700 gallon tank, or how i spent my daughters inheritance

thanks Marc, it is really frustrating when i look at your tank and compare to mine i just want to cry. so i really appreciate your encouragement.

i think my total water volume is about 1700 gallons.

i am not giving up although i am not buying any acros for a while.

the sad part is i did read the manual each time i did the recharging and i was a math major in high school. now i need to find that new AC cartridge so i can change it too.


Carl
 
Aw man... don't let it get you down. I just read that three page thread on Marine Depot that you linked, and got a quicker overview of your tank even though I've been following this thread for some time now. Keep in mind my tank is almost 5 years old. I've seen much prettier tanks that weren't as old as mine, and I'm sure there are very good reasons for that. Younger tanks go through all kinds of swings, and your tinkering can be a negative versus keeping your hands out of the tank.

1700g - wow. That's a lot of water.

Salt - If you are going to go that route and make your own, you do have the cost to consider of making RO/DI water. I think your Kati/Ani system won't work out so well for tap water unfortunately, but that is your call. The bad thing is the 4:1 ratio using an RO system. I've used Kent, Oceanic, Instant Ocean, and Red Sea Pro Reef. I'll never use IO again, and I had a bad nine months with Oceanic when it first came out. A few years ago, Kent had a bad batch that went out nationally, and many tanks took a huge hit. The salt lacked alkalinity in a big way. Kent sent me new buckets to replace the bad ones, but told me I could keep the old and just buffer up the alkalinity. I still have them to this day, clearly marked so if I do use them, I'll remember to add baked baking soda first. I was actually doing that with a couple of barrels I made up, because the pH was measuring so low - I didn't even know the problem extended to anyone else until a LFS in Arkansas called me up and asked about it, and linked me to a thread here on RC. The other salt I've been using for a few years is Red Sea Pro. I like it. It dissolves well, and the numbers are good.

No matter what brand of salt you use, each time you open a new bucket you need to measure the normal stuff to make sure it is a good batch. This is just a good practice to be in. With your system, every bucket would probably be used in its entirety, since you'll probably mix up 160 to 200g at a time. For my system, I make up 55g at a time, which means a bucket lasts about 3 water changes (or six months - LOL). I know I don't change water as fast as others, and now that I just bought that 250g reservoir, I might try changing more frequently to see if my reef suddenly surprises me. Not that it really has room for a growth spurt, but it would be nice to see some corals get bigger finally.

The concrete pads in your reef - I've seen it done before, and I don't know that it is a problem that you have to worry about now. Usually any concrete stuff that we make or use is soaked in fresh water for 6 weeks or so, to make sure the pH is stable (and end any spikes). That would be a good time to measure PO4 as well. Since you did this a year ago, it might be pointless but if you happen to still have one of those you could do a test just to get peace of mind. Whatever it might have had in the concrete before would have leached out by now, especially with you using PO4 removers as you have.

I didn't expect the Vodka discussion to go well over there - LOL - but you probably never hit that magic level where it makes the difference. Remember, it took my tank 7 months to hit the number where the nitrates dropped finally. At 11 months now, NO3 continues to measure 0, I'm happy to say. The birdsnest in my tank never looked this good.

The resistance to using Lanthanum chloride seems to not be unusual. I was surprise that the Dallas World Aquarium doesn't use it, for example. Eric's comments indicate that he's not on board with it either, at least for now. Dosing it in the display in an area of high flow is what I've done in the past, but I've also simply dripped it into the return section of my sump. Within a few minutes the entire system looks a bit cloudy. The only coral that doesn't like it are the Lavendar Frilly mushrooms, and a day later they seem back to normal. I also dose it late at night when the fish are at rest, as I do think it can't be good for their gills. Swimming through it actively versus just resting; I tend to hope that less activity means less respiration and hopefully avoid doing them any damage.
 
thank you for your thoughtful answer.

i'm not quite ready yet to give up on the NSW, at least as long as i have a truck to go get it in. i have tried to sell the truck for the past few weeks and NO inquires at all.

i am thinking of putting an RO in the line of the filters. i can always use the waste water in my yard.

can i buy just the RO part and plumb it inline after the prefilters and before the DI?

i am redesigning the turf filter to hopefully use water i have already pumped, ie, no more electricity to use it and only lighting.

the LC gets dripped into a 1 or 5 micron sock in the sump and if i drip it slowly never clouds the water and all stays in the sock for easy removal.
 
You might consider talking to water filter company that manages dialysis centers. There was a thread on here several years ago about someone who had a maintainance company handling huge DI filters for his tank. Perhaps one of these companies could help in a cost effective way to filtering larger amounts of water without the waste of a RO filter. You can easily find a company near you by calling some dialysis centers around town and find out who manages their water.

