2300G Cylinder - Preview

[Diablo]

Robvdv,

I think perhaps this is better.

If I build the partition 6" (150mm) shy of water level and then put in egg crate, I will be able to achieve all 3 objectives with low risk of blockage or overflow.

What do you think?

BTW, you know you're a nut-job wen it takes longer to build something in sketchup than it would take to fabricate in real life. Cut to shape eggcrate sure was a pain in the bum!

 

[Elliott]

fyi: per the experience of others on this forum white eggcrate may be associated with algae growth, black or clear has not

how much flow are you planning to run through your sump? 2.5 x DT vol is 5750/hr, I would think your toothed overflow would handle that, if not you could slow it down to 1.5 DT vol, even better contact time, or knock out a tooth or two

I shared your opinion on disease until I introduced a 1" wrasse that looked healthy, I ran a small fish load in my 300g DT, 600g total system, had no disease, minimal stress, within days the wrasse was covered with ich, the strain was so virulent it wiped out all my fish with days except a few, some several years old, nothing I could do, now I run a separate QT

per your drawing you have the circulation pumps recessed in the overflow, won't they quickly drain your overflow?

 

[Dante_JoseCuerv]

:eek1::eek1::eek1:

Those things are like Vortecs on roids!!!

 

[robvdv]

If I build the partition 6" (150mm) shy of water level and then put in egg crate, I will be able to achieve all 3 objectives with low risk of blockage or overflow.

Very cunning. Just be careful that the pumps fit _very_ snugly into the holes provided for them. I've also had anemones sucked into this gap. Consider using a synthetic material like shade cloth to block it up properly. I'm also a little concerned the pump may blow itself back out of the hole. What's holding it in position?

Only one other concern, that you're sacrificing a lot of space there just for your pumps. Any way you can free some of it up again, keeping the functionality?

BTW, you know you're a nut-job wen it takes longer to build something in sketchup than it would take to fabricate in real life. Cut to shape eggcrate sure was a pain in the bum!

I think "Intersect with model" will do that for you neatly in Sketchup IIRC.

Sketchup is an extremely useful tool. I used extensively when designing my tank and greenhouse. Helped solve a lot of spatial problems.

 

[Diablo]

robvdv

Just be careful that the pumps fit _very_ snugly into the holes provided for them. I've also had anemones sucked into this gap.

Good tip... thanks. Hadn't really considered it, but I can see that happening.

I'm also a little concerned the pump may blow itself back out of the hole. What's holding it in position?

I haven't drawn in the pump mounting because I haven't figured it out yet... the hydro wizards have 4 x 5mm metric tapped screw holes in the base. I need to come up with a means to solidly hold them in place while alowing relatively simple removal for cleaning (the thrust at 100% could move a small boat).

Only one other concern, that you're sacrificing a lot of space there just for your pumps. Any way you can free some of it up again, keeping the functionality?

I will try to minimise the size of the partition, but this end of the tank will be aquascaped as a reef flat that will start just under the partition height (maybe 18" below the surface) and taper down to a drop-off at the middle of the tank. The partition will be relatively well hidden under the structure.

Elliot

fyi: per the experience of others on this forum white eggcrate may be associated with algae growth, black or clear has not

Thanks. I will steer clear of white.

per your drawing you have the circulation pumps recessed in the overflow, won't they quickly drain your overflow?

If you look at the drawing, the rectangular "box" is the actual overflow (water tight). The other partition is purely for flow control, a place to hide equipment and for animal safety.

RE: your wrasse story... thanks. I am now pausing for consideration. I guess it all comes down to whether I belive that a single pass through a well sized, well maintained UV unit can make the system safe?

 

[Diablo]

Those things are like Vortecs on roids!!!

Yes they are!

