600 gal display/900+ gal build thread in the Chicago 'burbs.
- Thread starter wmilas
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skanderson
New member
will be watching this build carefully. i am planning on setting up a big tank in the fall and am interested in how you like the choices your going with . keep us all updated. thanks
mcliffy2
New member
Awesome to see this system being built nearby, I'm subscribing.
I really like that you are going all T5 - your system dwarfs my new build (238g display, 360 total) which I'm going all T5 on, but you are welcome to come by and check it out once it is up and running (hopefully) in the next few weeks.
I really like that you are going all T5 - your system dwarfs my new build (238g display, 360 total) which I'm going all T5 on, but you are welcome to come by and check it out once it is up and running (hopefully) in the next few weeks.
The halide thing is a complicated issue on a tank this size. Its all trade offs. Let me state that personally, I prefer the shimmer of halides. I'm not a halide hater.
Ok so lets delve deeper. I was told by ATM that when a tank is constructed, the stress is on the tanks upper area is mainly on the joints. Because of this if I wanted no cross bracing they would want to make the tank with 1.25" sides and 1.25 or 1.5"" top to maximize the surface area of the joint. They still HIGHLY recommended at least one cross brace. The problem here is I'm trying to keep teh sides at 1" so I can use the magnetic Tunze holders.
The other option would be to use a steel brace around the rim of the tank to avoid a cross brace. I really didn't want a steel brace.
The compromise I could make would be to put 2 250W lumenarcs over each "hole" and spread them so a minimal amount of light hits the bracing, along with a fan across each brace. This is doable and I may end up doing it. I just want to try a full T5 tank first because I've seen some European large tanks this way and they do look amazing.
As far as the cleaning thing goes, I've thought of that. The reality is on a large tank I've come to the realization its just going to be perfect all the time. I'll clean the reflectors as best I can once every other month and thoroughly on bulb changes. I will lose some output. I'll just over do the bulb count to make up for this.
I'm also getting lexan inserts made as lids. I can use these to completely eliminate spray if I chose, and they are safe to use under metal halides if I chose. The downside is I'd have to wipe then down couple times a week. Ugh.
So in summary the decision is mostly, but not completely made. There really is no right answer here. Oh I did want to add that I see LED as the future in the hobby. Its just not there right now. I fully expect to switch to some sort of LED technology in the future.
Ok so lets delve deeper. I was told by ATM that when a tank is constructed, the stress is on the tanks upper area is mainly on the joints. Because of this if I wanted no cross bracing they would want to make the tank with 1.25" sides and 1.25 or 1.5"" top to maximize the surface area of the joint. They still HIGHLY recommended at least one cross brace. The problem here is I'm trying to keep teh sides at 1" so I can use the magnetic Tunze holders.
The other option would be to use a steel brace around the rim of the tank to avoid a cross brace. I really didn't want a steel brace.
The compromise I could make would be to put 2 250W lumenarcs over each "hole" and spread them so a minimal amount of light hits the bracing, along with a fan across each brace. This is doable and I may end up doing it. I just want to try a full T5 tank first because I've seen some European large tanks this way and they do look amazing.
As far as the cleaning thing goes, I've thought of that. The reality is on a large tank I've come to the realization its just going to be perfect all the time. I'll clean the reflectors as best I can once every other month and thoroughly on bulb changes. I will lose some output. I'll just over do the bulb count to make up for this.
I'm also getting lexan inserts made as lids. I can use these to completely eliminate spray if I chose, and they are safe to use under metal halides if I chose. The downside is I'd have to wipe then down couple times a week. Ugh.
So in summary the decision is mostly, but not completely made. There really is no right answer here. Oh I did want to add that I see LED as the future in the hobby. Its just not there right now. I fully expect to switch to some sort of LED technology in the future.
SaraB
Coral Killer
I may have missed it, but how did you plan on bracing the Tamco bins you are using that are over 18" tall? Their website states the following: It is recommended tanks greater than 18" H or at elevated temperatures be simply braced with angle iron or 2x4's for full side support.
Here's a link to the bin I was considering using for my sump >157 gallons. I liked these as they are made specifically for liquid storage: http://www.plastic-mart.com/class.php?cat=54
Here's a link to the bin I was considering using for my sump >157 gallons. I liked these as they are made specifically for liquid storage: http://www.plastic-mart.com/class.php?cat=54
Both these and the Tamco tanks are made out of Polyethylene. I had noticed that the Tamco tanks had a thicker lip running around the edge which seemed more stable to me, although these look to be a bit cheaper. As far as I can tell both are meant for liquid storage.
