Just have to add my 2cents, even tho it is somewhat off the subject, yet was brought up by hankthetank (I think). The ban on selling turtles less than 4 inches in diameter to other than educators in OK, and many other states is not the result of animal rights nuts actions, or in consideration of the turtles well being, etc. It is my understanding that the regulation is based soley on the belief that a child can not get a 4" or larger turtle in his/her mouth. Now that's hard to believe, but apparently this was a common enough practice that doctors or the government or public health officials or whoever thought could be involved in children contracting Salmonella. I heard the government is considering recinding that regulation, but the regulation will still exist on the books in many states that set their own laws. As for the fish list, I think it's great. As a hobbyist (not a rich man) I don't need to spend my money on fish that I am not equipped to keep or can't be easily kept. I sure do love my Pajama cardinals. I don't want to spend my money on hard/impossible to keep corals either.
A Few Thoughts on P.Eichler's List
- Thread starter hankthetank
- Start date
hankthetank
In Memoriam
Angelfish were first imported into the U.S. at the beginning of the 20 th century.
What does cyanide have to do with it?People were using it to catch food fish long before they were used to collect fish for the hobby.Get your fish from responsible collection points like The Red Sea,Hawaii,Vanuatu,etc.
The only reason batfish are difficult to feed is because they are not built to compete with fish that evolved to survive a reef.The last shipment of fish I brought in contained a Pinnatus,an Orbic,and 2 Teiras.All ate well because they were ordered from a responsible shipper and were set up right in the store.
Since there have been no new advances in the last 10 to 15 years we know all we will ever know and should stop trying to lrearn more?
Reductio ad absurdum is a quaint means of debate.
As to what I have done for this hobby I have been employed at LFS' on at least a part-time basis almost continuosly since 1981.I have started more people in this hobby out on the right foot than I can count.Ask any serious hobbyist in the Phila.PA area about the guy with the ponytail. I have told people the straight story about what the consequences of their actions will probably be.And I have watched more animals than even you could count go to almost certain deaths.But over the years I have seen steady progress in increasing the number of species we are able to keep successfully.I,unlike you apparently,expect this to continue.Look outside the box of our hobby and see how human knowledge grows.Who are you or who is anyone to tell a person they can't have a Moorish Idol?While you stop short of actually saying it,I am confident you would support a law which would penalize people for attempting to have them.I guess I value human happiness more highly than you.
I admitted I had received information that was untrue and posted it without independent verification.Mea culpa.
Unlike alot of people who post on this forum I am only interested in exchanging ideas.I like to keep my personal life just that, personal,at least in forums designated for that purpose.I must admit a certain discomfort reading about the trials and tribulations that we all go through.
My level of discomfort rises when someone presents an attitude which is so clearly anti-human.
With that said I also bear you no ill will.I look forward to future debates,but not on this thread.
P.S.Sk8r your views on acceptable economics are extremely distressing.All companies could make more money without competition?When and where has that ever worked?Please be specific!
What does cyanide have to do with it?People were using it to catch food fish long before they were used to collect fish for the hobby.Get your fish from responsible collection points like The Red Sea,Hawaii,Vanuatu,etc.
The only reason batfish are difficult to feed is because they are not built to compete with fish that evolved to survive a reef.The last shipment of fish I brought in contained a Pinnatus,an Orbic,and 2 Teiras.All ate well because they were ordered from a responsible shipper and were set up right in the store.
Since there have been no new advances in the last 10 to 15 years we know all we will ever know and should stop trying to lrearn more?
Reductio ad absurdum is a quaint means of debate.
As to what I have done for this hobby I have been employed at LFS' on at least a part-time basis almost continuosly since 1981.I have started more people in this hobby out on the right foot than I can count.Ask any serious hobbyist in the Phila.PA area about the guy with the ponytail. I have told people the straight story about what the consequences of their actions will probably be.And I have watched more animals than even you could count go to almost certain deaths.But over the years I have seen steady progress in increasing the number of species we are able to keep successfully.I,unlike you apparently,expect this to continue.Look outside the box of our hobby and see how human knowledge grows.Who are you or who is anyone to tell a person they can't have a Moorish Idol?While you stop short of actually saying it,I am confident you would support a law which would penalize people for attempting to have them.I guess I value human happiness more highly than you.
I admitted I had received information that was untrue and posted it without independent verification.Mea culpa.
