity because I am only energizing the coil when the pump is off, not on.

Again unless I am not uderstanding your circuit description, it will not work like you think. If you could draw it out, that would be great.

I was thinking that switching the hot and neutral was over the top, but you are right, it is safer. I would just confirm everything is wired correctly and on the same circuit, then only switch the hot, but if you don't know how to do that, switching both is a better idea.

It could be done with just the hot, but there are just to many odd situations that can arise. A distinct problem is plugging the UPS into one branch circuit, and the DC8 into another. You could end up with a serious problem (even 220 volts if the branches are on opposite legs). Switching the neutral also ensures that there are no goofy neutral problems caused by the UPS.

While we are on the subject, I would just buy a premanufactured UPS to power the return pump. By the time you buy a deep cycle battery, inverter, relay and all the other misc. electric items you need, a UPS is about the same price.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?SubscriptionId=0GKY5T9AP29X0E3X4XG2&n=172282
This would keep a powerhead running for a few hours or your return pump for an hour or so. I don't know how many hours of opperation you are looking for.

This UPS systems will not work and pose a HUGE risk to the pump and ups itself. He will need to by a true sine wave unit to run a pump on. Those little APCs put out a really bad step wave.

lemme know if I can be of further help.

 

[itZme]

dandy7200, nice job on the DIY mechanical timer. It does save some work for those electrically challenged reefers out there.

Bean, do you have any experience or an idea how long the Radio Shack DPDT 120vAC RELAY could stand being energized? I was going to use this type of a system for powering things like moonlights on the same timer as T5 using the NC side of the relay but was afraid of having the relay energized for roughly 10 hrs straight.

I think they do claim to be "continuous duty" but running them for power outages only would seem to push them to the limits in a short period of time.

Thanks,
-- Kevin

 

[BeanAnimal]

That is a hard one to answer. The hold in current on them is rather small. Usually it is a repetative duty cycle and high arc loads the kill them (weld the contacts or simply wear them out). The coils usually don't burn out. They are likely Omrons (at least last time I look, (4LY series comes to mind, but then again the 4LYs may be 12V coils). You may want to call omron and ask a techie... or just try it out and wait for it to fail