88 watt Leds

I was going to DIY the LED lighting myself, but I found this guy selling these lights. I really can not find something that I would want change from his design.

Looks like a solid build. If I went and try to buy all these parts myself, I still think I would of not save much and had the chance of having bad parts.
Also with him, I have a good warranty and someone that will stand behind me, if LEDs do indeed have a manufacture defect.

These light fixtures are very easy to modify, the ones i am getting will have room for 12 more LED Stars if I deem necessary. I can continue to upgrade these fixtures with newer, better LEDs as they being introduce into the market. Power Supplies are not part of the fixtures and you can find a different type if you deem necessary.
Very easy to repair unlike other LEDs systems on the market now.

I am going to use my Aqua-controller to control these and also install a NEPTUNE SYSTEMS LUNAR SIMULATOR with 5 LED.
I would like more information about the LUNAR SIMULATOR, but I want that topic on it own thread.
 
Would any currently avaiable controller, i.e proflux or reefkeeper be able to control these led's. For example sunrise/sunset, set intensity through out the day, color tempature, storms, etc... If not what would be required to make the Led unit do this...
 
One board controls 4 LED STAR cluster, but individually. If one LED Star goes poof, the other 3 still run and stay safe.

Their can be up to 3 boards per unit depending on the unit you want. For example, the 144 watt has 3 and the 88 watt only has 2 boards.

Depending how you want to control the boards, is how many Power Supplies you will get. If you want to control the white LEDS and the blues separately, you will get 2 small PS.

If you just want to control everything together, you will get 1 large PS. The cool things about these lights, you can configure them anyway you want.

Now the dimming part, the boards he offers can not dim these LEDS, you must get a different type of board. That something you need to ask Mike. I believe you can DIY that part or buy one already done, but i am not sure.

Yes you can control these lights using the control to turn them on and off. You can use timers to run the white light for so long and the blue for longer times, if you want to do so.
Thats how I am going to run my lights with Aqua-Controller III.
 
Seems like a lot of money for so little functionality..... It looks like he is just using Voltage Regulators configured as a current limiter.. Unfortunately a very inefficient design and there is no way to dim them. How is the "controller" going to control the light? Why are you pushing so hard on the promotion of this light?
 
Optics are crucial.

I don't know why we don't see usage of the Cree MC-E leds. You could replace his 36 rebel LED array with just 6 Cree MC-E's, which only cost $25/per led. They have higher efficiency as well, along with a wide range of optics available to suit your needs.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14289955#post14289955 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by lynxvs
Seems like a lot of money for so little functionality..... It looks like he is just using Voltage Regulators configured as a current limiter.. Unfortunately a very inefficient design and there is no way to dim them. How is the "controller" going to control the light? Why are you pushing so hard on the promotion of this light?

Your using the word inefficient in a very misleading way.

Inefficient a:not producing the effect intended or desired b: wasteful of time or energy <inefficient operating procedures> c: incapable.

His design does exactly what it suppose to do and does it well. I can show you $4000 LED Systems that takes the whole bank of LEDs because one went bad and that for me is a inefficient design.

From what I understand, Dimming is just eye candy, is not inefficient design, its a feature, huge difference in terminology.
I don't see people dimming MH or the T5?

I be controlling when they turn on and off. I will have the blue lights on for about 10 hours and the white for 8 hours, well something like that.

I am really not trying to promote anything, but I am pushing hard to figure out what LEDs system is out there that i can buy.
I am all ears if you can find something better for this price, but please do not give 1 part number and say here you go.

I need more complete system, that will work and that is well thought out.
So far, only complains is the optics, and the lack of dimming control.
I be placing these LEDs very close to the surface, so optics will not be a concern.
I can get the eye candy dimming later by DIY or buying something that would work.

Like I said, please show me something better for the price and design.
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14290247#post14290247 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by liveforphysics
Optics are crucial.

I don't know why we don't see usage of the Cree MC-E leds. You could replace his 36 rebel LED array with just 6 Cree MC-E's, which only cost $25/per led. They have higher efficiency as well, along with a wide range of optics available to suit your needs.

Specs for those LEDs?
Does the manufacture guarantees uniformly with those LEDs?
What about warranty issues? Will they replace them, Last year tons of high Power LEDs had manufacture high failure rates.

Designing in electronics is not just about slapping parts and putting things together. Look at the $4000 LEDs systems, not doing so well.
A lot of layers to be considered.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14290247#post14290247 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by liveforphysics
Optics are crucial.

