700 gallon tank, or how i spent my daughters inheritance

[Reefski's]

some of this may be redundant.

I have been reading these posts with great interest. http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic93983-9-1.aspx

I have also just read the old article about vodka dosing. http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-11/eb/feature/index.php

Also Chuck’s “idea” thread is a great read and discussion full of things to think about. http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic94112-9-2.aspx#bm94490

I have a confession to make and I need advice and encouragement about my husbandry practices and how to get from here to there.

My big problem is high PO4 levels. Like 0.72ppm

But first I need to tell you about my system. Some of this I know you know.

700 gallon tank with skylight for most of the light.

I could not connect the sumps until September.

Sumps are in the garage under the tank and has four connected bins with total volume about 675 gallons, with two additional glass tanks over them with 250 gallons each. Overflows from the tank come mostly into container number one and some into the glass tanks which overflows into the main sump.

The bins except number four have about 4” of fine sand like in the tank. And lots of live rock on top of that including number four. Much of the rock is full of stuff, tunicates, sponges, forams, etc.

I have a big skimmer, calcium reactor and ATS too. the skimmer produces a gallon a day of dark skimmate, even before the Vodka dosing.

The ATS is only now starting to be ready to harvest algae regularly, like once a week or less the last couple of weeks. Lots of pods in that tank, and the other tanks for that matter.

The tank was set up for months with just dead sand and live rock. by the time I put fish in there was a prolific population of worms and other critters in the sand.

No filter socks. Lots of particulates in the water all the time.

I use carbon and ozone.

My goal is to be able to run the tank skimmerless using just the export of the ATS and growth of critters.

I have quite a few big fish that I feed well, at least I think I feed them well. They look very muscular and healthy, in a buff, not anorexic way and are all growing.

I have been feeding the Borneman recipe for a few years. The latest batch is squid, clams, shrimp, mussels, Cyclops, mysis, rotifers, Selco and some flake food and a couple other items.

I have high PO4 and no algae to speak of except on the screen. The tangs keep it short in the tank.

I have used GFO but stopped a few weeks ago when I had some tip die off of Acros which from what I have read seems to be from fluctuating alkalinity levels.

I have started dosing Kalk a couple of weeks ago in addition to the Calcium reactor.

My alk, Ca, and Mg levels are stable.

So I have these high PO4 levels and don’t know what to do. Then I read the article in Reefkeeping about Vodka dosing, (yes Chuck, I confess, I started dosing Vodka our of desperation). I am just about done with a bottle, up to 30 ml per day and no reduction in PO4. I should have just drunk it but I haven’t been drunk since I was nineteen. That was almost forty years ago.

I just realized that my DI unit was in need of recharging. I have no idea how long I have been putting tap water in my system ever time I top off which is 10-20 gallons per day. TDS levels of my tapwater are about 200 ppm.

When I tested the tap water for PO4 I just about died. It instantly turned a dark blue and was off the scale of my tester which only goes to 2.75 ppm

So I have been adding lots of PO4 to my system for I don’t know how long.

I don’t think the whole PO4 issue is from the top off water, but maybe it is.

Tomorrow’s job is to recharge my DI resin.

I want to use natural methods as much as possible. I would like to eliminate the skimmer once I get the levels down.

Weirdly enough, most of the corals are still growing.

Despite this one of the Acros has started growing after months.

What to do now?

Abruptly stop the Vodka dosing?

Taper off?

Resume GFO until the levels decrease?

I did about a 600 gallon water change over the last four days. I have another 5-600 gallons on hand and will keep going with that too. it did decrease the PO4 about 30%.

I let the water run out from the overflow to the sink drain and simultaneously add the same amt back from the cistern in the yard.

thank you all for your expertise

 

[melev]

Here's what I know - and I'm not Chuck nor Eric Borneman. My own reef in 2005 was overloaded with phosphates, due to a high fish load, having no idea how much food was actually necessary, and an underpowered/underrated protein skimmer. PO4 levels were measuring at 3.0ppm, yes 3.0! I had corals RTN and didn't know what to do. I tried just about every GFO on the market: Phosban, RowaPhos, Silphos, Phoslock, generic GFO, Phosguard, Phosphate extracting pads and granules... you name it, I bought it and tried it. The PO4 would drop down, but rise again because it had reached a saturation point in my tank and would continue to leach out of the rock and sand for months to come.

