80g SPS dominated issues

I should have been more clear about that, I don't use Prime weekly with my water changes. I only use Prime when I fill up my ATO reservoir with my own RO/DI water instead of my LFS's RO/DI water. Since I make trips to the LFS once per week, the only time I have to use my own water is when my ATO reservoir goes empty during the middle of the week. I use my own RO/DI maybe once per month if I had to put a number on it.

The skimmer overflowing happens with or without the addition of Prime to the top off water. This thread leads me to believe it's the type of skimmer: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2151411

Also, the reason I am using water from my LFS was because of my distrust for my RO/DI unit when it comes to removing chloramines. I began using water from my LFS to minimize any variables that could have originally been causing these problems. If I can get the tank on track, I will begin making my own water again instead of buying it all.
 
Some guys from that thread I linked in post 82 seem to think that all Octopus brand skimmers do that after a water change. Otherwise I have no clue. I'm planning on replacing it anyway with one that has a smaller footprint. It doesn't fit well in my sump and it drives me crazy when have to clean it.
 
It may not hurt to look at carbon as a possible source of your coral coloration and polyp extension problems. I experienced very similar issues with montis bleaching and pale sps with limited/no polyp extension and it took me 9 months to figure out what was causing it in my tank. I even lost a few coral frags over that time (slowly and painfully).

Carbon ended up being my issue. I figured it out because I keep a pretty thorough record of anything I do or add to the tank and after going back and studying that record carefully I noticed a pattern with my carbon. It was about 2 weeks after switching to ROX carbon the problems started with my Monti fading in color just a bit and then over the course of the next month it faded to white. It took about another month for all the rest of the sps to follow suit which is why I didn't immediately make the connection. In my records after things had gotten bad with all sps in the tank, their health would fluctuate between bad (pale with no polyp extension) and horrible (STN). I noticed in the records anytime I did a change to the carbon about 1.5 weeks later coral health would move from bad to horrible. I'd do a water change and things would go back to bad.

I had come across others posting about issues with ROX carbon stripping out elements from the water so I decided to give dosing HW trace tip 1 & 2 a shot not thinking that it would do much to help, but couldn't hurt. To my surprise within about a week colors started coming back a little bit and within 3 weeks polyp extension returned to normal. Before starting dosing I sent in a water sample to Triton Labs just out of curiosity and when I got the results back my trace elements were all testing at 0. After about 2.5 months of dosing, everything was vibrant and starting to actually grow again. It seems the ROX was pretty rapidly stripping elements out of the water. I still use ROX but only a tiny amount (2 tbsp). When I change it out I dose a little heavier for a few days.

I did not have any of the same algae issues as you have been experiencing so I cannot account for that variable in my situation, but I had been getting the same test results in the 0 to near 0 range with Phosphates and Nitrates using the exact same tests as you. I had thought this might be the culprit for a while and started feeding heavier and adding "coral" foods to the tank. This never ended up helping my situation, rather started to cause algae growth so I stopped with that after about 1 month.

Anyway, long post short, I thought it might be worth mentioning my experience since you mentioned in a few posts about adding a reactor with carbon to the tank and running generous amounts of it somewhere later on. I don't know what type of carbon you are using, but if it is less "potent" than the ROX it could account for your experience with faded colors but not being so bad as to cause any tissue necrosis like I experienced.

Best of luck getting things turned around!
 
It may not hurt to look at carbon as a possible source of your coral coloration and polyp extension problems. I experienced very similar issues with montis bleaching and pale sps with limited/no polyp extension and it took me 9 months to figure out what was causing it in my tank. I even lost a few coral frags over that time (slowly and painfully).

Carbon ended up being my issue. I figured it out because I keep a pretty thorough record of anything I do or add to the tank and after going back and studying that record carefully I noticed a pattern with my carbon. It was about 2 weeks after switching to ROX carbon the problems started with my Monti fading in color just a bit and then over the course of the next month it faded to white. It took about another month for all the rest of the sps to follow suit which is why I didn't immediately make the connection. In my records after things had gotten bad with all sps in the tank, their health would fluctuate between bad (pale with no polyp extension) and horrible (STN). I noticed in the records anytime I did a change to the carbon about 1.5 weeks later coral health would move from bad to horrible. I'd do a water change and things would go back to bad.

I had come across others posting about issues with ROX carbon stripping out elements from the water so I decided to give dosing HW trace tip 1 & 2 a shot not thinking that it would do much to help, but couldn't hurt. To my surprise within about a week colors started coming back a little bit and within 3 weeks polyp extension returned to normal. Before starting dosing I sent in a water sample to Triton Labs just out of curiosity and when I got the results back my trace elements were all testing at 0. After about 2.5 months of dosing, everything was vibrant and starting to actually grow again. It seems the ROX was pretty rapidly stripping elements out of the water. I still use ROX but only a tiny amount (2 tbsp). When I change it out I dose a little heavier for a few days.

I did not have any of the same algae issues as you have been experiencing so I cannot account for that variable in my situation, but I had been getting the same test results in the 0 to near 0 range with Phosphates and Nitrates using the exact same tests as you. I had thought this might be the culprit for a while and started feeding heavier and adding "coral" foods to the tank. This never ended up helping my situation, rather started to cause algae growth so I stopped with that after about 1 month.

