270 Gallon SPS tank for JBNY

Hey Mike, the assessors hopefully will be in the open, I spent a lot of time talking with people before I got them. I have a pretty peaceful tank so I do not foresee them hiding because of aggression. In the Quarantine Tank they are out all the time. But if they hide, oh well.

As far as why 12 of them? The fish are pretty small, I don't really think they will add much to the bio load of the tank. and I think it looks cool when you get a bunch of fish that all hang out together. I currently have a decent amount of fish (about 18), and am still dumping nitrates (KNO3) into the tank just to keep the N at a detectable limit. I figure as long as I am adding Nitrates to the tank, I would rather have more fish than continue dosing.

The goal is to get a tank with lots of small fish. So once these guys are acclimated and doing well I'll start looking for some more small fish to add.
 
Joe, I've been going through this thread ever since you posted on mine. Took me a few days... Maybe it was weeks:).
What an amazing start up. Amazing handiwork. It was crazy to see the tank take off in 07 and then so sad to watch the downfall.
And to see you going back to the basics. I like it! I'll be watching along the way this time. And taking notes!
This thread is like a Lord of the Rings movie. Super long, epic roller coaster with a 'Phoenix rising from the ashes' ending - or rebirth, actually.
So, after everything that has happened with the sponge and the hurricane, have you done anything significant to your sand bed over all that time?
I love the cheato reactor. I'm going to think very seriously about abandoning AIO pellets and go back to cheato.
Thanks for the epic journey that has been your thread!
 
Hay Matt, Thanks for getting through the whole thread LOL. When this tank crashed on me (I should have posted the last pic when I decided to rip out the rock), the delay with the hurricane, fish die off and then remodeling in the house just took the fight out of me and I think I just needed some time to walk away and recharge.

But now I am back onboard, if I can just get my SPS to take off I think we'll be rolling again!

I have not done anything significant with the sand bed at all. I have always had a few wrasses in the tank that sleep in the sand. The wrasses keep the sand mixed here and there. I also have tigartail cucumbers a few Heart sea urchin (Maretia planulata) that sift the sand, sand bed is still incredibly clean looking.
 
Joe,

Do you have a source for the No3/Moly supplement in regards to the C30 or are you using Pax-Bellum's? I've basically gone through my bottle in 10 days. The solution only raises No3 by .05 ppm per 10ml, per 100g.
 
Just for fyi--

Chaeto has a 100 to one consumption(NO3 to PO4) that's why you get the imbalance. There's a scientific link......I'll see if I can dig it up.

Grasilaria I believe is around 30 to one. I've read a few threads of people that use this & have no issue with PO4.

You may be able to get away using this or a mixed group of algae and not have to use GFO or dose nitrates.
 
Joe,

Do you have a source for the No3/Moly supplement in regards to the C30 or are you using Pax-Bellum's? I've basically gone through my bottle in 10 days. The solution only raises No3 by .05 ppm per 10ml, per 100g.

Pax - Bellum will sell you more.
 
Very interesting, Ed. I am going to look into grasilaria as an alternative to cheato.
I have always had a p issue..
Jo, I have another question (couple, probably..) and it is aimed at the discussion around numbers chasing.
Back in '07 when the tank was taking off, you had your sand bed in the tank and I think you were running cheato in a sump, in the basement..
Were you even testing for n and p back then?
It certainly wasn't mentioned much in your posts..
Back then I had a large sps system with a remote sand bed, a huge cheato fuge and a monster skimmer for nutrient reduction. I had a million fish and pretty much dumped a tonne of food in the tank every day. I never once tested for n or p and the corals were out of this world. I have no clue where my nutrients were. I'm wondering if you had any idea where your nutrients were back then..
Now, I am in the same boat as you.. Waiting for things to take off. And I watch nutrients like a hawk. With my AIO pellets, and dosing cano3 daily, I have kept n at 4 ppm and p at .13 for a good two months. Since stabilizing things here, I have achieved good polyp extension and decent health.. But very little growth.
I see all these amazing sps tanks with coral growth and coloration that is ridiculous and they have numbers that show 0 n and 0 p. If I did that- which would be simple: just turn up the flow on the pellets- I think my corals would die in a week!
On the other hand, there are plenty of just as ridiculous tanks running higher numbers for n and p..
So, as the discussion goes, is it actual nutrient levels that are important or is it stability that is important? Probably both.. However, some people would argue that when transferring drags from one system to another, with dramatically different parameters, the corals acclimate perfectly.
... I don't really know where I'm going with this, I guess, other than to question why in '07 your system exploded with growth and today, it is struggling..
Tell me if I'm off base here and you are pretty sure the acro explosion is just around the corner and you aren't questioning all of this yourself..
If that's the case, sorry for the sidetrack!
 