Matt
 
Yes, since you have the prefilters and the DI, you definitely could install the RO membrane section between them. Also, considering the size of your system, it might be better for you to use 20" filters instead of 10" filters. Most LFS have RO systems with 20" filters because of the amount of water they make daily.

Have you ever determined your daily evaporation?

Dosing LC in the sock is working for you, and if you see the PO4 drop in the system, by all means continue. If it doesn't, it might be better to dose the tank instead. The Atlantis Aquarium on the east coast doses it into one of their enormous skimmers.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15193586#post15193586 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by matt & pam
You might consider talking to water filter company that manages dialysis centers. There was a thread on here several years ago about someone who had a maintainance company handling huge DI filters for his tank. Perhaps one of these companies could help in a cost effective way to filtering larger amounts of water without the waste of a RO filter. You can easily find a company near you by calling some dialysis centers around town and find out who manages their water.

Matt

that is an interesting idea but a bit daunting.

i can use the RO waste water in my yard. i would not just run it down the drain.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15193842#post15193842 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melev
Yes, since you have the prefilters and the DI, you definitely could install the RO membrane section between them. Also, considering the size of your system, it might be better for you to use 20" filters instead of 10" filters. Most LFS have RO systems with 20" filters because of the amount of water they make daily.

Have you ever determined your daily evaporation?

Dosing LC in the sock is working for you, and if you see the PO4 drop in the system, by all means continue. If it doesn't, it might be better to dose the tank instead. The Atlantis Aquarium on the east coast doses it into one of their enormous skimmers.

the 20" seems like the way to go. i will investigate that tomorrow.

my daily evaporation is about 10-15 gallons.

the sock works great. drops the level right down in a few hours as it drips in. the sock is in the sump under one of the siphon returns to the sump.

the LC never actually makes it into the system, there is a nice precipitate that forms in the sock.

lighting update-

i ordered a new bulb for the 400 watt DE bulb in the display tank. it was a 14K bulb that was about two years old. it was putting out about 150 PAR at 12" underwater. the new bulb is the IceCap 10K bulb. it is putting out about 650-700 PAR at 12" underwater and 1350 PAR at the water surface 12" under the lamp. what a difference.

i also changed an old 10K SE bulb on the garage tank. it was putting out 350 PAR a few inches underwater. the new 14K bulb is only producing 150 PAR at the same depth. i'll be using the old bulb again until i can get a new 10K bulb. i don't care for the blue look anyway, especially if it is going to decrease the good light for my critters.
 
glad to see you tracked (at least part of) that po4 problem down. those kati/ani instructions confused me a few times as well. i'm using 20" canisters on my setup atm and am very happy with them.

i've mentioned this before i know but it really is easy to test po4 leeching from any suspect block/rock/etc.. just throw it in a bucket of sw, measure po4, wait a bit and test again. no need to spend effort wondering when it'd be so easy for you to know for sure.. jmho.
 
thank you Jason. i am glad i am not the only one that had a problem with the instructions. that isn't quite right but it is comforting to know i am not alone.

i put a block in SW and after a couple of days it didn't read any higher but the water i put it in was already high. i should do it again.

Carl
 
i like to say i am a lot smarter than my wife, after all i picked her... i am the head of the family but she is the neck and whichever way the neck turns...

Happy fathers day all!

Carl
 
no improvement and actually a worsening. some corals i have had for months have RTN'd and a couple of LPS that have never had a problem are losing tissue. i wonder if those are from the much higher water flow. it is the leading edge into the surge that is affected.

i will be able to post some pix tomorrow.
PO4 still is rising every three days or so to 0.15-0.18 and then i treat with LC. so something in my system is leaching or producing PO4. i don't think i am feeding that much to make it rise so quickly just from the food.

i had not done a water change until yesterday after the DI correction. i wanted to not do too many changes. although i did add MgCl which i had not done in a few weeks just about the time the new RTN event started. i wonder if it could be a contaminant in the MgCl, or the top off water. it could still be contamination from the scoop in the MgCl.

even though it seems like i have solved the top off water problem, PO4 0.0 and tds 1ppm, i wonder if i should still get a RO membrane to run. am i still adding something in the top off water that is not good?

i am using up the end of the NSW this week and will switch to ASW at least for a while to see if there is a difference.

it is the first day of summer today and there is plenty of light in the tank.

i am very frustrated.
 
here are some depressing pictures of some more dying corals.

this one has been in my tank for over a year.
IMG_1420.jpg


this one bleached within a couple of days. i had had it for about 3 months.
IMG_1409.jpg


this one i have had for many months.
IMG_1411.jpg


i have had this one for many months, it was the first Acro in my tank.
IMG_1413.jpg


and yet this one is still growing and seemingly fine.
IMG_1421.jpg


even some LPS corals are affected.
IMG_1412.jpg

IMG_1364.jpg


others seem unaffected.
IMG_1425.jpg


there are others both good and bad that i don't have pictures of.