I don't know why we don't see usage of the Cree MC-E leds. You could replace his 36 rebel LED array with just 6 Cree MC-E's, which only cost $25/per led. They have higher efficiency as well, along with a wide range of optics available to suit your needs.

liveforphysics
Replacing 36 Rebel array with 6 Cree MC-E's will not quite give you the same result... The Cree MC-E is four dies in one package that is rated at 370 -430 lumens depending on bin. So if you have 6 Cree that equals 6 * 430 = 2580. If you have 36 Rebels 36 * 100 = 3600. Cool white Rebels are about $4.00 per LED so the price is just a little lower. The only problem I have with the Cree LEDs is the moisture sensitiviy. The LEDs must be baked before they are reflowed on the board. The Rebels are moisture insensitive. Other then that I don't care what LED I would use.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14290812#post14290812 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by luisagos
Your using the word inefficient in a very misleading way.

Inefficient a:not producing the effect intended or desired b: wasteful of time or energy <inefficient operating procedures> c: incapable.

His design does exactly what it suppose to do and does it well. I can show you $4000 LED Systems that takes the whole bank of LEDs because one went bad and that for me is a inefficient design.

From what I understand, Dimming is just eye candy, is not inefficient design, its a feature, huge difference in terminology.
I don't see people dimming MH or the T5?

I be controlling when they turn on and off. I will have the blue lights on for about 10 hours and the white for 8 hours, well something like that.

I am really not trying to promote anything, but I am pushing hard to figure out what LEDs system is out there that i can buy.
I am all ears if you can find something better for this price, but please do not give 1 part number and say here you go.

I need more complete system, that will work and that is well thought out.
So far, only complains is the optics, and the lack of dimming control.
I be placing these LEDs very close to the surface, so optics will not be a concern.
I can get the eye candy dimming later by DIY or buying something that would work.

Like I said, please show me something better for the price and design.


Still sounds like you have more then just an interest in the product more like a business partner. Anyway when I said it was an inefficient design I was referring to the LED drive circuit. When you use a Voltage Regulator lots of power is wasted in the conversion process in the form of heat. That is why if you look at the design the regulators are fastened to the heatsink. Most designs use a DC to DC converter because of that reason. As far as the design from what I can see you just have LED's, LED driver, heatsink, power supply and fans..... Pretty standard stuff that most people with a little experience can put together. Looks like the only part that was "designed" was the driver board.. While were on the subject of design what is with the fans on top of the heatsink? Normally you would want the fans to be inline with the heatsink fins so air is drawn through them. Your right in that there is nothing out there that that is affordable in LED lighting. The problem is just part cost..... nobody can build one affordable until this comes down. The light I built cost a little over $500.00 in parts for a 24" light.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14291912#post14291912 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by lynxvs
Still sounds like you have more then just an interest in the product more like a business partner. Anyway when I said it was an inefficient design I was referring to the LED drive circuit. When you use a Voltage Regulator lots of power is wasted in the conversion process in the form of heat. That is why if you look at the design the regulators are fastened to the heatsink. Most designs use a DC to DC converter because of that reason. As far as the design from what I can see you just have LED's, LED driver, heatsink, power supply and fans..... Pretty standard stuff that most people with a little experience can put together. Looks like the only part that was "designed" was the driver board.. While were on the subject of design what is with the fans on top of the heatsink? Normally you would want the fans to be inline with the heatsink fins so air is drawn through them. Your right in that there is nothing out there that that is affordable in LED lighting. The problem is just part cost..... nobody can build one affordable until this comes down. The light I built cost a little over $500.00 in parts for a 24" light.

Have you ever taken debating class? You pick one side and stand by it then you switch over.

In my case, I am looking for LED System that will work at decent price. I found Mike design and started to pick it part apart. But my knowledge goes so far.
I am electronics technician by trade, strong points are in digital controls, semiconductors are my weak points for designing stuff.

I have always worked side by side with Electrical engineers, i built their prototypes and they blame me because I built it wrong and I blame them for designing something that blows up too easy, lol.
Keep in mind i had to repair these prototypes when they blew up, I will always have in back of my mind is this design right. Would spend over 80h in wire-wrapping and laying out components.
BTW, my track record was 100%, they hated that,because if i tested that board and it smoked, it a meant it was their fault, lol.

I was hired at one place because they gave me a digital PCI control board with schematics and told me to fix it. After 10 min, i told them the schematics are wrong. They gave me a REV D instead of a REV I, lol.

