700 gallon tank, or how i spent my daughters inheritance

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Pneumatic valves in a surge setup are the way to go....Yes, they could fail, but as with ANY surge tank you'll want an emergency overflow built into the tank. AFIK, pneumatic vlaves with properly set float switches and relays are the only true "bubble free" surge available....bubble free means no added salt-creep from the surge tank.

Talk to spazz, and visit the St Judes tank thread for some more info on them.
 
Also you wouldn't have to run the surge tank all the time. Just have it come on twice a day for an hour or two to simulate tides.
 
Sorry guys but I have to call BS on that. While the surge tank at St. Judes has a serious cool factor, it is not providing much flow. Using it to "simulate tides" is rediculous since tides have nothing to do with a temporary inflow of water.

For practical flow purposes, unless it is constantly firing all day, it's not adding much to your reef's flow. IMO if you were to inject air then there would be some value in running it a couple times per day to clarify the water and get the corals sliming a la Weatherson.

To spend that kind of time and money on a surge device and use it just a couple times a day seems awfully wasteful while adding complexity and maintanance to the overall project. There are much better ways to provide flow than surge tanks.
 
Hey Jonathan...don't throw guy"s" in there. I only stated that pneumatic operated surge tanks were the only bubble free surge. Peronally, I see NO reason to run a surge part time if you have one. If setting up a surge, it should be set to fire every 2-4 minutes IMO...maybe a minute or so slower at night, but not much

Sure, there may be better ways to provide flow, but theres nothing like a good surge thrown in with your tunze/vortech/DIY props/CL to get some GREAT random trubulence and purge mucus from your colonies. I also like the idea in the current TOTM where air is introduced into the CL twice a day to cause SPS colonies to shed.

If you are wanting to simulate tides, that's a WHOLE nother deal!!! and a LOT of work!
 
OK...I stand corrected ! :lol:

I would prefer to have bubbles in a surge if I were to do one. Quite frankly, that would be a more "natural" environment for a reef anyway.
 
It simulates the high flow volume you get before high tide as water rushes onto the reef and low tide as water rushes back out to sea. It is not the only means of circulation on that tank. Also when you have several hundred gallons dumping into a 850g tank in less than 12sec how can that not produce tons of flow.
 
I'm gonna check the other thread out.

Surge devices seem like a good idea, but hundreds of gallons seems like it will put a fair bit of stress on the tank. I'm not debating idea's, as I looked at surge devices and don't mind the idea. I'm not sure if the benefit is worth the disturbance to the water flowing into overflows etc, but it's a personal thing.
 
Merlin: The way that I understand tides is:....there is not a "high flow volume" during tidal changes....it's simply an act of the gravitational pull of the moon that is raising and lowering the surface of the ocean. There is a small current increase, but, nothing that could/needs to be replicated in our "pseudo-oceans".

Jonathan: Some folks like the bubbles, others hate them. Really, there are only bubbles formed like that on the reef at very shallow depths. The depths that the majority of te corals we house are at see no bubbles from wave action, only current. Personally, I like a small amount of air bubbles, but, I can totally understand the concern over salt creep.
 
thanks all-

i didn't see the details info in the st jude's thread. i saw the surge tank in the pix but not the write up.

i agree that most of our corals are below the reef crest and would not be exposed to the intense wave action with bubbles.

however the Acroporas that we love just might be.

this is part of the fun/stress deciding what to do.

if i do have a surge above the tank and don't like it i can always decrease the flow to it and turn it into a refusium.

how do auto top offs accomodate surge tanks?

i imagine it will still keep the salinity constant with a slight variation.
 
you can tag along by clicking the "subscribe to this thread" seen just below and to the right. then we don't all get a notification that there is a post to the thread, click on the link to see the post only to find it is someone tagging along.

thanks
 
Why not put a refugium inside the surge tank? I'm not sure if you could do it in a Carlson type but you could with a motorized ball valve--just put the outlet pipe where you want the surface of the refugium to be. It will decrease the volume of the surge (or you would need a larger container), probably be expensive, and maybe a PITA, but at least you'd be different! :)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12317093#post12317093 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by merlin_451
It simulates the high flow volume you get before high tide as water rushes onto the reef and low tide as water rushes back out to sea. It is not the only means of circulation on that tank. Also when you have several hundred gallons dumping into a 850g tank in less than 12sec how can that not produce tons of flow.
Click to expand...