Just for fyi--

Chaeto has a 100 to one consumption(NO3 to PO4) that's why you get the imbalance. There's a scientific link......I'll see if I can dig it up.

Grasilaria I believe is around 30 to one. I've read a few threads of people that use this & have no issue with PO4.

You may be able to get away using this or a mixed group of algae and not have to use GFO or dose nitrates.

Granted its LiveAquaria and not a scientific journal/paper, but supposedly higher levels of phosphate and nitrates inhibits the growth of gracilaria, which defeats the purpose early on the the NO3/PO4 battle.

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3468+2190+1127&pcatid=1127
 
Joe,
What is the total water volume of your system, and how much NO3 are you dosing and how often are you dosing it?

How are the assessor's doing?
 
So, as the discussion goes, is it actual nutrient levels that are important or is it stability that is important? Probably both.. However, some people would argue that when transferring drags from one system to another, with dramatically different parameters, the corals acclimate perfectly.
... I don't really know where I'm going with this, I guess, other than to question why in '07 your system exploded with growth and today, it is struggling..
Tell me if I'm off base here and you are pretty sure the acro explosion is just around the corner and you aren't questioning all of this yourself..
If that's the case, sorry for the sidetrack!

Even though I might not have posted about it I have always tested my nutrients and tracked them in a log book. Ironically just last week I was going through both pictures and logs to see what was different with my tank back then that I am struggling with SPS now, more of that in a second.

Back in 07-10 when I had the tank running as good as I could have hoped I was very aggressively running GFO and carbon dosing vodka. At one time I had chaeto in one of the sumps but it never really took off so I ended up removing it. Now I know that the chaeto was not doing well because the carbon dosing was pulling the nutrients out that the macro algae needed to grow. If you are carbon dosing you shouldn't be using macro algae for nutrient export.

But last week I went through my notes from when this same tank had lots of corals that were all thriving. I looked at the parameters of my tank back in 2010. The tank was stocked to the brim with macros and the growth was very strong. I went from a tank of nothing but small 1" frags to full blown colonies in about 18 months. My alk, at the 10-18 month mark, was all over the place from 11 dkh to as low as 6.6 dkH, with fluctuations of about 1 dkH every time I took my readings. N was always less than 0.1 and P was between 0.02-0.01. Despite the fluctuations in alk, I had zero problems with my SPS growth and coloration.

So I still think, as I did back then, that stability is really the key and that with either low Nitrates or high Nitrates you can be successful. With the method I am using right now, back to basics, I am really trying to achieve a less active means of keeping the tank running. When I was carbon dosing and using GFO, the carbon dosing was easy, just set the dosing pump up and let it go, Nitrates gone. But I was using GFO to pull the P down and it was erratic at best as I would forget to change it all the time, and while it did not cause bleaching it still allowed my P levels to bounce around a little. I say a little because it would go from about 0.08 to 0.02 still nothing major. Right now I am doing Nitrates with the thought that I will add more fish and feed more and eventually not dose nitrates.

But back to my problems right now with SPS. All my other LPS and fish and even the tank itself (rocks and coralline growth) have been spectacular the last 3 months. SPS has been really disheartening. I have only been using frags, but they would go into the tank look initially good, keep their color and encrust, but then they would just brown out, tips burn and eventually go dormant and either stay that way or RTN one day. I have no idea why this was happening, I have been testing and calibrating everything at an obsessive level the last few months. Everything is perfect, my alk has been rock steady for about two months, but still I was having problems, they were now taking a little longer to manifest, but still the same pattern.

So approximately one month ago I did two things, I re calibrated my refractometer using to two separate calibration fluids (Randy's homemade and Pinpoint), before that I had using the refractometer calibrated with RO/DI as per the manufactures guidelines (I know should be using 35ppt fluid). Using the calibration fluid I was off about 3ppt and raised my salinity over the next week. But more importantly I switched salt again, this time I went back to IO. I did about 200 gallons of water changes over the weekend and two more the next week, then went back to water changes every other week. I have been actively observing the SPS that were in the system and am positive that I am seeing better coloration and actually growth. A few new axial corallites can be seen on a few frags and no tip burning on any of them. Right now I am very hopeful that it was the salt that was causing me problems. If things continue as they are for the next few weeks I think I may have turned a corner.