I just trying to tear this design apart, and you guys are doing a good job trying to. I will be spending over $1500 and I just want to make sure I don't waste it.
You and all that have posted here, has helped me in deciding. Teaching me on what to look for and what not.
BTW DC to DC converters do get very hot also. It just a convenient housing so the engineers do not need to worry about heat sink.
Take one a part and you be surprise whats in them. ;)
Not sure what you mean about the fans.
These LED casing is the heat sink itself. The whole housing is one big heat sink, hence why I like it so much. All of the electronics are sealed, no need to blow air through them. Fans are just keep the casing (heat sink) cool. To keep it within so many degrees in-line with the room temps.
Like the computer CPU heat sink fans that they blow from the top.

The boards are simple and parts are cheap to fix the whole board only cost $20. Anyone wanting to go with dimming controls, these are the boards you are going to need to replace.

I guess my debating skills is confusing people here, so i make this statement.

I do not work for this guy, I have never talked with this guy till after I have started this thread.
Search my threads you see i have been searching for lights for my new setup for awhile now. I even try to setup a group buy for a different type LED system, just ask Anemone, RC MOD.
I was told no global group buys are not allowed on RC.
Was going to start a thread about them, but after doing some research they just was eye candy lights.
I feel good about these lights and I believe to be the best LEDs system to get in now, with features that will allowed you DIY for the future upgrades.
 
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DC to to DC converters will get hot but they are still more efficient then a voltage Regulator.. I don't think it's "so the engineers do not need to worry about heat sink." it's more involved then that, I do know what’s in them. What I meant about the fans and heatsink is normally if you have vertical fins on the heatsink you would want the air to flow through these fins so you would place the fan air flow perpendicular to the fins.... CPUs use a different type of heatsink that allows the fan to be placed on top....
 
DC converter is just a neater package, with the semiconductor all built in. Heat is always byproduct of inefficacy.
And they do get hot.
The pros, less engineering needed, one simple smaller package.
The cons, cost a lot more and the whole unit needs to be replace when it goes bad and they do go bad.
Depends on the engineer, if the design is good, it will be as efficient as the black box model and at the same time keep the cost down.
But keeping things in one package is always better, but you lose the flexibility at the same time. It will depend on the application, do we have room, can we remove the heat from the regulators without heating the components near by.
Actually Converter will generate heat inside the LED areas and not would be allowed to escape, unlike the regulator that can pass the heat to the heat sink, and have more uniform heat pattern then having hot spots inside your electronics.
Its always depends on the application.

This is why computers are so fast today, we can pack a lot into a small dye.

Fans are there for redundancy, but I do agree with you on the air flow.
None of those issues will effect the LED growing coral or the longevity of them, but you did make valid points.
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14279485#post14279485 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by lynxvs
Yes, higher lumen ratings will help, but you basically double the intensity with optics why wouldn't you do it? Is it because you cannot find the right lens?
Two reasons, first we designed the lights to be placed on top of the tank cover glass or on a slider placed over the tank, mainly to help persons with hoods/canopies over their tanks.
Being that the lights are only two inches off the water (and given Snellââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s law) all the light enters the tank, on my personal tank (24 inches front to back) my lights are placed to hit the back glass two inches down the glass, this causes the light to hit the front glass 12 inches down. My rock, like most tanks I see is stacked to go up the back wall. If I place a 25 degree light fixture over the tank, only the rock directly under the light gets light and the front and back glass are not touched at all. Much more collimated light? Yes. Much more intense light? Yes (my clam sits on the bottom, 12 inches across, over ten years old and lives off of light, closed up to half his normal size because the light was too much). But what was gained by the narrow beam?
Now as stated before we can place a 25 degree lens on the light fixture. I had one person that has a shallow tank and does most of his viewing from the top of the tank; we used 25 degree lenses so he could mount the lights 16 inches over the water making viewing from above without light obstructing the view easy. One customer out of Canada has a 48 x 48 x 48 tank. His back rows of lights are normal units no lens (rock shelves are at depths of 0 to 24 inches) and his front row of lights are 25 degree lens lights (rock shelves 24 inches to substrate). Best of both worlds wide beam for the top rocks, narrow high intensity beams for the deep rock.
The thing to remember here is, do not get caught up on the intensity at the bottom of your tank and end up burning the stuff at the top. If you want a light that does both then we leave the back row of a light normal and the front row with 25 degree lens, you get the wide light for the back of your tank and the narrow for the front of your tank.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14280644#post14280644 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by lynxvs
sonnus
I would like to see a photo of the light positioned over the tank.....I don't see it in the photo.

the units are placed directly over the top glass hince the reason that both side of the light are throwing out 45 degree beams. next time I am in the store I will take a photo and post it.

