700 gallon tank, or how i spent my daughters inheritance
- Thread starter Reefski's
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Reefski's
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an update-
my PO4 level today was 0.32ppm. nitrates 2.0ppm
the ATS is getting good growth. kind of hard to clean all or even most of the algae off of it. so it needs to be cleaned every 3-4 days now.
i have stopped using GFO. it causes problems with alkalinity and my acros don't like that.
i am however still dosing Vodka. i am reluctant to stop until i can get the PO4 levels down. although it doesn't seem to really be decreasing the levels.
do you think i could just stop cold turkey and let the natural methods take over?
i am still running my skimmer of course and making about 1 gallon per day of thick, dark skimmate.
what is the highest level that corals can tolerate of PO4 and still grow? in other words when can i stop worrying? what is the level to strive for? 0.01? or what?
on another note-
as the days get longer on sunny days i am getting par values of 1000-1200 for a few hours during the day. today is not sunny and levels are much lower. i haven't measured them today.
should i worry about too much light on the Micromussa, Favia, Moni Caps, Elegance, Platygyra, Tubestrea, Acans, Gorgonia, and other LPS corals?
i bought some prefilters for the Kati Ani unit, three prefilters, 20 micron, 1 micron, and carbon. i am setting that up today to be in a better spot and with the prefilters.
my PO4 level today was 0.32ppm. nitrates 2.0ppm
the ATS is getting good growth. kind of hard to clean all or even most of the algae off of it. so it needs to be cleaned every 3-4 days now.
i have stopped using GFO. it causes problems with alkalinity and my acros don't like that.
i am however still dosing Vodka. i am reluctant to stop until i can get the PO4 levels down. although it doesn't seem to really be decreasing the levels.
do you think i could just stop cold turkey and let the natural methods take over?
i am still running my skimmer of course and making about 1 gallon per day of thick, dark skimmate.
what is the highest level that corals can tolerate of PO4 and still grow? in other words when can i stop worrying? what is the level to strive for? 0.01? or what?
on another note-
as the days get longer on sunny days i am getting par values of 1000-1200 for a few hours during the day. today is not sunny and levels are much lower. i haven't measured them today.
should i worry about too much light on the Micromussa, Favia, Moni Caps, Elegance, Platygyra, Tubestrea, Acans, Gorgonia, and other LPS corals?
i bought some prefilters for the Kati Ani unit, three prefilters, 20 micron, 1 micron, and carbon. i am setting that up today to be in a better spot and with the prefilters.
Reefski's
Active member
Marc-
i asked Bob Fenner what he thought of the Golden Pearls and he was very fond of them.
why don't you think they are a good addition? all the various size fish as well as the corals like them.
you can see them in the Gorgonian in this photo. i might add that the Gorgonian has probably tripled in size in a few months.
here is a question for you Marc. is my Math right on the Blue Vet Phosphate control?
it says 6 drops per 10gallons to reduce 0.05ppm to zero.
my system is 1500 gallons at 0.35ppm
how many drops is that?
i think that is 6X7X150=6300 drops. that is a lot of drops. a lot more than one or two 1oz bottles.
Carl
i asked Bob Fenner what he thought of the Golden Pearls and he was very fond of them.
why don't you think they are a good addition? all the various size fish as well as the corals like them.
you can see them in the Gorgonian in this photo. i might add that the Gorgonian has probably tripled in size in a few months.
here is a question for you Marc. is my Math right on the Blue Vet Phosphate control?
it says 6 drops per 10gallons to reduce 0.05ppm to zero.
my system is 1500 gallons at 0.35ppm
how many drops is that?
i think that is 6X7X150=6300 drops. that is a lot of drops. a lot more than one or two 1oz bottles.
Carl
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Reefski's
Active member
ah, what to do? i got the bottle out and it says 6 drops will lower the PO4 by 1ppm in ten gallons. that is a 20 fold difference from what it says on the box.
i emailed them. haven't heard back.
that is poor customer service, or something bad.
can't wait to hear back. i won't have time until monday to start using it anyway.
tomorrow is Valentine's day and Steak and Lobster dinner for us. and sunday is the San Diego Koi show which should be great fun.
monday is rain and i can work on the tank day.
Carl
i emailed them. haven't heard back.
that is poor customer service, or something bad.
can't wait to hear back. i won't have time until monday to start using it anyway.
tomorrow is Valentine's day and Steak and Lobster dinner for us. and sunday is the San Diego Koi show which should be great fun.
monday is rain and i can work on the tank day.