 

[Claudio D]

Hi Diablo

I am amazed by your tank project, but I have some comments I would like to share

Your 2 hydro wizards totals 100.000 gals per hour, in no way that set up will guarantee proper flow over the overflow with out a insupportable noise, remember that the suction of each hydro wizards is located in the secluded area

Even if you cut down power from the hydro wizards, you will have a much lower level inside the "protected area" that will jeopardize the inner overflow for the return pump

Last, if the water levels drop too much on this small area, your hydro wizards will suction air ! I have tunze 6305 (way smaller than the hydro wizards) and they create a suction vortex if placed less than 6 inches deep

I suggest that the structure where you have placed the hydro wizards will made completely of perforated plexiglas (or egg crate) and you define your water level with the inner overflow for your return pump

You will have a quieter tank and a very strong current behind your rock work that will help oxygenate and clean it

thanks for your beautiful project

regards

Claudio


Caracas, Venezuela

 

[JnA Design]

First I would like to start off by saying that your tank is amazing and it is scary that the level of detail and consideration that you are taking is oddly heartwarming. I have 'trolled' this site for a few years now just reading and building my knowledge. But this comment below made me make my first comment.

robvdv
I guess it all comes down to whether I believe that a single pass through a well sized, well maintained UV unit can make the system safe?

I have studied Microbiology for a few years and now since my addiction to marine life is now a full blown life changing hobby, I decided to switch my major to Marine Biology.
Back on track before I tell my life story

Your idea that a QT can actually be counterproductive is sound, and I stand by it 100%. Just because the tank is bare bottom and the water parameters are all green does not mean that any fish likes to swim in clean open water, usually, alone.

So my advice to you would be to make an acclamation tank that is extremely close (water parameter wise) to your DT, use PVC (large size, 4"+ joints) to create a mock 'rock'scape to insure that your fish has places to hide. Then watch your new friend extremely closely, watch for anything (unlike most who just treat for everything) and if you see something then treat it accordingly.

Also the UV is a very powerful tool for aquariums but realistically from a Microbiology stand point it is not an effective as you might think. Any type of fungus/spore/virus/anything to be killed by UV light takes a certain "inoculation" time before it is killed. U can’t just flash water that is passing through the UV treatment at XXX-GPH and expect that ich spores are going to be killed, IT WONT. Spores are amazing but extremely deadly and also very hard to destroy. And that’s just from a microbiology stand point. I don’t know that 'itch' spore personally but all spores usually take a min of 10/15 min inoculation to be "killed."

Sorry for making you read a book, but I hope this helps. Your gunna have an amazing tank. I’m sure that you will decide on the correct way of introducing new friends into your DT. However you might think that is :lolspin:

 

[dantimdad]

What I would wonder along those lines is: Is it possible to keep the params close to each other by only having the water circulate between the two at set intervals so the UV has it's way with the nasties then change the entire volume out with the display?

I still like the idea of a separate QT for ability to break it down and clean it up and not use it when I don't need it.

But, the idea here intrigues me.

 

[JnA Design]

You could use the water out of the DT for your QT tank. Keep your fish/coral in there and just do the same as your doing with your DT.

Example - Say you have 100 gallon DT and a 10 QT tank (just to make the math easy) if you do a 20 gallon water change in the DT do a 2 gallon change in the QT.


But then again your equitment is gunna more then likely wont be the same... Time to get a cold beer and sit back and think out that one... But the basic idea is sound.

---Edit

I re-read your post Dantimdad, and from my understandment having the QT and DT connected but having a UV treatment cleaning the water from the QT that is heading back to the DT.

Very good idea, but there is a problem I see with that. UV treatments that are designed for this hobby are not adequate for killing ick spores or any spore for that fact. Just because the water is rushing under a high powered UV light does not mean that organism is gunna be "zapped" like most people think. The light actually creates the DNA to 'mess up' in a process called denaturalization. Just how we get melonoma that happens from a prolonged exposure to UV light.

Sorry again if this is just to much info. I tend to get carried away.

 

[ransomed4ever]

Claodio D has a good point with the partition. It looks like it almost makes something like a wavebox. You might want to think about using the egg crate like overflow teeth and basically use the egg crate to extend the walls of the partition to the water line. With the amount of suction those pumps are going to make any fish that swims above the eggcrate is going to get sucked down and stuck to it.

 

[Chris Witort]

Diablo, I don't know how much water those pumps move but I'll assume that its more than 20,000 gal per hr. If it is 100.000 gal per hr the area behind the water flow would draw down to the level of the pumps within seconds and start aspirating air, turning the entire aquarium into a skimmer(perhaps damaging the pumps). The water would produce an incredible waterfall over the overflow and possibly overflowing the top of the aquarium (depending on how much aquarium you have above the static water line. I think that either making the the three sided weir all grate ( I have seen some heavy duty fiberglass reinforced material that might work) or running the pumps free inside the aquarium, is the only way you will be able to use the massive flow your pumps can produce.