The one product that worked and worked well was Caribsea's Phosbuster Pro. It is a liquid flocculant, and a bottle treats 250g of water. Back then, the only known issue was that Yellow Tangs died after the tank was dosed. It was a mystery, but many died based on the threads I read and people I spoke to. The product would drop the alkalinity briefly, and it was theorized that this was the blame. I don't know.

Whenever I dosed my tank, I buffered up the alkalinity 20 minutes prior to dosing, and then poured it in. My tank took 1.5 bottles per dose, and it would cloud up. I chose to dose at night when the fish were sleeping & hidden in the rockwork. By morning, the water was clear and the skimmer was full of white paste-like skimmate. PO4 was 0. It would rise again, because it was leaching out. And my feedings didn't help much either. Cutting back on how much nori I put in the tank did help. By the end of 2005 (Dec 31, at 11:30pm), I was happy to announce that the PO4 was completely down to 0 and staying there.

I went back to GFO in a phosban reactor, but never got good results from it. I followed the instructions, read many threads by happy owners, but my tank would slowly climb back up to .5 to 1ppm over time, so I'd combat it with water changes and by dosing Phosbuster Pro every 6 to 8 weeks, I'd guess.

I think Blue Life USA came out with Phosphate Control about 1.5 years ago, where you drip in their product drop by drop based on what the level you are trying to decrease. It too is a flocculant, turning PO4 into a solid to be exported via skimming (or a filter sock). It is very likely Lanthanum chloride, which could be purchased at a pool supply store. However, their product is affordable, and a single bottle will treat my system three or four times before I run out.

Again, I drop it in at night while the reef is at rest. My system is roughly 340g, but I dose as if it were 400g. I'm using 120 drops, which knocks it back to zero by morning. The only thing in my tank that appears to not like it are some Lavender Frilly mushrooms. I don't see any flocculant on the rockwork, in the overflows, nor in the sump. The skimmer exports it beautifully.

I don't dose it often, but rather when PO4 rises in my tank. When the levels get to .25 to .5, that is when I'll dose it. However, with my Vodka dosings, it appears that I'm finally at the balance point where it is going to keep them down permanently ( I can hope, right?). I've not using any in over 4 weeks, and as of last night, the level in my tank is .03ppm (aka perfect), and I'm happy to report that.

I'm dosing 13ppm of Vodka daily, which is far cheaper than what it was costing me in GFO when I used to run that. I'm still working on lowering my nitrate, but I have no qualms at all by using either Phosbuster Pro or Phosphate Control to bring the numbers down where they belong.

I know you are very keen on natural filtration. The only mechanical thing in my system is the skimmer. I have a refugium, a DSB, a calcium reactor, and run 2-3 cups of fresh carbon every two weeks in a Phosban Reactor. I don't use kalkwasser, ozone, nor UV. I've only done three water changes in the past six months, primarily because I wanted to see what the vodka would do. I do use RO/DI water, and it is phosphate free. You definitely want to get that resolved.

 

[Reefski's]

the ATS was ready to clean after three days but it hasn't been done yet and it's been over a week. i worked on recharging the Kati Ani unit which i was ble to get back in service just today. the tank is about 50 gallons short. salinity isn't barely increased.

i have to do some more research on the kati ani recharging. after recharging the tds is still 22 and the PO4 is 0.06 nothing like it was last week though and i have no choice but to use it.

i was struck by a bad case of the flu. every muscle aches, headache, extreme fatigue, 102 fever and haven't been out of bed in four days. until today when i just had to reconnect the kati ani and start adding top off water back to the tank.