You are only getting that high flow during that twelve seconds. That is in no way replicating a reef during tidal changes. Perhaps you are confusing currents with tides?

Tides take hours to come and go. Low tide and high tide are hours apart. Slack tide is the only short part of the cycle, and that is usually a period of lessened flow.
 
For those of you criticizing the use of surge deviced, you should do a little more resrearch as they are an excellent way to provide water movement in larger reef systems. Research the Wakiki Aquarium. They have grown more coral over the years than any one else on Earth and they utlize surge tanks designed by the legendary Bruce Carlson as their main source of water movement. Do your homework before becoming critics.
 
Do YOUR research before you post. The Waikiki surge fires every 3 - 5 minutes.

Wave-impact and tide pool environments
These shallow pools simulate conditions in a Hawaiian tidepool. There's a surge of water that enters the pool every three to five minutes to simulate the wave impact zone. The shingle urchin, or hä 'uke 'uke, is a deep purple color and is nearly smooth. Its round shape helps it survive at the edge of the sea in pounding surf.
Click to expand...

This exactly what us "critics" are talking about. Firing a surge device a couple times a day to simulate tides is not really doing anything related to tides nor providing any meaningful flow to a captive reef. Combining air injection might be another story and have some benefit for the coral health.

And let me add that I am not criticizing the St. Judes Project. it is an admirable system and I really am impressed with many aspects of it, as well as all the people that came together to make it happen. You couldn't ask for a better experience for the children treated there nor a better learning experience.

I admire the way the project was managed particularly when it was built during a building construction process and through dealing with a beaurocracy like a hospital. That cannot be easy.
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12316867#post12316867 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jnarowe
Sorry guys but I have to call BS on that. While the surge tank at St. Judes has a serious cool factor, it is not providing much flow. Using it to "simulate tides" is rediculous since tides have nothing to do with a temporary inflow of water.
Click to expand...

Maybe I wasn't being clear. I don't mean that any type of water level change is going on. I'm saying that it's simulating the high flow volumes that occur during tidal changes, which is what it was designed to do and it does very well. This is not a temporary inflow of water. We're talking tens of thousands of gallons of water dumping from two surge tanks over a couple hour period.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12316867#post12316867 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jnarowe

For practical flow purposes, unless it is constantly firing all day, it's not adding much to your reef's flow. IMO if you were to inject air then there would be some value in running it a couple times per day to clarify the water and get the corals sliming a la Weatherson.
Click to expand...

Again the surge tanks are not the primary means of circulation. If your tank relied solely on surge tanks for water movement then of course you would want to keep it running all the time.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12316867#post12316867 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jnarowe

To spend that kind of time and money on a surge device and use it just a couple times a day seems awfully wasteful while adding complexity and maintanance to the overall project. There are much better ways to provide flow than surge tanks.
Click to expand...

I completely disagree on this one.

This system runs somewhere around 4 to 6 hours a day. During this time it's washing the rocks and coral of any detritus that may have settled and stimulating the corals to grow thicker and stronger like they would in nature.
During the rest of the day the tank gets plenty of flow from a bunch of stream pumps. There is no need to run the surge tanks all the time nor would you want that much circulation around the clock.


-Merlin Macias
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12317139#post12317139 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JCTewks
Merlin: The way that I understand tides is:....there is not a "high flow volume" during tidal changes....it's simply an act of the gravitational pull of the moon that is raising and lowering the surface of the ocean. There is a small current increase, but, nothing that could/needs to be replicated in our "pseudo-oceans".

Click to expand...



I take it you've never done any diving. and I don't mean that in a mean way. But as a surfer, comercial diver and avid scuba diver, let me tell a little about tidal currents.

Most of what your saying is in fact correct. But your way off on the current thing.
In some areas tidal current can get up to 20 knots.
When the tide comes in or goes out it will literally rip you off the reef and tear the goggles off your head.

Most of the time you have to plan your dive around slack tide. Unless your into drift diving. Here maybe this article will give you an idea of what I'm talking about.
http://www.divinglore.com/RecreationalDriftDiving.htm

-Merlin Macias
 
4 - 6 hours a day is much different than "at high tide and low tide". I don't see in the St. Judes thread any final numbers on what they are doing with the surges.

I would ceratinly be curious about the math that can get tens of thousands of gallons through 2 x 65 gal. surge tanks in a couple of hours. Is it a couple of hours or 6 hours?

Anyway, I would hate to drag this thread down with an argument about surge tanks. The thread's author can take my opinion for what it's worth.
 
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