Carl
Reefski's
Active member
ok, no more Vodka for me, or should i say my tank.
check out this thread and the science in the references.
http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic60528-9-1.aspx
http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic94515-9-1.aspx
check out this thread and the science in the references.
http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic60528-9-1.aspx
http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic94515-9-1.aspx
melev
Well-known member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14389161#post14389161 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reefski's
Marc-
i asked Bob Fenner what he thought of the Golden Pearls and he was very fond of them.
why don't you think they are a good addition? all the various size fish as well as the corals like them.
you can see them in the Gorgonian in this photo. i might add that the Gorgonian has probably tripled in size in a few months.
here is a question for you Marc. is my Math right on the Blue Vet Phosphate control?
it says 6 drops per 10gallons to reduce 0.05ppm to zero.
my system is 1500 gallons at 0.35ppm
how many drops is that?
i think that is 6X7X150=6300 drops. that is a lot of drops. a lot more than one or two 1oz bottles.
Carl
Golden Pearls are very rich, and you should feed very little to avoid water quality issues. In my experience with it, and I have three jars of it if you want 'em, it leads to cyano blooms in my tanks.
When I make my own fishfood, I'll add maybe 4 of the tiny salifert (white) spoons of GP to my batch. But for the most part, I just don't use it at all.
It could be part of the reason you are measuring those PO4 levels. Whatever you put in the tank needs to be exported, or it breaks down water quality.
The level we aim for is .03ppm - corals can grow in higher levels, but so can algae. .5ppm is already pretty high. At one point, my reef was 3.0 ppm! I had some corals tolerate it, and others died. New frags were quick to die. I'd say .5 is plenty high, and should be lowered.
The Phosphate Control product does have that issue with the dosing instructions. The bottle says one thing, while the box another. I never did hear the final decision.
I use 3 drops per 10g in my system, or 120 drops. That, in the past, has knocked the PO4 from .5 (or less) to 0 overnight. If you use 3 drops per 10g and it isn't strong enough, you should still see a decrease of PO4 by 50%, right? You can always dose again the next night, to remove more phosphate.
With a huge tank, you need a lot of product. There is no doubt about that. Some people are buying Lanthanum chloride at Leslie's Pool Supply, and using that to remove PO4. Gary Majchrzak has a thread about it. Here's his profile, and you can do a search of his posts to find that thread pretty easily:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=7144
Carl,
I'm planning a rather large reef with natural light using a skylight like yours. The tank will be built in a wall and will sit in it's own climate controlled room. I'd like to light the entire room with an large skylight, or multiple skylights. How important is it to run a reflective lined shaft from the skylight to near the tank?
thanks,
Elliott
I'm planning a rather large reef with natural light using a skylight like yours. The tank will be built in a wall and will sit in it's own climate controlled room. I'd like to light the entire room with an large skylight, or multiple skylights. How important is it to run a reflective lined shaft from the skylight to near the tank?
thanks,
Elliott
miwoodar
Likey the bikey
I enjoy following your thread Reefski's. I am hopeful that one day I will live in a house that would let me run a skylight tank. Hopefully your PO4 issues will be a thing of the past soon!
Regarding the vodka additions, I think it is in Delbeek and Sprung's Volume III that included a Kolkot graph that showed a 45 day lag before the vodka kicked in. With some tanks showing an immediate response and others taking as long as 45 days, I don't really think there is any great way to predict when it would kick in if it hasn't already. I can't say it makes sense. We all know that the doubling time of bacteria should mean that response times should be predictable. I have no idea why/how they wouldn't be. If you spend any time on the zeovit forum, you'll find people who are using zeo products that also seem to have such a lag.
Have you ever come across this thread? It's a very interesting read...if for nothing else, at least for the banter. It's a guy that was trying vodka to reduce extremely high (waaay off the scale) nitrates. Vodka was having no impact on his tank. He decided to try water changes and did 200%/month but only got his nitrates down to 70 ppm. He followed up with a vodka approach that dropped his nitrates from 70 to 7 in only 14 days.
http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/showthread.php?t=211460&highlight=nitrate
Regarding the vodka additions, I think it is in Delbeek and Sprung's Volume III that included a Kolkot graph that showed a 45 day lag before the vodka kicked in. With some tanks showing an immediate response and others taking as long as 45 days, I don't really think there is any great way to predict when it would kick in if it hasn't already. I can't say it makes sense. We all know that the doubling time of bacteria should mean that response times should be predictable. I have no idea why/how they wouldn't be. If you spend any time on the zeovit forum, you'll find people who are using zeo products that also seem to have such a lag.
