600 gal display/900+ gal build thread in the Chicago 'burbs.
- Thread starter wmilas
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Installed the new nozzles for the dart return. The cyano is really starting to die off now. Seeing tufts of green hair algae starting up and buds of purple coralline starting to get bigger. Yea! The cleanup crew has been delayed by bad weather. Hope to ship Friday for Saturday now. 700 Snails 
Going to go see if I can't take a few pictures to show the progress.
Going to go see if I can't take a few pictures to show the progress.
Ok some pictures. Unfortunately, I cleaned the acrylic right before a took the shots to get the cyano off. It made the water murky. Also I'm still having a microbubble issue. I was hoping the new dart nozzles would fix the problem as I thought thats where the issue was. Apparently not. I'm going to have to move the return to the sump farther down into it and see if the helps next.
Anyways, Tank shots:
Closer rock shots:
Purple Coralline! this was base rock.
Hair algae:
Anyways, Tank shots:
Closer rock shots:
Purple Coralline! this was base rock.
Hair algae:
Can you see the new nozzles? Very small 
The Koralias aren't bad either.
Lookie! New filters waiting to be hooked up.
Refugium with cheato. And no those colors aren't wacky. The refugium is 6500K while the tanks under it are much bluer.
Frag tank:
Quarantine:
Complete ugliness coming out the the skimmer. Disgusting. Notice the homemade carbon ring. Classy!
Floats, Breakout box, and Eheim pump for the GFO and Carbon reactor.
The Koralias aren't bad either.
Lookie! New filters waiting to be hooked up.
Refugium with cheato. And no those colors aren't wacky. The refugium is 6500K while the tanks under it are much bluer.
Frag tank:
Quarantine:
Complete ugliness coming out the the skimmer. Disgusting. Notice the homemade carbon ring. Classy!
Floats, Breakout box, and Eheim pump for the GFO and Carbon reactor.
Oh also, I rre-calibrated my ORP probe and its still reading what seems to me to be high.. Its scary high.. I'm hovering at 505 now. I'm wondering if I'm over-skimmer the water at this point? An ORP that high, as far as I can tell, is off the charts.
The ORP probe seems to be working right. If I put it in salt water Ive been mixing for a few days it falls to the sub 300 rang down to 275 or so.. so I think my tanks ORP actually IS 505. I don't quite know what to think about that.
I've been reading more into the more advanced turf scrubbers today. I ran one years ago with my last reef tank. Pretty much before skimmers really took off. I'm worried at this point I'm pulling all the organics, pods, EVERYTHING out of the water.
After things get stable with fish I think I'm going to build one one of the newer waterfall double lighted ones and see how that works. Its a completely different idea than a skimmer, and more natural. It has me intrigued.
The ORP probe seems to be working right. If I put it in salt water Ive been mixing for a few days it falls to the sub 300 rang down to 275 or so.. so I think my tanks ORP actually IS 505. I don't quite know what to think about that.
I've been reading more into the more advanced turf scrubbers today. I ran one years ago with my last reef tank. Pretty much before skimmers really took off. I'm worried at this point I'm pulling all the organics, pods, EVERYTHING out of the water.
After things get stable with fish I think I'm going to build one one of the newer waterfall double lighted ones and see how that works. Its a completely different idea than a skimmer, and more natural. It has me intrigued.
ReefEnabler
Premium Member
hmm interesting.... I use a BK skimmer and my ORP has been between 420 and 450 but never as high as 500. I wonder if its just because theres not much in the tank yet?
Mr. Brooks
MASVC Member
How many gallons is the ATB XL rated for?
You know there's a bit of controversy surrounding the guy that was pushing those turf scrubbers. His screen name is santamonica I believe. He was actually kicked off of reef central.
I wouldn't bother with a scrubber. I think you're set up is solid.
Let the plumbing slime over a bit. My micro bubbles went away after a month or so. Took that long to get a good coat of slime in all the PVC.
You know there's a bit of controversy surrounding the guy that was pushing those turf scrubbers. His screen name is santamonica I believe. He was actually kicked off of reef central.
I wouldn't bother with a scrubber. I think you're set up is solid.
Let the plumbing slime over a bit. My micro bubbles went away after a month or so. Took that long to get a good coat of slime in all the PVC.
deaclauderdale
Lover of Fishies
By far one of the best tank/basement builds I've seen!! Congratulations!!