 

[Beaun]

I think the wizzards are 50,000GPH max each and I doubt they will be running at 100% at the same time all the time. However, I do agree on making it less of a weir and more of a false wall using egg crate or something that will let water get in easier.

 

[ghengis]

Diablo, great to see everything starting to come together!

Being a timber guy right to the core (or is that heartwood??), your selection of joinery timbers used troughout is an absolute wet dream and Silky Oak (despite now being considerd a pest up here in the tropics) is one of my all time fave timbers. Great stuff!

More pics please!!

 

[jnarowe]

Interesting thoughts on QTs and I would like to add my own if I may:

1. Try to purchase fish as they arrive at your local shop, and before they get into the shop systems. This takes some coordination and a willing LFS, but tends to reduce stress on fish by having them in their travel bag when you get home.

2. I used a completely separate QT but with a couple major differences than the norm. I filled my QT with water from the DT via gravity feed from the DT. So it was always similar to the end-game situation. I also ran it with UV, a full skimmer system, and various lighting options. When it was time to move a fish or coral from the QT to DT, I would drain off QT water in small amounts, and again use the feed from the DT on a float valve. That way the acclimation process was slow and easy. I did this over a week+ time, little by litte, so that when the fish went into the DT, it was going into the same water column.

3. I always release after lights out!

4. I kept rock and plants in the QT 24/7, running it continously.

5. It's very true that QTs can ultimately cause stress, but that would be based on size, lighting, and water quality. Using a large enough QT and the methods I describe greatly reduces the negative impact of a QT, while affording you the most protection from contaminating your DT.

Other topics...

I would never use egg crate in an aquarium, no matter the color. Look into sourcing perforated schedule 80 PVC sheet. I am concerned about the egg crate in general not allowing enough water through to meet the demands of those pumps, but I think the general concept is sound. One thing for certain, whatever your builder specs. the insert panels at, I would increase the thickness by at least 50%. Those panels will have very high loads and a tremendous number of cycles. You also might consider mounting them in firm rubber grommets to reduce vibration. As has been stated, the lower the better. With that kind of potential flow, I would do some serious testing before mounting the pumps, but here's a thought:

What if you built those panels so that they were removable? Perhaps having each pump panel slide down int a slot? That way you could have several panels with the pump holes in various locations so that over time, you could actually change the pump positions? Give that some thought!

 

[Diablo]

Interesting thoughts on QTs and I would like to add my own if I may:

1. Try to purchase fish as they arrive at your local shop, and before they get into the shop systems. This takes some coordination and a willing LFS, but tends to reduce stress on fish by having them in their travel bag when you get home.

2. I used a completely separate QT but with a couple major differences than the norm. I filled my QT with water from the DT via gravity feed from the DT. So it was always similar to the end-game situation. I also ran it with UV, a full skimmer system, and various lighting options. When it was time to move a fish or coral from the QT to DT, I would drain off QT water in small amounts, and again use the feed from the DT on a float valve. That way the acclimation process was slow and easy. I did this over a week+ time, little by litte, so that when the fish went into the DT, it was going into the same water column.

3. I always release after lights out!

4. I kept rock and plants in the QT 24/7, running it continously.

5. It's very true that QTs can ultimately cause stress, but that would be based on size, lighting, and water quality. Using a large enough QT and the methods I describe greatly reduces the negative impact of a QT, while affording you the most protection from contaminating your DT.

Jonathan, thanks for your thoughts... I may yet be swayed... And I very much agree with getting fish before going in to shop systems if at all possible.

I would never use egg crate in an aquarium

Any particular reason for this prejudice? I was considering FRP (fiberglass reinforced polymer) grating http://www.rhino-grating.com.au/app/shop/shopfront/view_product_details?category_id=22557&product_id=677655

What if you built those panels so that they were removable? Perhaps having each pump panel slide down int a slot? That way you could have several panels with the pump holes in various locations so that over time, you could actually change the pump positions? Give that some thought!