To All: thank you very much for this conversation, and for keeping it civil, it is great to get a chance to see others input and different designs that persons are doing.

thanks again,

Mike
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14289071#post14289071 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Haxer
Would any currently avaiable controller, i.e proflux or reefkeeper be able to control these led's. For example sunrise/sunset, set intensity through out the day, color tempature, storms, etc... If not what would be required to make the Led unit do this...

this is what one client has done,

The lights are coming along nicely. All three units are working, I have added the thermostats. Then I made a few modifications to the S-240-12 power supplies to integrate them nicely with my GHL controller. The controller offers a few 0-10V channels, each of them also has a separate on/off signal.

For the on/off function I added a normally closed relay parallel to the opto-coupler triac HPC3022 in the S-240. That triac is a part of the overtemperature and overvoltage protection circuit, so it also works well for remotely controlling the on/off state. (I could have used another triac instead of the relay but I had a relay that I could reuse anyway).

For the dimming function I added an optocoupler 4N37 to the voltage adjustment circuit, so now I can control it from 9 to 12V from the 0-10V signal.

The best part of my GHL controller is that I can program the control voltage that relates to desired 0% and 100% light output. I measured the LED current and discovered that the current limiting to 0.88 kicks in at 11.2V for the blue channel, and at 10.9V for the white channel. So I was able to adjust that programmatically, having a nice linear light output range. Anyway, that was a nice touch.

I also use the Zalman MCF 2 controller for the LED cooling fans. (http://www.zalman.co.kr/ENG/product/Product_Read.asp?idx=209) It has temp sensors, fan speed adjustment, broken fan alert and power consumption meter. Nice toy, the only missing feature is the automatic fan speed control. It is not that critical for my application, I manage to keep the LED at 37Ã"šÃ‚ºC with the fans running quietly at 1100rpm. The controller and the fans are powered only when either blue or white channels are on. The max power consumption hovers around 420W when all three blocks are full on.

Anyway, I am ready to watch the quiet sunrises and sunsets and cloud effects when the aquarium arrivesââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦

I will send you some pictures soon.

Boris
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14291800#post14291800 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by lynxvs
liveforphysics
Replacing 36 Rebel array with 6 Cree MC-E's will not quite give you the same result... The Cree MC-E is four dies in one package that is rated at 370 -430 lumens depending on bin. So if you have 6 Cree that equals 6 * 430 = 2580. If you have 36 Rebels 36 * 100 = 3600. Cool white Rebels are about $4.00 per LED so the price is just a little lower. The only problem I have with the Cree LEDs is the moisture sensitiviy. The LEDs must be baked before they are reflowed on the board. The Rebels are moisture insensitive. Other then that I don't care what LED I would use.

could not have stated it better, with just one small change. we are using bin 7007-PWC-10 on a three up that is 180 lumen each rebel which is 36 x 180 = 6480. the rated output of the star is 540 lumens at .7 amps we run them a little higher at .88 amps so if you look at it per star they are 12 x 540 = 6480 remember this is if all the stars are cool whites so we can do an apple to apple comparison to the Cree MC-E

http://www.luxeonstar.com/7007pwc103-rebel-star-white-triled-540-lumens-700ma-p-183.php

thanks again for the great input please keep it coming.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14292720#post14292720 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by lynxvs
What I meant about the fans and heatsink is normally if you have vertical fins on the heatsink you would want the air to flow through these fins so you would place the fan air flow perpendicular to the fins.... CPUs use a different type of heatsink that allows the fan to be placed on top....

Lynxvs,
you would be surprised at how much time was burned up in the heat sink part of the design. you would think that something as simple as the heat sink would not take up more then half of the total design time but heat management really is the key to making the led last longer then five years, it is very simple to just bolt a led to an aluminum plate and run air over it. will the led light and work? yes. but will it last? no.
we started with an air flow that was in from one side and out the other (perpendicular to the fins) the problem was you heat the air up as it goes down the length of the heatsink being a long length to width ration the air goes laminar and the resulting skin affect along the heat sink caused temperature gradients, so the last star was seeing a heat that was up to 20 degrees over ambient.

so next was two fans, one in from each side with an exhaust hole in the middle of the cover plate. this helped a lot but because of manufacture variations in the fans one would over power the other and keeping things even across the unit was difficult.

hence the next Idea, blow it in from the top and out the sides, the air in the middle is turbulent, and goes to laminar as it moves out the end caps. this work very well, keeping the heatsink within 5 degrees across the unit. all leds are getting the same heat dissipation.