Anyway, long post short, I thought it might be worth mentioning my experience since you mentioned in a few posts about adding a reactor with carbon to the tank and running generous amounts of it somewhere later on. I don't know what type of carbon you are using, but if it is less "potent" than the ROX it could account for your experience with faded colors but not being so bad as to cause any tissue necrosis like I experienced.

Best of luck getting things turned around!

Very good info!! Thanks for sharing. I did recently remove all carbon from the system. I've read of enough successful reefers who only run carbon for a few days a month that I figured I'd give it a shot. The water is pretty clear, so I don't feel bad taking it out for a while. I use Seachem's carbon fwiw. I don't think it's as aggressive as ROX, but I was using a significant amount. Much more than 2 tbsp.
 
I would tend to agree on the carbon but I find Seachem's Matrix to not be anywhere close to as aggressive as ROX. I would just scale back the amount you are using down to the recommended amount (or even below) for your tank size and see if your corals perk up. As for your mind trick monti closing its polyps I would not be concerned if its tissue is still a bright sea foam green. Shine a flashlight in your tank after you turn off your lights for the night, mine is always is closed during the day and opens up as soon as my lights turn off. Also its growing like a damn weed good thing it is such a beautiful coral!!!!


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It seems when I started feeding coral smoothie to my reef tank dinoflagelates came..on 2 different occasions...I Blame the coral smoothie..

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I would tend to agree on the carbon but I find Seachem's Matrix to not be anywhere close to as aggressive as ROX. I would just scale back the amount you are using down to the recommended amount (or even below) for your tank size and see if your corals perk up. As for your mind trick monti closing its polyps I would not be concerned if its tissue is still a bright sea foam green. Shine a flashlight in your tank after you turn off your lights for the night, mine is always is closed during the day and opens up as soon as my lights turn off. Also its growing like a damn weed good thing it is such a beautiful coral!!!!


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My Jedi Mind Trick is not seafoam green at all. It has a light blue rim, but the center is pale white/greenish. I've been feeding more now that the cyano hasn't come back and the green is getting darker, but slowly.
 
It seems when I started feeding coral smoothie to my reef tank dinoflagelates came..on 2 different occasions...I Blame the coral smoothie..

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I'm not using coral smoothie much at all. I fed some yesterday in a broadcast feeding, but that was the first time in a few weeks.
 
Okay, since the last update I've seen some good improvements in color and some weirdness with slimy bacteria. As of 9/23 I added Seachem Matrix media to improve my beneficial bacteria count. I seeded the ceramic media with Prodibio bacteria, and a week later added another vial to the sump. I've also been feeding heavier now that cyano doesn't appear to be a problem anymore.

I also replaced my Reef Octopus skimmer with a Bubble King and I'm already seeing dry, foamy skimmate compared to barely any skimmate from the Reef Octopus. I'm pretty sure the water level had a lot to do with the Reef Octopus performing so poorly, but now that I've upgraded to a nicer brand I don't plan on going back.

With all that said, I'm seeing better color, only a light dusting of brown algae on the sand daily (it goes away over night), and newest of all: slimy bacteria. I noticed yesterday that my filter sock was absolutely covered in a slimy, clear bacteria. I replaced the sock and replaced the filter floss in my sump last night, and this morning the filter floss was completely clogged with this clear/white film. I grabbed some photos of the filter sock and the clumpy bacteria.

Anyone have any ideas what that bacteria might be from? The only thing I can think of is the recent addition of Prodibio combined with heavier feeding. Here are a couple quick photos: http://imgur.com/a/wKBY4

I've had slimy bacteria outbreaks like this before, but it was when I was using NOPOX on my previous tank. I could not do carbon dosing without getting humongous amounts of this slime that would clog every pump in the system. Any insight would be great, thanks!!
 
I'd guess the Prodibio is part of the problem. That gel sounds like a typical bacterial mat that can be caused by carbon dosing, or even overfeeding. I might cut back on the feeding or dosing for a bit. It'll be interesting to see how the Bubble King shapes up.
 
I'd guess the Prodibio is part of the problem. That gel sounds like a typical bacterial mat that can be caused by carbon dosing, or even overfeeding. I might cut back on the feeding or dosing for a bit. It'll be interesting to see how the Bubble King shapes up.


I think it's overfeeding. I ran out of Dr G's frozen food and picked up PE mysis. PO4 was up to 0.02ppm last night from 0.00ppm before the slime started. I'm on a cruise for the next four days so my tank-sitter has been instructed to feed less until I get back.

The Bubble King seems to be really solid aside from an occasional 'surging' from the pump and the bacteria slime clogging the needle wheel. With that said, it's still pulling out skimmate.
 