As far as the micro bubbles go I definitely know its coming from the loop with the dart. If I turn that loop off they go away. So I'm going to mess the the plumbing a bit then turn the dart down if that doesn't help. I'm thinking its probably a combination of the dart and the slime as stated above. I might be able to open the dart back up later if it is the dart after the slime builds up.
As far as the turf scrubbers go, I read Santamonicas thread along with dozens of others. Its not him that has me intrigued but people like Eric Borneman who obviously know what they are doing. My setup is obviously (I hope going to be rock solid as is, but turf scrubbing does work, I can attest to that. I used to use it. When I used it it was in the bottom of a dump bucket and wasn't nearly as efficient as they are designed today.
What it breaks down to is this. Skimmers remove everything they can, which is mostly organic Nitrates and Phospates. The idea is to get the organic out of the water before it can decompose into the inorganic N&P that makes our life hell. The problem with this is that the Organic N&P is teh food that the corals eat. So you end up having to feed a ton then 95% of it gets stripped out of the water via the skimmer (if its a good skimmer).
A scrubber leaves all the organic N&P in.. it strips out the inorganic N&P. It out competes everything for the inorganic and away it goes.
Does it work? Yes. Which is better? I don't know. I'm going to run my setup as is for a while with a heavy bioload then build and runner a scrubber to see for myself. I'll have both so I can switch back and forth all I want and see which works best for me
This isn't going to happen for a long time.. my guess is next fall at the soonest.
As far as to what the ATB XL is rated for? The XL is just rated "Big" Its supposed to easily handle a 1000 gallon system and go toe to toe with the largest bubble king. I've seen it in action on a LARGE system when the Large Volcano (not the small dart one) was on it. The ATB XL shut the Volcano down and continued to outskim it.
As far as the turf scrubbers go, I read Santamonicas thread along with dozens of others. Its not him that has me intrigued but people like Eric Borneman who obviously know what they are doing. My setup is obviously (I hope
going to be rock solid as is, but turf scrubbing does work, I can attest to that. I used to use it. When I used it it was in the bottom of a dump bucket and wasn't nearly as efficient as they are designed today.What it breaks down to is this. Skimmers remove everything they can, which is mostly organic Nitrates and Phospates. The idea is to get the organic out of the water before it can decompose into the inorganic N&P that makes our life hell. The problem with this is that the Organic N&P is teh food that the corals eat. So you end up having to feed a ton then 95% of it gets stripped out of the water via the skimmer (if its a good skimmer).
A scrubber leaves all the organic N&P in.. it strips out the inorganic N&P. It out competes everything for the inorganic and away it goes.
Does it work? Yes. Which is better? I don't know. I'm going to run my setup as is for a while with a heavy bioload then build and runner a scrubber to see for myself. I'll have both so I can switch back and forth all I want and see which works best for me
This isn't going to happen for a long time.. my guess is next fall at the soonest.
As far as to what the ATB XL is rated for? The XL is just rated "Big" Its supposed to easily handle a 1000 gallon system and go toe to toe with the largest bubble king. I've seen it in action on a LARGE system when the Large Volcano (not the small dart one) was on it. The ATB XL shut the Volcano down and continued to outskim it.
EnglishRebel
Retired Rebel Reefer
wmilas
I hope you got permission from your significant other before you sequestered those stockings.
I hope you got permission from your significant other before you sequestered those stockings.
Those were $2.99 cheapie specials from the drugstore! My wife would kill me if I took hers.
I added another 6" to the drain that empties into the sump. I figured having the water come out 6" under water might cut down on the bubbles. No go. I then restricted the dart on the output side. It still spews bubbles. If I restrict it too much it starts belching big bubbles, and little ones
So the next step. I stopped the dart and let all the bubbles "pop" in both the display and sump. this took about 5 minutes. I then started the dart up and ran over to the display. First the nozzles show a bunch of air/bubbles but then it looked like bubble free water for about 30 seconds. at this point the overflows started going and water started crashing into the sump. The bubbles came back.
So the bubbles are not being generated by the dart or the plumbing after the dart. The are being generated by either:
1) the overflow boxes
2) the transition from the overflow boxes into the drain plumbing
3) the drain plumbing
4) or the emptying of the drain plumbing into the sump
Since the drain plumbing emptying into the sump now happens below water, I think we can rule out #4.
The water overflows into the drain boxes and that overflow is approximately 12-16". Granted that's probably too high. I can lower it to 6" or so. However I don't think this is the problem. I'm seeing foam in the overflow box but it doesn't seem substantial.