the next thought was turn the fans around and let them draw air in from the sides just like a fan placed perpendicular to the side would do and blow out the top. this works best the hole top of the hood becomes negative pressure pulling the air in along the fins across the heat sink and up and out of the top. if one fan is weaker then the other it is still not a problem since they are not working against each other but add to each other. the air flow stays perpendicular to the fins and since it is drawing out within the first six inches is does not get a chance to heat up like it did when we ran the full length of the heat sink.

as a side note, in a hood you can cut a hole above the fan and allow it to vent straight up this allows air to be drawn into the hood and then up out of the hood keeping the heat out of your hood and keeping your tank cool in the summer months. if your hood is between six and eight inches tall you can drill an 80 mm hole in the hood and mount the units directly to the hood. venting all the heat up and out of your hood and away from the tank.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14323754#post14323754 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by smgsllc
this is what one client has done,

The lights are coming along nicely. All three units are working, I have added the thermostats. Then I made a few modifications to the S-240-12 power supplies to integrate them nicely with my GHL controller. The controller offers a few 0-10V channels, each of them also has a separate on/off signal.

For the on/off function I added a normally closed relay parallel to the opto-coupler triac HPC3022 in the S-240. That triac is a part of the overtemperature and overvoltage protection circuit, so it also works well for remotely controlling the on/off state. (I could have used another triac instead of the relay but I had a relay that I could reuse anyway).

For the dimming function I added an optocoupler 4N37 to the voltage adjustment circuit, so now I can control it from 9 to 12V from the 0-10V signal.

The best part of my GHL controller is that I can program the control voltage that relates to desired 0% and 100% light output. I measured the LED current and discovered that the current limiting to 0.88 kicks in at 11.2V for the blue channel, and at 10.9V for the white channel. So I was able to adjust that programmatically, having a nice linear light output range. Anyway, that was a nice touch.

I also use the Zalman MCF 2 controller for the LED cooling fans. (http://www.zalman.co.kr/ENG/product/Product_Read.asp?idx=209) It has temp sensors, fan speed adjustment, broken fan alert and power consumption meter. Nice toy, the only missing feature is the automatic fan speed control. It is not that critical for my application, I manage to keep the LED at 37Ã"šÃ‚ºC with the fans running quietly at 1100rpm. The controller and the fans are powered only when either blue or white channels are on. The max power consumption hovers around 420W when all three blocks are full on.

Anyway, I am ready to watch the quiet sunrises and sunsets and cloud effects when the aquarium arrivesââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦

I will send you some pictures soon.

Boris


From another forum, this I thought to be a good idea, any thoughts...

Now the thing to really make this cool, would be to attach LED drivers to different colors with intensity controls (~20$ for a driver). Buy one orange and red LED's to simulate sunrise, sunset. you can also have the intensity increase during the course of the day to eliminate the harsh on and off of the lights, also to control the sunrise/set effect.


The orange and red we see at sunrise doesn't penetrate the water's surface because it's parallel to the water and comes straight to our eyes. That why we see the colors. The fish, corals would only see a dim lightening to there surroundings and by the time the sun is high enough to penetrate the water's surface it would appear the normal white light with the many colors being filtered out as the depth increases.

There is no harsh on off with the Solaris. They come on very dim and slowly ramp up just like the sun rising and ramping down as a sun setting. This unit is already controllable the way you suggest. It has lots more flexability such as the number and length of cloud cover periods and degree of dimming during the cloud cover. And so much more.
 
I am going to see if i can find or DIY a dimming board that I can simulate sunrise, sunset.
Maybe 555 timer circuit that ramps the LEDs to full power over a given time, when you turn them on.
Sunset would be the opposite effect.
 
luisagos,

When you get theses lights, can you take some before and after pics as well as update us with your thoughts on the lights?

Before - With your current Set up
After - With the LED fixtures

For the layman whose head is spinning with the technological terms being tossed around in this thread, I'd like to see some pictures and get your opinion on what you think is good about these lights and what needs improvement. I know it will be hard to remain unbiased as it is usually hard to do so when you have so much money invested in them, but I'd still like to hear your thoughts after having them on your tank.

I am tired of the metal halide & T5's I have, so I have started banking some money for the Aqua Illumination 72", but that is going to cost me $3,600+. These fixtures are substantially less expensive at $1,650 for three of the 88w fixtures. Hell, I could even pick up three of the 144w setups and still come in cheaper than the AI. If they are well built and last, I'd be willing to give them a go, but then that old adage alway pops up in my mind "you get what you pay for."

Thanks,
Jay
 
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