9 new Banger additions

[reggiepe]

Hi Amber,

I didn't feel you was being judgemental. I am not sure what the size of mine will be at 12 - 15 weeks yet. These will be the first I will have had at that age. My LFS manager said he could take them at that age if they are on frozen and/or prepared foods. He may change his mind when he sees the size. I am told that once they are on frozen / prepared foods that they start growing substantially. We shall see. I am hoping to be able to let them find a home and also be at a size I feel comfortable letting them go as well.

As far as the male...yes, I know it was too soon for him to hold. That has happened twice before and I believe when he ate the eggs and fry early on was because he was hungry. I would love to get him at a minimum of 3 weeks of "fattening up" but it wasn't a reality this time. I don't want to lose him him as he is just starting to get the hang of it. Hope that answered your questions and concerns.

Ok I have a question... Everything I have read says you should raise your banggai for 6 months. I know my first batch took 6 months to get what I would call acceptable size, body not fins dime size. At 12 weeks I would of only considered letting them go to a close friend if I was sure they would be alone in the tank because they were just to small.

How big are the bodies not the finage of yours at 12 weeks?

Also I saw you say your newest batch is 2 weeks and the male is already holding. Why are you not holding him seperate longer and fattening him up? I have heard of males giving out and dieing because they dont have enough time to fatten up between holds.

Please note I am not judging just asking

 

[Ed Ricketts]

Back it up then. Show us were to find these reports.

(deep breath,...)

J40-6n2

While I do feel a strength of RC is the ready access to so many knowledgeable individuals, I understand that everyone has different experiences and approaches. Likewise, I recognize, that with your experience in raising this species, you probably already know everything I am about to type. With that said, I would direct your attention to the following published reports in peer-reviewed journals to find evidence to back it up.

Vagellii (2004) reports in wild surveys of brooding males, an average clutch size of 43 in 19 samples, with the range being 23-73. Environ Bio Fish 70: 235-245, 2004.

Further, Kolm reports clutch sizes during his studies of mating in captivity of 30-80 Animal Behaviour, 2002 63, 727-733.

Additionally, clutch size in Kolm (2001) varied between a mean of 50 to 52, though the emphasis of his study was paring alternately smaller and larger male/female couplings. Proc. R. Soc. Lond B268 2229-2234

Vagelli and Erdman (2002) stated in a review of the early ontogeny of this species that, "œthe highest number of released juveniles by one male,"¦ was 62," Environ Biol Fish 63: 1-8.

There was one guy here or over at MOFIB (not endorsing any other websites, however) that reported after many broods, his male's mouth was actually anatomically altered to the point where it wouldn't close properly, even in between clutches, and he noted (anecdotes of course) clutches of 70 babies, regularly. But sorry, I can't back that one up.

Thanks for inquiring about the primary evidence in the way you did. I actually found going back to the primary sources helpful, and in rereading these manuscripts, I always pick up a few more tidbits about this fascinating species.


So, hope this helps, and again, tiababygirl2, I say congrats, "you are among the elite!"

And now, back to our regularly scheduled thread...
Thanks for your interest :love2:

 

[Jambi40-6&2]

:inlove:You are just trying to get a date with taibabygirl2.

 

[macchicks]

Thank you . You can never tell online how you are being taken so when I am trying not to be rude I try to say so. Now if I would not of mentioned trying to be polite then I am purposefully being rude.

I would suggest if you dont have another tank to fatten him up in. That you use a net breeder. My male did fine in there for 3 weeks this first and second time. I pulled the net every 4-5 days and put him in a bowl while I cleaned the net. This batch he was in the net a week and then in his own tank. I think he did better in the net myself. But alot of changes are going on in my systems so that did add stress and slow down his recovery.

But just my opinion I will never try to raise the babies in a net again.

 

[reggiepe]

I have started to "try" to feed with Otohime a few days ago. They just look at it as it falls. One or two will do a quick chase toward a falling particle and then just stop and look at it. This is very frustrating. Do you let them go a little hungry in order for them to take the Otohime? I am dong heavy feedings of NHBS in the morning and evenings. (I am told I should be doing it more often, but this is all my work schedule allows for) I don't know how hungry I am to let them get in order for them to basically take anything. I definitely don't want to starve the little guys.

Rich

 

[Ed Ricketts]

reggiepe

I had the same experience with Oto C2, they just ignore it. But I've had luck with feeding the "dust" of the frozen foods I feed my adults. There's that fine little stuff that shows up in the water when I thaw out my homemade seafood mix in a little one ounce cup. I use a little plastic pipette to siphon off this stuff and squirt a cloud of it into the group of kids for the first meal of the day, when they are the hungriest.

I've noted that these guys are tougher than I originally gave them credit for. For example, occasionally I'll run into a NHBS disaster, leaving me without reasonable food for 24 hours, but they seem to weather the storm just fine. In fact, that's how I originally "discovered" their willingness to take the frozen stuff.

Hope this is helpful,

 

[reggiepe]

Hi Mike, Thanks for the response. The dust that you are feeding them...what age are they taking this? I know what you are describing and have tried it myself. But, I never tried it with the one's that are within their first week of life. Maybe that is the key. Need to put that on my list of things to try.

That is good to know that 24 hours without food is not a death sentence. I have run into that issue with the NHBS before as well and it was never longer than 12 - 18 hours. I did notice that when using decapsulated brine shrimp eggs that have been bubbling for about 12 hours, they will pick at those eggs and eat them. They don't go at them voraciously. But they are eating something. I had heard that there is a little more nutrition in the eggs than the newly hatched shrimp due to them not using up the nutrients in the hatching process. I have a 3rd batch of babies that the male will be releasing within a week. If he doesn't release by Sunday evening, I will strip them from him. I do this due to my work schedule. I am going to try to start them on Oto right away. I think that may be easier than starting on live food and then trying to switch to prepared a couple of weeks later.