of course other things happened too. the CO2 cylinder is empty on the Ca reactor and i couldn't make Kalk without DI water, actually i was using tank water the last few days after i stopped using city water but my family couldn't be asked to do that. or i couldn't explain it to them, smart as they are.

dKH dropped from 11 where i like to keep it to 8 in just four days. i didn't feel like testing calcium but i am sure it is down too.

the family was feeding the fish, i don't know how much. maybe less than i do. the tangs were showing a bit of aggression when i finally got downstairs today. the foxface was chasing the Naso tang around.

on a positive note the PO4 in the tank is 0.31 today. not great but the lowest reading i have had in many months. maybe not adding really high PO4 city water to the tank is doing something. or maybe when i go back to feeding more food it will go up again.

this whole episode of illness makes me think about what a delicate balance there is in our tanks. in just four days some parameters can get out of whack. and i need to have a better list for the family of how to do it.

this photo is from UCSB's lagoon where i go to get water.
there were about 40 herons around the lagoon fishing. and they were catching some fish too.

i had a couple in my neighbors tree too last week. not a good thing here. i don't want them fishing in my pond.

 

[Mr. Brooks]

You drive all the way up to UCSB from Venice?

 

[karm40]

There were a couple there? yikes!!! I've only seen the one on my roof. I hear their good eatin'!!!

 

[Reefski's]

i do drive all the way there. it is 200 miles round trip for me and my iPod. i can now get about 1400 gallons at a time for a tank of gas and my time, but that is free. i'm glad the price of gas has dropped.

Mark, did take a couple of pictures but haven't taken them off the camera yet. there were actually three in the big sycamore across the street.

are these the endangered ones?

the dogs would be effective deterrents if i locked them outside all the time but they spent the day keeping me company on my bed.

 

[Mr. Brooks]

Wow. Can you post a pic of your truck set up? I'd like to see how you move 1400 gallons from UCSB to your house.

I'd heard the water coming out of UCSB had high phosphates. Are you sure your source water isn't the cause of some of your issues?

 

[Reefski's]

i thought i had a picture in the thread of my truck but i don't think i do.

i have a ford F550.
and these go in it plus another 400 gallon one.

regarding the phosphates, the last batch tested at 0.03ppm which i can live with. i don't think that is my source of the high phosphates in my tank.

Carl

 

[erics3000]

Glad you are making progress..

Nice truck any pics of it.

 

[CJBDFRAZ]

I have been reading about the ATS system and they appear to be very efficient. Do you think it played a big role in lowering your PO4 and would you advise other people to use an ATS also. I don't notice a lot people on RC using them.

 

[Reefski's]

i can't say for sure yet. i had some huge inputs from my city water that i wasn't aware of but since i stopped adding that water last week the PO4 levels have dropped a lot. not good yet though.

i am confident that it is a great addition to my system. another few weeks and i will let you know.

the real test will be if i can take my skimmer off line one of these days.

today PO4 was 0.34ppm.

 

[plyr58]

I keep reading that you want a naturally filtered tank and want to take the skimmer offline. Why do you want to take the skimmer offline? Foam fractionation is a natural filtration mechanism.

Google the Cappuccino Coast.

 

[Reefski's]

i would hope to take the skimmer offline one day when the sumps are being productive. i want the stuff that the skimmer removes to feed a rich diverse population of critters in the other parts of the tank that will in turn feed the corals and fish in the tank.

by having a large sump area i think this will be possible. i hope to export nutrients via the turf scrubber.

if i could eliminate the skimmer i could save some more electricity. it draws 250 watts per hour. it uses one of four hammerheads on the system.

i would like to model my system after that of Eric Borneman who has run many of his tanks skimmerless with a smaller sump.

here is some interesting reading about feeding, skimming, tank tank maturity and what that means.
http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic93983-9-1.aspx

http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic23945-9-1.aspx

http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic20086-9-1.aspx

http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic71360-9-1.aspx

a couple of tank pix from today with only sunlight.

PO4 was 0.32 this morning. slowly coming down.