My piping in the overflow box is a straight pipe with no durso. Just wide open, no screen. The idea was that since I did not care about noise, this wasnt a problem. they do make a ruckus. I'm thinking this might be the problem, although I'm not sure.
I know dursos cut down on noise, but what about bubble generation. If I invert the intake (180 degree bend) so that the pipe takes water from below the surface, and sucks no air, would the help?
The problem with that is that Each overflow box as two pipes feeding a 3" drain. One pipe in each overflow is the primary, another in each overflow is the emergency. The emergencies are, obviously, always going to be open to the air, and thus the main 3" drain will always be able to suck and mix air.
If the micro bubbles are being generated in the main 3" drain with water from the overflows and air being sucked in and mixed from the emergency overflows I could be in trouble.
I guess I could test that part by capping the emergency overflows temporarily and see if that helps?
I added another 6" to the drain that empties into the sump. I figured having the water come out 6" under water might cut down on the bubbles. No go. I then restricted the dart on the output side. It still spews bubbles. If I restrict it too much it starts belching big bubbles, and little ones
So the next step. I stopped the dart and let all the bubbles "pop" in both the display and sump. this took about 5 minutes. I then started the dart up and ran over to the display. First the nozzles show a bunch of air/bubbles but then it looked like bubble free water for about 30 seconds. at this point the overflows started going and water started crashing into the sump. The bubbles came back.
So the bubbles are not being generated by the dart or the plumbing after the dart. The are being generated by either:
1) the overflow boxes
2) the transition from the overflow boxes into the drain plumbing
3) the drain plumbing
4) or the emptying of the drain plumbing into the sump
Since the drain plumbing emptying into the sump now happens below water, I think we can rule out #4.
The water overflows into the drain boxes and that overflow is approximately 12-16". Granted that's probably too high. I can lower it to 6" or so. However I don't think this is the problem. I'm seeing foam in the overflow box but it doesn't seem substantial.
My piping in the overflow box is a straight pipe with no durso. Just wide open, no screen. The idea was that since I did not care about noise, this wasnt a problem. they do make a ruckus. I'm thinking this might be the problem, although I'm not sure.
I know dursos cut down on noise, but what about bubble generation. If I invert the intake (180 degree bend) so that the pipe takes water from below the surface, and sucks no air, would the help?
The problem with that is that Each overflow box as two pipes feeding a 3" drain. One pipe in each overflow is the primary, another in each overflow is the emergency. The emergencies are, obviously, always going to be open to the air, and thus the main 3" drain will always be able to suck and mix air.
If the micro bubbles are being generated in the main 3" drain with water from the overflows and air being sucked in and mixed from the emergency overflows I could be in trouble.
I guess I could test that part by capping the emergency overflows temporarily and see if that helps?
ReefEnabler
Premium Member
I doubt there is any difference betwen the bubbles created from a durso or a regular standpipe, I bet most of the problem is where the drain meets the sump.
I have to run a filter sock to cut down on bubbles since my bubble traps aren't really ideal.
have you thought about making a bubble tower???
You could make a bubble tower like this one on melevs site....
but imagine giving it another layer of baffles that then forces the wate to to OVER.... that would probably get rid of most, since many would rise before going under the first teeth, and then the rest of the flow would be an evenly distributed sheet at the top, where the rest would be likely to pop.
I have to run a filter sock to cut down on bubbles since my bubble traps aren't really ideal.
have you thought about making a bubble tower???
You could make a bubble tower like this one on melevs site....
but imagine giving it another layer of baffles that then forces the wate to to OVER.... that would probably get rid of most, since many would rise before going under the first teeth, and then the rest of the flow would be an evenly distributed sheet at the top, where the rest would be likely to pop.
ReefEnabler
Premium Member
also heres something I did which cut down on mine alot:
basically the drainline is horizontal, then T's into the sump. There's a cap on the top of the Tee with two holes drilled, and then airline tubing is stuck in the holes, and curves back down facing the sump.
I call it a "poor mans vent".
Theres enough air coming out of each tube to blow out a match. If I close them with my fingers the gurgling noise gets much louder. Some water occasionally drips out from all the internal splashing so they need to be over a place where the drips go back to the sump.
obviously larger or more tubes could be used. I used two because one wasnt enough and I didn't have bigger tubing at the time.
basically the drainline is horizontal, then T's into the sump. There's a cap on the top of the Tee with two holes drilled, and then airline tubing is stuck in the holes, and curves back down facing the sump.
I call it a "poor mans vent".