As far as bracing goes, The sump should normally be no farther filled than 24". I'm going to check the deflection at 24" and at 36". If its not major at 24" I'm not going to worry about it. If it is I'm going to build a 2"x4" rim around the the tank 2/3rds of the way up.
Same goes for the water storage.
The tanks state they are made of 5/16" thick material. From looking around at strengths there is no way 5/16" poly is going to bust. I think they state braced so they don't tip over. I could be wrong though
FishTruck
Premium Member
You have clearly thought this through. Agreed, incredible results are possible with T5s... no doubt about that. At this point, you are planning a single cross brace? This should still leave you with many lighting options.
Also, I agree... that LED is the future... but not quite ready for prime time right now. Specifically... not if you have a huge tank that does not quite fit the footprint of the currently available fixtures.
I'm planning a double cross brace. They are smaller than a large single brace, but combined still larger area wise than the single brace, but arranged the way they are I can fit 4 400W lumenarcs raised up to cast a 2.5x2.5 or slightly bigger square to illuminate most of the front to back and overlap on the sides and still not directly hit the cross brace. I'll be able to fit the t5 supplemental over the cross braces thus still using the space. I'll ventilate the whole area, probably by using the cooling kits in the lumenarcs, and having some 120MM fans blowing over the braces.
But, like I said above, I'd like to completely avoid this if I can.
the interesting part is I've pulled out my old thermo dynamics book and started playing with the numbers. I've been worried I'd have a heat problem. Setting the target heat at 80F and figuring very rough heat loads and dissipation rates through acrylic, glass, pvc, and poly sump (Esp the poly sump since It will sit directly on concrete) I'm actually worried now that I wont have ENOUGH heat and I'll have to supplement with heaters. That would be a great problem to have!
I can always raise the sump up and inch or two and put a piece of plywood under it which should help a bit, or better yet foam then ply.
Wish they would hurry up making my tank already.
But, like I said above, I'd like to completely avoid this if I can.
the interesting part is I've pulled out my old thermo dynamics book and started playing with the numbers. I've been worried I'd have a heat problem. Setting the target heat at 80F and figuring very rough heat loads and dissipation rates through acrylic, glass, pvc, and poly sump (Esp the poly sump since It will sit directly on concrete) I'm actually worried now that I wont have ENOUGH heat and I'll have to supplement with heaters. That would be a great problem to have!
I can always raise the sump up and inch or two and put a piece of plywood under it which should help a bit, or better yet foam then ply.
Wish they would hurry up making my tank already.
FishTruck
Premium Member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12192410#post12192410 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wmilas
I'm planning a double cross brace. They are smaller than a large single brace, but combined still larger area wise than the single brace, but arranged the way they are I can fit 4 400W lumenarcs raised up to cast a 2.5x2.5 or slightly bigger square to illuminate most of the front to back and overlap on the sides and still not directly hit the cross brace. I'll be able to fit the t5 supplemental over the cross braces thus still using the space. I'll ventilate the whole area, probably by using the cooling kits in the lumenarcs, and having some 120MM fans blowing over the braces.
But, like I said above, I'd like to completely avoid this if I can.
the interesting part is I've pulled out my old thermo dynamics book and started playing with the numbers. I've been worried I'd have a heat problem. Setting the target heat at 80F and figuring very rough heat loads and dissipation rates through acrylic, glass, pvc, and poly sump (Esp the poly sump since It will sit directly on concrete) I'm actually worried now that I wont have ENOUGH heat and I'll have to supplement with heaters. That would be a great problem to have!
I can always raise the sump up and inch or two and put a piece of plywood under it which should help a bit, or better yet foam then ply.
Wish they would hurry up making my tank already.
I was having this discussion the other day... how does most of the heat get into the water from the lights. Conduction... from hot air above the tank... or... radiation from the lights? I considered getting out my college physics books, but, ended up changing a diaper instead (like, right now). You sound like you may have this answer fresh in your brain!
It depends on the lighting type. Heat transfer is NOT a linear function... as the degree differential changes the heat exchange becomes easier. With this in mind I *think*:
1) Point sources and non point sources with the same amount of radiated energy, should conduct, or radiate direct heat from light energy the same between them.