Have you ever come across this thread? It's a very interesting read...if for nothing else, at least for the banter. It's a guy that was trying vodka to reduce extremely high (waaay off the scale) nitrates. Vodka was having no impact on his tank. He decided to try water changes and did 200%/month but only got his nitrates down to 70 ppm. He followed up with a vodka approach that dropped his nitrates from 70 to 7 in only 14 days.
http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/showthread.php?t=211460&highlight=nitrate
Reefski's
Active member
III
III
i think the reflective shaft was key. it directs the light to the tank for a much longer time than even a huge skylight open in the room. much more even light. it still bounces around and lights different parts of the tank more than others at certain times of day.
right now there is no sun directly onto the tank. it is all reflected light. i don't remember when in the year the sun starts to hit the tank directly.
we contemplated other options from Kalwall for the whole room, $33,000 plus installation, to a 15x15 skylight in the middle of the room, $15,000 plus installation. neither would have put nearly as much light in the tank as we are getting. i might add that i would rather have the light in the tank and not the room. it makes watching TV much better too!
the skylight we used was acrylic, made by Laine-aire.com, $1,000. installed by us, $??? not much
the skylight is openable which i think is important for venting in the hotter months. it has been closed right now during the cooler months.
the shaft itself was part of the framing for the whole house, cost $a couple hours of framing.
the lining for the shaft is Anolux III http://anomet.com/cgi-bin/online/storepro.php about $2,000
it is not on the website but they also sell 4x8 sheets which is what we used.
if i do it again one day i would do it the same, however if the shaft could be shorter that might be good. or maybe not. that summer sun can get very intense. which brings up another topic, temperature which might be a concern for some in other parts of the world, even other parts of Los Angeles.
overheating was not a problem last year even though i did not have the sumps connected under the tank with it's additional water volume to help moderate the temp. the tanks in the garage are light with 3 400 watt lamps on a reverse daylight period.
the highest temp the tank reached was 86. this was only for a couple of days when the outside temps got to 90 which is about the hottest we get here. both Ron Shimek and Eric Borneman have told me that is not too high and nothing to worry about. and a daily fluctuation of a few degrees is actually good. after reading some of their references i am convinced most people keep their tanks at too cool of a temperature. much electicity costs of chilling could be saved by running your tanks a few degrees higher.
Charlie Veron states in his recent book that ideal coral growing temps are 81 degrees.
my tank temp right now is holding steady at about 80-81.5.
i have no chiller and don't think i will ever need one. if a little cooling is needed i will put a fan on the ATS to increase the evaporative cooling. the latent heat of vaporization can remove a lot of heat.
Carl
III
i think the reflective shaft was key. it directs the light to the tank for a much longer time than even a huge skylight open in the room. much more even light. it still bounces around and lights different parts of the tank more than others at certain times of day.
right now there is no sun directly onto the tank. it is all reflected light. i don't remember when in the year the sun starts to hit the tank directly.
we contemplated other options from Kalwall for the whole room, $33,000 plus installation, to a 15x15 skylight in the middle of the room, $15,000 plus installation. neither would have put nearly as much light in the tank as we are getting. i might add that i would rather have the light in the tank and not the room. it makes watching TV much better too!
the skylight we used was acrylic, made by Laine-aire.com, $1,000. installed by us, $??? not much
the skylight is openable which i think is important for venting in the hotter months. it has been closed right now during the cooler months.
the shaft itself was part of the framing for the whole house, cost $a couple hours of framing.
the lining for the shaft is Anolux III http://anomet.com/cgi-bin/online/storepro.php about $2,000
it is not on the website but they also sell 4x8 sheets which is what we used.
if i do it again one day i would do it the same, however if the shaft could be shorter that might be good. or maybe not. that summer sun can get very intense. which brings up another topic, temperature which might be a concern for some in other parts of the world, even other parts of Los Angeles.
overheating was not a problem last year even though i did not have the sumps connected under the tank with it's additional water volume to help moderate the temp. the tanks in the garage are light with 3 400 watt lamps on a reverse daylight period.
the highest temp the tank reached was 86. this was only for a couple of days when the outside temps got to 90 which is about the hottest we get here. both Ron Shimek and Eric Borneman have told me that is not too high and nothing to worry about. and a daily fluctuation of a few degrees is actually good. after reading some of their references i am convinced most people keep their tanks at too cool of a temperature. much electicity costs of chilling could be saved by running your tanks a few degrees higher.
Charlie Veron states in his recent book that ideal coral growing temps are 81 degrees.
my tank temp right now is holding steady at about 80-81.5.
i have no chiller and don't think i will ever need one. if a little cooling is needed i will put a fan on the ATS to increase the evaporative cooling. the latent heat of vaporization can remove a lot of heat.
