600 gal display/900+ gal build thread in the Chicago 'burbs.

[wmilas]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14158684#post14158684 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Crazy One
Now I'm not a rocket scientist or anything, but why not install a valve on the 3.5" drain going into that tank that the Dart is plumbed into?
Are you getting any type of cavitation with the drain and return being so close together? Did you tie a sock filter on the end?
I didn't see a picture of the inside of the tank your Dart pump is plumbed into.

The return for the dart is 4 feet away horizontally and 3 or so feet away vertically from there the drain exits. On the bottom of the sump where the darts bulkhead is is a 2" line that runs the length of the sump to the other side.

As far as a valve on the drain itself, thats risky. I only have one main drain pipe. If I back it up and something goes wrong, my emergency overflows drain into that pipe, and i'm going to have water all over the floor.

 

[wmilas]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14159473#post14159473 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReefEnabler
I tried running it with just an open T. the problem was I got so much sloshing that occasionally huge gurgles of water would rush out of the top, which created splashing that often left the sump and dramatically increased salt creep.

if you could add a tall vertical extension out the top of the T (might be feasible in your case) then it would probably be fine. for me I had a limited height to work with.

using the tubes basically allows just some air through and the occasional drip of water. and the water that does get through is dripped right back to the sump. its just enough air venting to prevent the really big gurgles. just think that every bit of air expelled is air thats not existing in the form of bubbles.

I see. I'm going to try it with an extended T. If that doesn't work I'll put a barb on it with a piece of flex hose and arc it like you did. Thanks.

 

[wmilas]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14159591#post14159591 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by EnglishRebel
WMILAS
This is one of the two return pipes discharging into my LifeReef sump.

They have slots cut into the pipe which discharges under water. Jeff at LifeReef says that he never gets bubbles in his sumps with this design. There again that may be a factor of the over flow as well. I'm sure you're familiar with the BeanAnimal design, which he says that is completely silent and bubble free.
Just a thought.

Alan: the bean animal design is a good one. Its not practical for me though. I have 2 overflow boxes so that would require 3 bulkheads per box and 6! drain pipes. You cant mix his pipes because each have to be able to create a siphon and I think if you mix them, you break the siphon. I have each box drilled for 3 bulkheads and have installed 3 each and capped 1 each of them. If I HAVE to I can implement that design, I'd just rather not

The sump has the overflow which I assume dissipates bubbles. The slotted design is interesting. I've also seen people drill the tube with lots of holes that pretty much does the same thing.

I think I'm going to build some poor man dursos and submerge the normal drains in each overflow. This will cut down on some turbulence. I'm then going to make the T that ReefEnabler suggested. It should belch up and purge a ton of air. If they still Arent't gone I'm going to put a bucket in the sump to act as a circular overflow and drill/slot the tube. If that STILL doesn't work I'm going to turn the emergency drains into dursos also, submerge them, to try and limit the amount of air being sucked in.

If none of that works I'm going to be ****ed because I'll have to re-plumb everything for something like beans design

Oh also I should note I can most likely get rid of the bubbles right now with a filter bag. I don't want to do this because filter bags remove damn near everything from the water. Pods, ect. If I eventually switch to a turf scrubber one day I definitely wont be able to run the bag. So, I might as well try and get it to work without the bag

 

[Bax]

From previous pics, it looks like the 3" main drain elbows down into t your sump with no restriction. I think the 3" is just too large for your overflow drains and will pull air no matter what you do. as it just can't fill up with water and must pull air. I'am thinking even if you put Durso type fittings on the drains, they'll still have to burp air.

Before going too crazy with other fixes, I'd try reducing to 2" right at the edge of the sump go to a 2" T with an open riser (vent) and a 2" drop tube into the sump with a piece of 4-6" pipe or so for a bubble tower.

 

[wmilas]

Bax: Good point. I'll try that. The fittings are cheap and Its just all slip fit once it gets to the end of the drain.

Think the vent should be 2" or restrict it down to 1" or 3/4" ?

 

[Bax]

For the end of the line vent 2" should be fine. As you said it's not so much the noise you are worried about. If after trying it, you think you're pulling air from the 2" vent put a push cap on it and drill a 1/4" hole. Also by keeping it a slip fit, you can take it off to clean it every now and again and make sure nothing is building up in there.

If this doesn't do it, you may even need to try 1 1/2" to restrict the 3" even more. But I think it's gonna help a lot.

 

[Mr. Brooks]

Is there any way for you to seperate the emergency drain from the regular drain? I have an 1 1/2" submerged stand pipe with a gate valve to control the level in the overflow box, Then a seperate 2" emergency drain line. I have the level in the overflow box set just below the emergency line. It pulls no air and is silent. If anything were to get caught on the gate valve and clog the normal drain, the 2" line would pick up the slack. I'm very happy with this set up. It's allowed me to gravity feed my skimmer with a consistant flow of water.

 

[ReefEnabler]

good idea.... good luck.


I've already decided that my next tank will use the Herbie failsafe silent (or beananimal double failsafe) standpipes. But alas that is something you definitely need to plan BEFORE you order the tank

 

[wmilas]

Well like i said I can go bean type, but I have to redo all the plumbing for the overflows. I'd rather not at this point. I'm going to try the restriction and what not first. The only think I have to be careful is the my dart is flowing around 2.5 to 3000 gallons per hour. I'm not sure a 2" drain can handle that., so I have to be careful on the restriction at the end.