2) MH and T5's are not the same efficiency. MH actually radiate more light if you consider UV, IR, and visible, about 5% more. That radiation directly heats the tank, but also makes MH more efficient as a light source.
3) Heat convects through the air into the water. MH has a smaller convection footprint with a larger convection differential. T5's have a larger convection footprint with a smaller convection differential, but since they are slightly less efficient light wise, the sum total of that footprint is slightly larger than a MH.
4) The kicker here, and the part that no one ever talks about, is that that small MH footprint with the large temperature differential, because heat doest transfer linearly, actually is more efficiently at transferring heat into the tank.
So in summary, most of the heat enters the tank via convection over all for MH, and T5, not by conduction. The part that does enter via conduction is pretty much the same for MH and T5. The convection is different because of the footprint, and I think that the convection for the MH is more efficient thus making the MH a better heater.
Disclosure: I was trained as a Comp Eng. Not a civil or other material engineer, and it was damn near 20 years ago. I could be completely full of #$^@
Anecdotally evidence suggests that t5's don't introduce heat into tanks as readily as MH's. However MH's are usually not cooled to remove the convecton footprint while T5's sometimes are, and even if they arent, that footprint isn't as efficient and will dissipate much faster as heat convects upwards into the air.
I think if MH's are actively cooled, there will be very little difference heat exchange wise between them and a T5 thats actively cooled, considering a large enough air volume in the room and an open top.
1) Point sources and non point sources with the same amount of radiated energy, should conduct, or radiate direct heat from light energy the same between them.
2) MH and T5's are not the same efficiency. MH actually radiate more light if you consider UV, IR, and visible, about 5% more. That radiation directly heats the tank, but also makes MH more efficient as a light source.
3) Heat convects through the air into the water. MH has a smaller convection footprint with a larger convection differential. T5's have a larger convection footprint with a smaller convection differential, but since they are slightly less efficient light wise, the sum total of that footprint is slightly larger than a MH.
4) The kicker here, and the part that no one ever talks about, is that that small MH footprint with the large temperature differential, because heat doest transfer linearly, actually is more efficiently at transferring heat into the tank.
So in summary, most of the heat enters the tank via convection over all for MH, and T5, not by conduction. The part that does enter via conduction is pretty much the same for MH and T5. The convection is different because of the footprint, and I think that the convection for the MH is more efficient thus making the MH a better heater.
Disclosure: I was trained as a Comp Eng. Not a civil or other material engineer, and it was damn near 20 years ago. I could be completely full of #$^@
Anecdotally evidence suggests that t5's don't introduce heat into tanks as readily as MH's. However MH's are usually not cooled to remove the convecton footprint while T5's sometimes are, and even if they arent, that footprint isn't as efficient and will dissipate much faster as heat convects upwards into the air.
I think if MH's are actively cooled, there will be very little difference heat exchange wise between them and a T5 thats actively cooled, considering a large enough air volume in the room and an open top.
juststartingout
New member
Great build project in the making! I too was thinking of going with t5's, I wound up with 4 L3's with 250 xm's, still playing with the color temp. I doubt you will need a chiller. I'm about 1 hour from you and also have my tank in the basement, I didn't need a chiller, water never rose above 81. My tank is generally that same as yours, just 8 ft long though. Good luck with the build. I'm eager to read the next chapter.
glassbox-design
New member
It's nice seeing a project this large happening in the area. Looking forward to the build.
Some shots of the cleaned out basement and the first load of wood delivered.
Bottom of stairs:
Looking back from the study
Side View of the fish tank and bar area
Shot from the plasma area looking towards tank
Wide angle
I'll post some picts of the pool table and the next update with framing tomorrow I hope
Bottom of stairs:
Looking back from the study
Side View of the fish tank and bar area
Shot from the plasma area looking towards tank
Wide angle
I'll post some picts of the pool table and the next update with framing tomorrow I hope
SaraB
Coral Killer
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12289149#post12289149 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wmilas
Start dividing it into rooms, and keep areas for mechanical, sump pits, sewer cleanouts ect and its starts to look alot smaller fast
Agreed, they can start to look small fast! We just finished ours up last year and it no longer looks like 2200 square feet! My 10x21 foot fishroom is of course the best feature in my opinion!
Can't wait to see how yours looks as your project starts to roll!
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