Carl
Reefski's
Active member
it was an interesting read. i didn't read the whole thing though, did he ever talk about phosphates? my nitrates have never been an issue. never higher than 7ppm. now about 2ppm.
i was up to 60 ml of Vodka dosed 30ml twice a day before i stopped cold turkey.
i started using one of the Phosphate removers a few days ago which likely contains Lanthanum Chloride.
the phosphate level dropped from 0.52 to 0.01 over the last 5 days.
yea!
i have finally gotten the Kati Ani DI unit recharging online. i misread the instructions the first time and used 30 gallons of water instead of 30 liters.
i have also set up prefilters consisting of three canisters with 25 micron, 1 micron, and carbon. now it should be good for 1000's of gallons of top off water.
the recharging is now a fairly easy thing to do. the first container gravity feeds through the unit. i used an airline connector to run the tubing into the unit.
i was at the Long Beach Aquarium over the weekend where they have a wonderful 5,000 gallon reef tank.
they have several Sally Lightfoot crabs in the tank. they don't look reef safe to me. maybe they aren't feeding them enough. i was told they only feed the tank minimally every other day. there are not a lot of fish in the tank. they do 3-4 300 gallon water changes a week, so about 100% per month. they use NSW.
the tank is lit with ten 1000 watt MH and a few actinics.
they also had a yellow spotted file fish that was continually eating coral polyps all over the tank. a very beautiful fish. i hope to have enough coral in my tank one day to support one.
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Reefski's
Active member
Surge thoughts-
future expansion plans for a surge.
i have only seen one surge in person that was on a 400 gallon home aquarium that had problems with bubbles, and noise.
that is why i have been reluctant to add one to my tank. but if i could have one that was quiet and reliable that would be fantastic
the ones i have seen at the Waikiki Aquarium and Atlantis Marine World were over tanks that had more open room over the tank but they did procuce a lot of bubbles, which i know from Eric Bornemans writing are not a bad thing for the corals in and of themselves.
when i built my system i put a closet above and next to the tank for an eventual surge system.
i have two 75 gallon tanks i can use there. they are 3x2x2. the configuration of the closet necessitates one is over the other.
one is to be an unlit refugium and the other a surge or i have tried to think of how to make the bottom one an ATS that would be flushed into the tank from the surge. i actually have three of these tanks and may have room in the closet for three of them one over the other.
what do you think about the idea of the surge being on top and surging into the refugium which would stir things up and then from there into the tank. i would build and test it out side the house to make sure i wasn't spilling water all over the house. do you think that would be too much flow for a healthy refugium?
and what would you put in there. rock, rubble, large size sand, all the above or what?
or maybe just the surge as i have a lot of refugium area with the 700 gallons of sump i have under the tank.
it's great to have options but it can be a little daunting too. i only get to do it once. that is what my wife says.
my feed pump would have to be in the display tank.
Carl
future expansion plans for a surge.
i have only seen one surge in person that was on a 400 gallon home aquarium that had problems with bubbles, and noise.
that is why i have been reluctant to add one to my tank. but if i could have one that was quiet and reliable that would be fantastic
the ones i have seen at the Waikiki Aquarium and Atlantis Marine World were over tanks that had more open room over the tank but they did procuce a lot of bubbles, which i know from Eric Bornemans writing are not a bad thing for the corals in and of themselves.
when i built my system i put a closet above and next to the tank for an eventual surge system.
i have two 75 gallon tanks i can use there. they are 3x2x2. the configuration of the closet necessitates one is over the other.
one is to be an unlit refugium and the other a surge or i have tried to think of how to make the bottom one an ATS that would be flushed into the tank from the surge. i actually have three of these tanks and may have room in the closet for three of them one over the other.
what do you think about the idea of the surge being on top and surging into the refugium which would stir things up and then from there into the tank. i would build and test it out side the house to make sure i wasn't spilling water all over the house. do you think that would be too much flow for a healthy refugium?
and what would you put in there. rock, rubble, large size sand, all the above or what?
or maybe just the surge as i have a lot of refugium area with the 700 gallons of sump i have under the tank.
it's great to have options but it can be a little daunting too. i only get to do it once. that is what my wife says.
my feed pump would have to be in the display tank.
Carl
gig
New member
Hey Reefski, I have one SL crab and I've never seen him touch a coral in my tank, but I have LPS and Softies, the guy in that video is going after SPS.
They are supposed to be algae eaters, I only seem him grazing on algae on the walls and rocks and also will go after free floating food when I feed the tank.
They are supposed to be algae eaters, I only seem him grazing on algae on the walls and rocks and also will go after free floating food when I feed the tank.
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