 

[EnglishRebel]

wmilas
It's interesting that you said that about two BeanAnimals. I am having my box drilled with six holes thinking I could double up on his design but after posting in his thread he advised against it. I will use one of the spare three for a second emergency. I intend to run all of my overflows into a single 1-1/2" PVC pipe back downstairs to the sump. Do you think that it's a wise decision or should I run a second pipe for the emergency overflows?

 

[Mr. Brooks]

I'd run a second pipe.

 

[wmilas]

I would run a second pipe. Either seriously oversize your single pipe so you could drive a truck through it (like I did) or run a second for the emergencies.

 

[wmilas]

Ok I'm officially ****ed off. I've just spent 4 hours trying to rid, or even reduce my microbubbles. I swear I've damn near given myself a heart attack over this. Once I get a hold of something I don't usually let go.

First I went and built simple dursos for the overflows. I did this mainly to cut down on the noise and hoped it would have a small impact on bubbles:

It worked great on the noise. Reduced it by 50% I'd say. Didn't do jack for the bubbles though.


Next I built the T and the bubble tower. The T is built out of 3" that reduces down to 2". The top that "breaths" is still 3". If it worked I was going to reduce it down to something much smaller. The bubble tower is a 5 gallon bucket sitting on my skimmer platform. The top sits about 3 inches above the sump water line. This should cause all the water to slowly cascade over the side releasing bubbles. The 2" pipe is the full length of the bucket. there is about 2" free space at the bottom.

And the resulting mass of bubble that gleefully, in spite of all my efforts lazily flow over the sides into the sump then bubble up:

Here you can see the bastards flowing out of my nozzels:

The annoying part is that my sump is now super quiet and teh water movement is almost gentle. The air port has tons of foam a few inches up it and I can see it working and expelling air like it supposed to. The problem is none of this seems to have cut down on ANY bubbles. There are still millions of them.

I think I'm going insane.

 

[Dante_JoseCuerv]

Hmmm, I'm stumped. Love the tank though! Wish I could see it in person.

 

[wmilas]

Me too. I'm starting to wonder if its something as simple as letting everything slime up? Ive been running for about a month now. I'm through the diatoms, and cyano, into the green hair and coralline phase. Maybe enough time has not passed?

Although I want to believe this I'm not sure about it... There are ALOT of bubbles. I've double verified its not coming from the pump intake. They are being generated as they either flow down the drains, or in the drain pipes themselves.

I did not drill or slot the 2" pipe, although I'm not sure how much that would help.

I wonder if dumping into a whole bed of filter floss or something would help?

 

[46bfinGA]

I'm dealing with the same thing in my tank. I have been told it will go away after awhile, so I am going to wait it out. FWIW, I am only using one 1.5" return pipe from the sump. It looks like your overflows are falling way too far. I raised my durso's until the water was only falling a couple inches. They are now silent and produce almost no bubbles in my sump. Also I am using filter floss in my last baffle before the return section and it has reduced the microbubbles quite a bit.

 

[ReefEnabler]

hmm I'm guessing its because the drain is so close to the skimmer intake and there are no baffles to speak of?

or does that intake pipe actually go to the other side of the sump? hard to tell from the photo.

I can see the bucket isn't helping much.

If that dark intake IS where it looks like it is (right by the dart) I would try making the water drain as far to the other side away from the dart intake as possible. I wonder if putting a sweep 90 before it hits the water would help... so that the water has a high velocity horizontally rather than a high velocity down into the water column which makes it less likely bubbles will have time the rise.

 

[wmilas]

I just realized something I could do, if I had to. If I have to use something like Beans design, I could put 1 or 2 tamco tanks under the stand, dump all 6 lines into those, then have a large bulkhead connect the main sump to the tamco tank(s). This would create a super large run for the bubbles to have to migrate through, I could fill the tank(s) with live rock and dump right on top of those. I was saving that space for culture tanks, but I guess it would be possible if I had to do it.

 

[wmilas]

The intake for the dart is all the way on the other (left side in the picture) side of the sump. That dark thing on the lower right is just the bulkhead. An inner pipe runs the length of the sump along the bottom. Basically, the bubbles have to travel 4 feet over and 3 feet down to make it to the intake. As far as baffles, you are right. The problem though is I just made a wonderful circle baffle with the bucket, and thin sheeting action and little drop. In theory all the bubbles should pop as they sheet over. They aren't.

As far as the overflows, there are is about a 4-5 inch drop currently. There seems to be very little bubbles int eh overflow.

I also have the skimmer turned off. I'm leaving it off for a week or two to see if sliming the living bajesus out of the tank helps at all.

I think the problem here is that the dart just flows a ton of water. I think I'm getting 2800 to 3k gallons an hour. Lets say on the low side 2800. Thats a 175 gallon sump, about 125 gallons full when the tank is running. Do the math and thats 22.4 times turnover an hour. Thats alot of water movement.

I've also noticed that as my orp keeps climbing (its bouncing between 505 and 510 now) that my water gets more "fizzy". I've heard other people remark about this too. I'm wondering if its just too clean. Sounds silly, but I don't know. I do know that if I put my ear to the water right by the bucket, where alot the microbubbles are floating to the surface and popping, it sounds VERY fizzy. Just like when you pour a can of fresh cola.

 

[Mr. Brooks]

I would try to get your drain and skimmer output as far way from the pump intake as possible. Is there any way to add baffles before the intake? You can have as many bubbles as you want as long as they have a long enough run to float to the surface. Or baffles to force them up.