Food for thought. BTW, the hydro wizard pumps are mounted from the back, not the front. I am considering building a hollow column in acrylic and then filling with concrete to provide an appropriate level of stiffness. I then need to develop some sort of removable mechanism so that I can remove the pumps from time to time.

FWIW, I think at some point you may have recommended that I avoid surge tanks. I have done just that and put the freed-up cash into the hydrowizards, which will give me all the surge I need, without creating flow issues.

 

[Diablo]

JNA Design, thank you for posting. I value your contribution and am flattered that you outed yourself on my thread.

Sorry again if this is just to much info. I tend to get carried away.

No such thing in my book. Often too much hearsay opinion... never too much genuine experience and information.

FWIW, I am seriously contemplating a batch refresh system of some kind...

Just so you don't think I'm a flake, I have read a couple of peer reviewed journal papers demonstrating the effectiveness of single-pass systems at preventing disease transfer. I will see if I can dig them up...

The key issue is dimensioning... this from an earlier post (page 6):

tgunn, sorry so long for the reply, but this data is very hard to find and I had to dig to pull it up.

You really only need two pieces of data:
1) Irradiance required to kill the beastie in question
2) Performance data of UV sterilizer.

In this case, C. irritans is one of the hardest things to kill, requiring over 10 times the dose of common bacteria.... Specifically, 280,000 uWs/cm2.

Next theUV sterilizer I have in mind is an AquaUV SL100. ... the SL100 delivers a dose of 90,000 uWs/cm2 at a flow rate of 900 GPH.

In this case, I need a dosage that is 280,000 / 90,000 = 3.11 times the maximum dose in the chart. Given that UV sterilizers drop to 1/2 effectiveness over the lamp life, I will double the factor to be sure (6.22).

Now to get a dose that is 6.22 x higher, I need the flow rate to be 6.22 times less... so if I limit the flow through the system to 900GPH / 6.22 ~= 145GPH, then I have dimensioned the system properly.

 

[robvdv]

What if you built those panels so that they were removable? Perhaps having each pump panel slide down int a slot? That way you could have several panels with the pump holes in various locations so that over time, you could actually change the pump positions? Give that some thought!

Food for thought. BTW, the hydro wizard pumps are mounted from the back, not the front. I am considering building a hollow column in acrylic and then filling with concrete to provide an appropriate level of stiffness. I then need to develop some sort of removable mechanism so that I can remove the pumps from time to time.

I think Jonathan and I had the same idea with the sliding insert. It's a really practical, reversible, modifiable solution. Rather mount the pump to the insert than have it attached to a concrete column. You'll be able to get your pumps out blindfolded and with one hand.

If you have to use a concrete filled structure, rather use PVC (IMO).

 

[jnarowe]

I have not tested FRP so I have no idea how that would fare under aquarium conditions. I will say that it is a go-to material for any kind of tank room steps, walkways, etc. due to its impressive chemical resistance and non-skid properties (in the grating form).

I HAVE tested egg crate extensively in an aqaurium environment and the results were very poor. Not only does it allow a trememndous amount of surface area for algal growth, but it also promotes various algaes, dinos, etc. Anyone who has visited my system has seen the results. The upside to using it in a very large tank, is that the contamination as a percentage is low, but it is still there. It clearly leaches something into the water column. That's why I recommend perforated PVC. Even though ALL plastics have some oil content (including acrylic), PVC sems to be the much lesser of these evils.

I got mine from San Diego Plastics. Another upside to this material is that it doubles as a nice building material for reactors, floss decks, baskets, etc. and you have a range of perforation sizes to choose from.

Specifically, I tested egg crate panels both in my DT and QT for long periods, through water changes, complete cleanings, with and without plants, bio-load variations, and lighting schemes. Invariably the egg crate produced significantly more algal growth, dinos, and more, than anything else I used. I will also note that corals grew better when there was no eggcrate in the QT.

 

[MarkusII]

Hello Jonathan,

well about egg crate - I think we allready have been in discussion about it;
but if I look into this thread:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1215102&highlight=sousa
he is using it extensively and I do not see problems; as well as I have positive experience in several tanks;
maybe your material in the US is different to that in Europe????

@diabolo: for such a large tank I would really go for a separate quarantine tank

regards

Markus