I believe I went through some of the same issues in the past year w/significant losses eventually. Things were going downhill mysteriously with "good" test readings. Check your test kits btw. I had a bad Mg kit. I had my LFS run tests and found it was off. I was really 800 ppm on the low side. All other tests were fine. I took the feeding angle too, but I believe all of the excess feeding causes the rocks and sand bed to turn into a nitrate/phosphate sink making things worse. You weren't seeing anything measurable in the water column, but it is in these surfaces right where your corals are residing, and all that algae, cyano, etc starts growing. I believe the carbon and GFO may be stripping too much out of your water column and furthermore not helping the corals. I used GFO and removed it, haven't seen any negative results since. It wasn't until I started carbon dosing with RS nopo-x that I saw an almost immediate improvement. I took it slowly though, w /small doses. If I saw a little cyano I backed off and gave a day or 2 break. Algae started dying and then I did a few clean ups(much easier when dead or dying). Water got really clear and I could see my rocks, gravel and glass again. Skimmer would go nuts in the beginning of dosing which is supposed to happen. Now my doses are sparse, keeping an eye on things, dosing from time to time. I am hoping to achieve balance in my system again, not taking any drastic actions. Additionally, I noticed a top film in sections of my sump. I cleaned them out thoroughly and added airstones in 2 sections to breakup surface tension. I also was dogged with lowish pH (7.8-7.9), and also suspected too much CO2 in my tight house built in '03. Never had this problem with prior tanks in older homes. I run a Ca reactor which can make this worse. I ran an old Aqua C skimmer which was rated to handle about my amount of gallons ~130 g. It wasn't suited for pulling outside air like a venturi system would. After lots of debate I upgraded to a Skimz SM203 and ran outside air to the venturi. pH now holding at 8.0-8.1 all day and night. So, here's the thing on skimmers. I significantly upsized to the 203 which Skimz rates at 528 g whereas BRS rates it at 190 g heavy load. Your Oct 150 was rated by BRS heavy load 55 g. So it might have been fine but underrated for your application. I feel like the co2 / low pH thing was an over riding source of problems in the tank. Something that was new to me, making it more confounding. I was taking all kinds of other actions that made things worse. I now feel the tank is much more oxygenated, in the proper pH range and has re-acheived the balance it once had.

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I believe I went through some of the same issues in the past year w/significant losses eventually. Things were going downhill mysteriously with "good" test readings. Check your test kits btw. I had a bad Mg kit. I had my LFS run tests and found it was off. I was really 800 ppm on the low side. All other tests were fine. I took the feeding angle too, but I believe all of the excess feeding causes the rocks and sand bed to turn into a nitrate/phosphate sink making things worse. You weren't seeing anything measurable in the water column, but it is in these surfaces right where your corals are residing, and all that algae, cyano, etc starts growing. I believe the carbon and GFO may be stripping too much out of your water column and furthermore not helping the corals. I used GFO and removed it, haven't seen any negative results since. It wasn't until I started carbon dosing with RS nopo-x that I saw an almost immediate improvement. I took it slowly though, w /small doses. If I saw a little cyano I backed off and gave a day or 2 break. Algae started dying and then I did a few clean ups(much easier when dead or dying). Water got really clear and I could see my rocks, gravel and glass again. Skimmer would go nuts in the beginning of dosing which is supposed to happen. Now my doses are sparse, keeping an eye on things, dosing from time to time. I am hoping to achieve balance in my system again, not taking any drastic actions. Additionally, I noticed a top film in sections of my sump. I cleaned them out thoroughly and added airstones in 2 sections to breakup surface tension. I also was dogged with lowish pH (7.8-7.9), and also suspected too much CO2 in my tight house built in '03. Never had this problem with prior tanks in older homes. I run a Ca reactor which can make this worse. I ran an old Aqua C skimmer which was rated to handle about my amount of gallons ~130 g. It wasn't suited for pulling outside air like a venturi system would. After lots of debate I upgraded to a Skimz SM203 and ran outside air to the venturi. pH now holding at 8.0-8.1 all day and night. So, here's the thing on skimmers. I significantly upsized to the 203 which Skimz rates at 528 g whereas BRS rates it at 190 g heavy load. Your Oct 150 was rated by BRS heavy load 55 g. So it might have been fine but underrated for your application. I feel like the co2 / low pH thing was an over riding source of problems in the tank. Something that was new to me, making it more confounding. I was taking all kinds of other actions that made things worse. I now feel the tank is much more oxygenated, in the proper pH range and has re-acheived the balance it once had.

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Thanks for the input. I definitely see improvements when pH is above 8.1 (which I can only achieve with the skimmer airline run outside). I don't want to resort to carbon dosing just yet as it caused a massive bloom of bacteria in my previous tank, and I think it will just fuel the bacteria that's currently trying to take over my filter socks at the moment. I don't plan on using the reef octopus again.
 
That's certainly a reasonable approach, and likely what I'd do. Please keep us posted on the skimmer!


Well I got suspicious and pulled the skimmer pump out into a small tank to see if I could figure out why it was surging. I think the pump is damaged as it still seems to be surging after a good cleaning and the pump appears to be wobbling when not connected to the skimmer body. A new Red Dragon 600 is almost twice as much as I paid for the entire skimmer... :headwally: It wasn't doing this when I first got it. I think I bumped it against the side of the sump a little too hard when installing it. This sucks.
 
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