 

[Mr. Brooks]

What about setting up the skimmer to be gravity fed with dirty tank water, then have the tank fed with cleaner yet pod rich sump water? You can get rid of waste while still producing food.. I can't imagine you'd be able to fully export all the fish waste by natural means in a closed system.. Maybe I'm wrong? We'll have to wait and see.

 

[Reefski's]

my skimmer can't be gravity fed. it needs a strong pump.

did you read any of the links?

i think it is very possible given other export through the ATS and the large sumps with sand beds and lots of live rock.

and time for it all to mature.

like you said, we shall see. it is a big ol experiment.

when the tank was first set up before there were fish there were 100's of mysis shrimp in the tank. now i barely see one or two at night. there are still lots in the sump.

early on the sand bed was covered with flatworms 1,000's of them. then one day they were just gone. haven't seen one since. they came and went before the fish went in.

now there is still algae in the tank. however it is constantly grazed so is kept very short.

reading the work of Ron Shimek, each trophic level in the tank extracts about 10% of the energy. that means that fish poop still has a lot of energy, and a good ecosystem can extract that energy and feed much of it back to the tank as gametes and other critters that get consumed.

corals have lots of mouths for a reason. to capture food and they need to be fed. the are not as autotrophic as many treat them. if they didn't need to eat so much they wouldn't have so many mouths.

 

[sfsuphysics]

Not to criticize, but maybe a skimmer with some more efficient pumps? Or maybe a smaller skimmer while the other parts takes a piece of the load?

Either way I'd be worried about going skimmerless simply because on a system that large any changes might be too slow to notice until it hits a point of "uh oh"

But that being said, with proper planning like you're doing I think it'd definitely be possible.

 

[Reefski's]

it is ok to criticize. i welcome the input. Mike have you been to the Steinhart yet?

the Hammerhead is very efficient and the one recommended by the manufacturer. the MyReefCreations c4848 is a great skimmer. the best i have had. very well made, very easy to take apart and clean. it helps that it is out in the open and not under the tank, well it is under the tank, but not under the tank in a stand.

the Aqua-C 400 i had on the 260 gallon tank hardly removed anything. i probably didn't know how to tune it. i wound up running that tank skimmerless for the last couple of years it was running.

if it gets to the point where nitrates and PO4 are very low i will start to decrease the hours the skimmer runs, and then the days it runs.

of course monitoring it all the while.

that is part of the fun of having a reef tank, trying new things.

I believe Inland Aquatics in Indiana, I think, has many thousands of gallons of marine tanks, running using Turf scrubbers and NO water changes, and no skimmers.

there is info about that in one of the links above.

Carl

 

[Reefski's]

a couple random pictures.

the Elegance coral when i first got it about two years ago.

after a feeding of fine particulate food.

random cool looking rock.

i cleaned the ATS two days ago and today the PO4 was back up to 0.38 after being at 0.32

if i don't clean the acrylic for a couple of days it is soon covered with hundreds of little critters too small to really see what they are.

PAR values during mid day for a few hours are up about 600 PAR.

have you seen the show "Equator-Reef of Riches" episode? it's a really great show about the Indo-Pacific reefs. the part i just watched showed a school of convict tangs and they made the point that if it wasn't for the grazers the reef would be overrun with algae.

something else i noticed in the show is that there is a constant amount of "stuff" in the water floating around. clear water doesn't mean devoid of all particulates.

i have noticed in my tank now that the sumps are maturing that there is a constant amount of stuff in my water too. i don't know if it is dead or alive but i don't want to filter or skim it all out. i still have a lot of light in the tank so it doesn't bother me that the water is not crystal clear. you can still see the the 8 foot length of the tank easily.

 

[Reefski's]

feeding time.

 

[Reefski's]

the tank gets about this much twice a day. as does the 250 tank in the garage that has 3 big fish, and 5 small fish, a coral banded shrimp, and about ten RBTA's.

home made food plus Brine shrimp direct golden pearls and flake food.

the Elegance now.