 

[Ed Ricketts]

reggiepe

I guess any new foods I offer are offered in the morning, when they are the hungriest. Real breakthroughs are made by folks like you who get their fish eating new foods earlier and earlier. I've tried it, but I always chicken out, and throw in NHBS about a half an hour after trying the dry stuff, unsuccessfully.

The dust is simple, and they typically get it at about 10-14 days. So I raise 4 batches of NHBS (or thereabouts) for the first week or so, then mornings offer some homemade seafood mix that has like a smoke or cloud appearance when I inject em into the tank. For example, I got a batch of 25 that were born on March 25, and just got introduced to the "dust method" today. Pretty good, though I feel like water changes need to increase in frequency, because I keep these guys (temporarily) in a 10gal with a sponge filter and some macro.

Hope it helps,
Mike

 

[reggiepe]

Thanks Mike for the details of what you have tried. These bits of info go a long way in what we are doing.


Here's an update for this week (first and second batch together):

SUPPERTIME!!!

 

[Ed Ricketts]

Sweet photo! Is that an Otohime snow storm?

M

 

[nauticac4]

Thats a greaat picture Reggie!!


I have a might be a dumb question: Could you take the first groups of babies and mix them together to make more breeding pairs? I know that it would be inbreeding however how far into the generations can you go before problems become apparent. Would first generation inbreeding be ok?

I know people have done it with clowns. Im pretty sure some of these new color variations are just super inbred clowns. Just wanted some thought on it and your thread seems to be the most active as far as banggais' are concerned.

 

[reggiepe]

Sweet photo! Is that an Otohime snow storm?

M

Thanks. That would actually be a "NHBS in a jar storm" (Ocean Nutrition Instant Baby Brine Shrimp). I bought one of those jars of brine shrimp to keep on hand for the early mornings that I work. Brain is still foggy at 4:30 in the morning and I have forgotten to turn the bubbler back on a time or two and toasted the live brine.

 

[reggiepe]

Thats a greaat picture Reggie!!


I have a might be a dumb question: Could you take the first groups of babies and mix them together to make more breeding pairs? I know that it would be inbreeding however how far into the generations can you go before problems become apparent. Would first generation inbreeding be ok?

I know people have done it with clowns. Im pretty sure some of these new color variations are just super inbred clowns. Just wanted some thought on it and your thread seems to be the most active as far as banggais' are concerned.

Thanks Nautica. I will leave that question to the more experienced breeders. I would feel that you could, but haven't investigated the repercussions.

 

[aquaph8]

Im no expert but I did ask that same ? once and the answer I got was that inbreeding doesn't seem to matter. I don't know how accurate the source was, but 3 different people agreed.

Thats a greaat picture Reggie!!


I have a might be a dumb question: Could you take the first groups of babies and mix them together to make more breeding pairs? I know that it would be inbreeding however how far into the generations can you go before problems become apparent. Would first generation inbreeding be ok?

I know people have done it with clowns. Im pretty sure some of these new color variations are just super inbred clowns. Just wanted some thought on it and your thread seems to be the most active as far as banggais' are concerned.

 

[reggiepe]

The last 24 hours didn't go so well. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I got a 28g JBJ nano to grow the little guys out. I came home from work last night to this:

and this:

Yeah, I know...bad news with a plain plywood top. It's not a permanent solution. Anyway, I tore it down and found this on the underside:

I am thoroughly ticked. Not only did I lose all of the work involved with the setup and the time to take it back to the store (Saturday). I lost one of the little guys. Was scooping them out to go back to their original tank and one of them went totally ballistic (SFS) He never came back. Heartbreaking. I even tested this for 2 days with water in it before I add saltwater, sand and livestock. No sign of a leak.

 

[swissgaurd]

Sweet photo! Is that an Otohime snow storm?

M

im also breeding bangais ,this is a good read.what is otohime

 

[reggiepe]

Insert Sarcastic remark here....I can tell you what Otohime is....it is a food that my Banggai's refuse to eat. They get it in their mouth and spit it out. End Sarcastic remark. :lmao:

Just kidding. I know it takes some work to get them weaned onto it. To my knowledge Otohime is a fish food that Nurseries are using for their fry on up through their juvenile to adult stages. Supposed to be really loaded with the goodies needed for the fry to growout. Do a search for it. It is talked about alot in threads here and also other breeding forums.

 

[reggiepe]

Went to TFP in Lancaster today. Phewww what a mad house! This is their Anniversary sale weekend. Got a replacement JBJ 28 gallon for the grow out of the Bangers. Great customer service. I had that tank for 3 weeks and they just did a swap. I thought I was going to have to mess with the warranty through the manufacturer. It's finally all set up and I am now going to bed. Now I just wait for it to cycle. Hopefully it will be a short one.

 

[d-maz]

Hey Reggiepe,

Nice job on the thread. Did your male hold them for the 21 days or did it vary?
My male is on day 25 and still no fry. I`m getting a little concerned.

Thanks, Dave

 

[reggiepe]

Thanks D. The one time I let my male hold longer than the 21 days (about a week and a half ago), I lost them all. I believe that he was still too new (and hungry too) and ate them. My 2 batches that I am growing out now have been stripped out at the 3 week mark. I have another male in my display that is approaching the 3 week mark and I am going to have to do some night time fishing this weekend to get him out and strip them from him. Good luck with getting the Bangers....and don't be fearful of stripping the babies, it seems traumatic at first but the sooner you get them out of him at that 3 week mark I feel the better. I am sure the poppa does swallow some and the longer he goes without nutrition the hungrier he gets.

Rich