Circiling back to when I was looking at my notes 2010 I was also looking at pictures and found that back in 2003 I had a bunch of acros with tips that were burned. This was from when Ron Shimek put out his article on the toxicity of some freshly mixed artificial sea water. I, after having read that article, changed my salt to Marinemix Bioassay from IO. Within a few weeks the tips of my acros started to melt away and I had some colonies RTN on me. I ended up switching back to IO and it went away. I went back to read the history from RC when this went down and it sounds very familiar to my current problem as well as the acro tip burning that so many people keeping SPS are having now.

<a href="http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1436691#post1436691" target="_blank">http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1436691#post1436691</a>

<a href="http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1429957#post1429957" target="_blank">http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1429957#post1429957</a>

I have my fingers crossed that this fixes my problem.

Ha! I think I am the one who is rambling now! :D
 
Joe,

Do you have a source for the No3/Moly supplement in regards to the C30 or are you using Pax-Bellum's? I've basically gone through my bottle in 10 days. The solution only raises No3 by .05 ppm per 10ml, per 100g.

I am mixing my own.

I am using the calculator from here

http://www.theaquatools.com/fertilization-calculator

For my tank I dosed to raise the Nitrates by 1ppm until I got to 5ppm. You can buy NO3 powdered nitrate online (I got mine at greenleafaquariums) and mix it up based on the formula they provide. So for my tank I mixed up 40g of KNO3 in 500ml, when I dose 30ml daily, that was supposed to raised the NO3 in tank by about 1ppm. So my tank consumed more N than I though and it took about a month to get there. Now I dose about 20ml and it keeps my N just about 5ppm. And yes I tested N a lot when first dosing.
 
Granted its LiveAquaria and not a scientific journal/paper, but supposedly higher levels of phosphate and nitrates inhibits the growth of gracilaria, which defeats the purpose early on the the NO3/PO4 battle.

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3468+2190+1127&pcatid=1127

I'm not sure where they are getting that from. There's tons of studies done on gracilaria species & nutrient uptakes.

I don't want to take Joe's thread off track if he's good with nitrate dosing. I was just suggesting that maybe a more varied group of algae would do a better job.
 
So a little update for everyone, the assessors went into the tank last week, they were out in the open for about a day and are now living in the rockwork under a ledge. They took a few days to start eating in the main tank. My fish are not overly aggressive but there is a lot of movement during feeding time and I think that was spooking the assessors. Time will tell if they will be out in the open or I will never see them.

This weekend I changed out one of the sumps in the fish room, I had a 55 gallon tank that was originally going to be used for growing macro when I first set up the tank 7 years ago. I never used the tank for it's intended purpose and it really just was extra water volume, which is fine. Unfortunately I had the water line a little bit higher than I should have, and the tank became a salt creep magnet. I was constantly dealing with salt creep weeping water onto the stand below. Plus, the tank must have been drilled wrong because the bulkhead every few years would develop a slow leak that forced me to either reset the bulkhead or put a new one on. So a few months ago I decided to just have a acrylic sump made and swap them out.

So I worked with George over at Geo's reef, who is great. I have been friends with George for years and years, I think dating back to the IMAC days. Basically I wanted a sump that I could put in some filter socks, probes, and a shelf to put some bagged carbon if I wanted to. I also wanted to be able to fully close the top to keep in heat during the winter. Got the sump two weeks ago week and put it in this weekend.

So two weeks ago I get my new sump. It's been a long time since I had a new tank to play with!
DSCNi_20150510_01.jpg


DSCNi_20150510_00.jpg


So here is the setup as it has been for the last few years.
DSCNi_20150510_02.jpg


After shutting down the system, I unhooked the skimmer from the return and pulled it out.
DSCNi_20150510_03.jpg


Next up, drain the sump.
DSCNi_20150510_05.jpg


Accumulated junk on the walls from years of not cleaning the sides.
DSCNi_20150510_04.jpg


Cleaning off the salt creep that had fallen off the back of the tank all these years.
DSCNi_20150510_06.jpg


Everything all cleaned up and ready to go!
DSCNi_20150510_07.jpg


New sump in! I made a little stand to elevate the sump a little bit off the shelf, I figure I can use the space under to put dosing pumps and things to save some space.
DSCNi_20150510_08.jpg


Back and online!
DSCNi_20150510_09.jpg


Took me just over two hours to do the whole thing myself and no leaks. So far the sump is great, craftsmanship is top notch and does everything I need it to do. I also like that I did the bottom, back, and top in a color rather than clear.
 
I am mixing my own.