Theres enough air coming out of each tube to blow out a match. If I close them with my fingers the gurgling noise gets much louder. Some water occasionally drips out from all the internal splashing so they need to be over a place where the drips go back to the sump.
obviously larger or more tubes could be used. I used two because one wasnt enough and I didn't have bigger tubing at the time.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14157411#post14157411 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReefEnabler
I doubt there is any difference betwen the bubbles created from a durso or a regular standpipe, I bet most of the problem is where the drain meets the sump.
I have to run a filter sock to cut down on bubbles since my bubble traps aren't really ideal.
have you thought about making a bubble tower???
You could make a bubble tower like this one on melevs site....
but imagine giving it another layer of baffles that then forces the wate to to OVER.... that would probably get rid of most, since many would rise before going under the first teeth, and then the rest of the flow would be an evenly distributed sheet at the top, where the rest would be likely to pop.
If I get you right, That would be the same as taking a 5 gallon bucket, putting it in my sump, where the top of the bucket is above the sump water line. I would then have the drain exit near teh bottom of the bucket. Bubbles would come up, flow over the top in a thin sheet and pop.
Btw my intake for my dart is 4 feet at the other end of the sump and at the BOTTOM of the sump. So the micro bubbles are making it 4 feet across the sump, and down to the bottom
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14157456#post14157456 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReefEnabler
also heres something I did which cut down on mine alot:
basically the drainline is horizontal, then T's into the sump. There's a cap on the top of the Tee with two holes drilled, and then airline tubing is stuck in the holes, and curves back down facing the sump.
I call it a "poor mans vent".
Theres enough air coming out of each tube to blow out a match. If I close them with my fingers the gurgling noise gets much louder. Some water occasionally drips out from all the internal splashing so they need to be over a place where the drips go back to the sump.
obviously larger or more tubes could be used. I used two because one wasnt enough and I didn't have bigger tubing at the time.
This makes sense, I think. But why use the tubes and not leave the top of the T open? Is the idea here to let some of the gas escape or are the tubes doing something magical I can't figure out? Or is it the tubes just cut back on the splashing that would happen at the top of the T? Or could the T be reduced and run up? Ie take a 3" t add a reducer at the top say down to 1" and run the 1" line up 2 feet so it doesn't splash?
Now I'm not a rocket scientist or anything, but why not install a valve on the 3.5" drain going into that tank that the Dart is plumbed into?
Are you getting any type of cavitation with the drain and return being so close together? Did you tie a sock filter on the end?
I didn't see a picture of the inside of the tank your Dart pump is plumbed into.
Are you getting any type of cavitation with the drain and return being so close together? Did you tie a sock filter on the end?
I didn't see a picture of the inside of the tank your Dart pump is plumbed into.
ransomed4ever
New member
I've been having a similar probelm with my setup. Granted mine isn't anywhere near this large but it could be similar probelms. I 'm pretty sure that the flow rate through my sump is just so high that the microbuble that come out of the drain just get washed over all the baffles (the bubble trap) and pushed to the return pump before they have a chance to rise and pop. Since things have slimed up some they got a little better, but I still had to use filter foam between baffles and even ad a few temporay baffles to get them close to gone. I've pretty much decided that I'm going to have to pull my sump out and redo the baffles at some point if I want them completely gone, but I just haven't motivated myself enough to do that yet.
ReefEnabler
Premium Member
I tried running it with just an open T. the problem was I got so much sloshing that occasionally huge gurgles of water would rush out of the top, which created splashing that often left the sump and dramatically increased salt creep.
if you could add a tall vertical extension out the top of the T (might be feasible in your case) then it would probably be fine. for me I had a limited height to work with.
using the tubes basically allows just some air through and the occasional drip of water. and the water that does get through is dripped right back to the sump. its just enough air venting to prevent the really big gurgles. just think that every bit of air expelled is air thats not existing in the form of bubbles.
EnglishRebel
Retired Rebel Reefer
WMILAS
This is one of the two return pipes discharging into my LifeReef sump.
They have slots cut into the pipe which discharges under water. Jeff at LifeReef says that he never gets bubbles in his sumps with this design. There again that may be a factor of the over flow as well. I'm sure you're familiar with the BeanAnimal design, which he says that is completely silent and bubble free.
Just a thought.
This is one of the two return pipes discharging into my LifeReef sump.
They have slots cut into the pipe which discharges under water. Jeff at LifeReef says that he never gets bubbles in his sumps with this design. There again that may be a factor of the over flow as well. I'm sure you're familiar with the BeanAnimal design, which he says that is completely silent and bubble free.
Just a thought.
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