i am in the process of changing out the last 500 gallons of NSW this week. i have not done a water change in about 2 months i am in the process of changing out the last 500 gallons of NSW this week.

i have not done a water change in about 2 months while i was trying to figure out what is wrong. this recent round happened with DI filter not working and tap water being used for top off. i don't know if that was the total problem or not. i hope so but the top off water has been corrected for a couple of weeks and some of these have bleached since then.

i do notice a real lack of pods and other small crustaceans in all the tanks. i can understand in the display tank because of the various fish, mandarin, copperband butterfly, two hawkfish, six line wrasse. but i would think there would be a plethora in the other tanks which have a higher water volume than the DT.


Carl
 
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:(

When Steve Weast was trying to save his tank, he used some tap water (200g) and dechlorinator and it still ended up being the Tank Of Death. The tap water surely didn't help your situation.

Have you been watching the PAR values over the past month? Now that we are officially in summer again, could it be that the tank is getting a huge increase in light?

What's the water temperature been lately? You've mentioned that it can swing quite a bit, something I would try to avoid. You mentioned Dr. Ron's stance on how those swings are in nature and not a big deal, but I still tend to think they aren't good for our livestock. After all, where those large swings occur, those corals are used to it, while our tanks tend to have corals from differing oceans and climates that may not tolerate those ups and downs.

Also, where those temperature swings occur, who's verifying that some corals aren't being adversely affected? We know of the 20+ coral types we have in our tank, but in nature are the researchers tracking those like we do in our tanks, or are they merely getting those readings and perhaps not noticing any losses? I don't know the answer to that.
 
i think the tap water is a huge bad influence. i really want to get an RO membrane but Pam says no money for that right now.

we have had June Gloom here and most of the month has been overcast much if not all of the day. Marine influence.

i have been running the halides until noon, two 400 watt 10K bulbs on a light mover. that is keeping it bright in the tank but then when the sun does come out it is MUCH brighter.

air temps have only been in the high 60's and low 70's. right now at 1:30pm air temp is 70.

tank temps do not vary much more that a degree per day.

right now the tank is at 82.3 which will be the high today. the ocean temp in the Philippines is up to 86 now.

the sun is out yesterday and today and PAR values have been up to 1500 over the course of the day for a few hours.

i did have a Favia bleach or at least get very light at the brightest end of the tank. it hasn't recovered at the shadier end of the tank which still gets very bright reflected light but not directly down the shaft.
it also lost some tissue when i moved it from the rockwork onto the sandbed for a few days.
IMG_1371.jpg


i wonder about corals from other tank acclimating to the higher light intensity but the ones that bleached have been with me for many months mostly and were, are have survived other episodes.

maybe it is just the tap water.

this one is now in more direct sun, at least the part that is bleaching. maybe a combination of high light and whatever else is going on. the part a couple inches away in the shade is looking fine.
IMG_0698.jpg
 
the DI filter was recharged just a couple hundred gallons ago. it is already putting out 8-10ppm tds and 0.11 PO4 and who know what else.

i have ordered an RO membrane to add to the system and will not be adding any top off water until i can do so safely. hopefully it will come tomorrow.
salinity probably won't change that much in a few days.

i am very hopeful that the problem all along has been the quality of the top off water.

i thought the DI unit would remove everything from the water and i didn't need an RO unit but i don't believe that is true any more. i thought it was ecofriendly with no waste water. i will be putting the waste line to the yard now.

i have had this Elegance coral for about three years. i am very bummed out that it is dying.

if i get the water quality under control do you think it can recover? should i cut it through the skeleton to cut off the dead/dying part?

IMG_1500.jpg


IMG_1501.jpg


today is only the second day since i stopped adding top off water to the system. i am sure it can make it a few days without top off until i get the RO unit. hopefully it will come tomorrow and i can install it on saturday.

PO4 this afternoon was only 0.04ppm

i will measure the Nitrates on the tap water. i haven't done that.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15263557#post15263557 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kinlayan
did you add any polyfilters or heavy metal removal resins to see if that would help with your corals?

only a small piece of purigen poly filter a week ago. not enough for a system my size. it doesn't say how big a system it is for but it is supposed to last a month.

i have stepped up the amount and frequency of carbon changing. i have been using about 3 pints and changing it every 4-5 days. i was putting it in a 100 micron filter sock a couple of days ago i changed the setup to run through a fluidized bed canister.

only the stony corals and recently a couple of chalices and acans a bit and the Elegance. see the photos above.

what is white pox disease?

Carl
 
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