I am using the calculator from here

http://www.theaquatools.com/fertilization-calculator

For my tank I dosed to raise the Nitrates by 1ppm until I got to 5ppm. You can buy NO3 powdered nitrate online (I got mine at greenleafaquariums) and mix it up based on the formula they provide. So for my tank I mixed up 40g of KNO3 in 500ml, when I dose 30ml daily, that was supposed to raised the NO3 in tank by about 1ppm. So my tank consumed more N than I though and it took about a month to get there. Now I dose about 20ml and it keeps my N just about 5ppm. And yes I tested N a lot when first dosing.

Joe, thank you for the updates.
Which fertilizer are you using from GLA, Potassium Nitrate or Magnesium Nitrate?

I've got some more reading to do....
 
Thanks for the info Joe.
I asked since I knew going back to the old days, you would have a source. No disrespect to Pax-Bellum but at $20 + shipping for the supplements and all I really needed was the No3 additive that only last about 10 days for my system, well you understand where I'm coming from :)
Do you happen to know what the difference is between the KNO3 (P-Nitrate) & NO3 (M-Nitrate)?
 
Joe,
Also while looking at the fertilizer calculator, they ask for tank volume in liters and product in grams so if I have 282g in volume and convert it to liters, I get 1067 liters. If I roughly convert grams to teaspoons, I get 5 grams to a teaspoon. If I play with the amount, I end up with using 1/3 tsp or 1.66 grams to achieve an increase of 1 ppm in N03, does this look right to you?
I know based on your reply that you are mixing up larger volumes for daily liquid dosing but is there an RO/DI water ratio to the powder used? Say for instance that I use PB's additive container of 250ml and I need 1/3 tsp daily but in liquid form, how many tsp do I add to the 250ml of RO/DI water and afterwards, how many ml do I dose daily to achieve the 1 ppm of N03?
For whatever the reason, I can't wrap my pea brain around this :D
 
Thanks for the info Joe.
I asked since I knew going back to the old days, you would have a source. No disrespect to Pax-Bellum but at $20 + shipping for the supplements and all I really needed was the No3 additive that only last about 10 days for my system, well you understand where I'm coming from :)
Do you happen to know what the difference is between the KNO3 (P-Nitrate) & NO3 (M-Nitrate)?

:D much cheaper to mix your own.

The KNO3 is potassium nitrate. I would rather have some potassium going into the tank. The M I think is Magnesium Nitrate?

I think most people who dose nitrate use KNO3. It's only $3 a pound so you could buy one of each and see which one you like.

As for how the calculator works. Convert your whole system water volume to liters. Then decided how much of a batch you want to make (I make up 500ml at a time) then play with adding grams (you buy the NO3 as a dry powder) of the NO3 and how much you want to dose till you get the number you are happy with.

So for my tank I have 1514 liters of water total. I mix up 500ml at a time and I chose about 30ml to dose (pick any amount you want, I chose 30ml because I felt I could easily measure that). Then just keep adding grams to the NO3 until you get to your target number (40g for me brings up the NO3 by 1ppm). It sounds complicated but it is actually pretty easy.

When mixing the solution. I add some powder then stir it up and then add some more and keep doing that until it is all mixed. Once it is mixed it will stay in solution until you need it, so you are all set. I transfer the solution to the pax-bellum plastic nitrate bottle and then use that to dose. I transfer the remaining solution into a bottle that I can keep sealed and store it until I need it.

If you are wondering, years ago I bought and still use all the time a bunch of graduated cylinders and beakers (like we used in chemistry class), I even bought some weighing paper that is used for weighing dry powders and such. The weighing paper is from back in the day when using interceptor to treat acros with red bugs. I also have a gram scale that I bought from amazon for $12 Ac-100 Digital Pocket Gram Scale, I checked it with calibrated weights and it is right on target. I had all this stuff already so all I had to do was buy the powder and I was ready to go.

OK, hopefully I have saved you hours of having to research all this. Any other questions just ask.
 
Hi Joe,
I've been dosing KNO3 to try and increase my NO3 and reduce PO4 or at least balance them out. Right now I have made up a solution of 1/4 tsp to 423 ml of RO/DI, very very diluted. I estimate my volume to be roughly 400 gallons or 1600 L. I currently dose 400 mL of the solution into the tank. I'm up to .25 ppm NO3. I would like to concentrate the amount of solution going into the tank but don't want to over do it. I have it on my LM3 so it is dosed at 150x per day.

Based on that information, I think I will do the following: 500 mL RO/DI, 20 grams of KNO3, dose at 60 ml/day. This should be the same concentration as yours, but double the volume.
 
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