Unlike alot of people who post on this forum I am only interested in exchanging ideas.I like to keep my personal life just that, personal,at least in forums designated for that purpose.I must admit a certain discomfort reading about the trials and tribulations that we all go through.
My level of discomfort rises when someone presents an attitude which is so clearly anti-human.
With that said I also bear you no ill will.I look forward to future debates,but not on this thread.
P.S.Sk8r your views on acceptable economics are extremely distressing.All companies could make more money without competition?When and where has that ever worked?Please be specific!
Grins
New member
I'm a SW newbie but I appreciate lists like Peter's. A responsible newbie will seek out lists like this as a guide. As we gather more information we'll make more decisions on where we make changes to how a majority may do things.
If we're the sort that will take a list of fish not for the newbie and use it as a guide when we're more experienced perhaps we're not meant to make the advances in fishkeeping and it should be left to others who are willing to educate themselves, think critically, and deal with the risks.
If we're the sort that will take a list of fish not for the newbie and use it as a guide when we're more experienced perhaps we're not meant to make the advances in fishkeeping and it should be left to others who are willing to educate themselves, think critically, and deal with the risks.
Icefire
Seasoned reefer
:lol:
Sorry but thread like that make me :lol:
hankthetank has a point as I think some fish on that list should be removed. in ex. Cardinal fish.
but a guide for newbie is good but who gonna trust that list? the same kind of people that let a LFS owner sell them a tank in a 29g.
You can't expect most LFS giving that list, let be realist.
the 1000/1001 analogy is funny, where do you draw a lines? why not stop collecting and just keep tank breed clownfish? Fish die in the ocean anyway.
my 2am .02
Sorry but thread like that make me :lol:
hankthetank has a point as I think some fish on that list should be removed. in ex. Cardinal fish.
but a guide for newbie is good but who gonna trust that list? the same kind of people that let a LFS owner sell them a tank in a 29g.
You can't expect most LFS giving that list, let be realist.
the 1000/1001 analogy is funny, where do you draw a lines? why not stop collecting and just keep tank breed clownfish? Fish die in the ocean anyway.
my 2am .02
Peter Eichler
New member
What's sad is you see my views as anti-human rather than pro-fish... I don't appreciate you twisting around the things I say, nor you making assumptions on my feelings regarding collection laws. I aboslutely don't want to see laws, I want to see collectors and hobbyists be responsible with the available resources. I want people to be aware that the chances of a Moorish Idol surviving longterm in an aquarium are very slim, if someone is aware of that and they still want a Moorish Idol I'm not going to stop them. However, to imply that human happiness would be negatively effected if an aquarist couldn't purchase a Moorish Idol IS absurd. I could disect all of your arguments, point out the various fallacies of logic you made, and we would get nowhere so I'll stop here.
For the observers in this thread, read the two arguments and pick sides if you wish. However, let me make a few things clear. The list was made to increase awareness of difficult species in order to save some fish/inverts and hopefully in turn increase the enjoyment of hobbyists by helping them avoid trouble species. I don't think anyone here will disagree with me when I say having fish and corals die is not fun. It's also very frustrating when a LFS sells you something they claim to be hardy only to find out later that it's anything but. So, why not stick to the many hundreds of species we know we have a greater chance of maintaining in our systems longterm? In turn, why not have a list of those possible problem species to increase awareness and help people pick hardier critters for their reef tanks?
There is no hidden agenda and I'm not trying to thrust my beliefs on anyone. The list is what it is!
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Peter Eichler
New member
Don't you mean the anti-human forum? :lol:
Sorry, I couldn't help myself... Yeah I agree, it seems like the best fit there.
Kahuna Tuna
Active member
I have seen Peter's list many times over the years and I still feel that it is one of the most well written and informative pieces that any aquarist, especially the newbie, should read and become familiar with. I dont believe that this list or any of the information contained within could possibly be construed as anything but an attempt to keep people from making poor livestock choices. To insinuate that this list is somehow counterproductive to our hobby is a stretch at best.
I couldn't agree more. Well stated Peter.
I couldn't agree more. Well stated Peter.
dwd5813
New member
My first statement here is potentially the most important i will make in this entire post, and that is, I am someone who has several years of experience maintaining an african cichlid tank, and save for some glass cleaning, and preparation of food for and feeding lemon sharks, sand tiger sharks, cownose rays, and some other sw fish during a short time as a volunteer at a not so local public aquarium, I have no real experience dealing with saltwater fish. that said, take my opinions however you wish, but realize they are my own, and i am not going to tell ANYONE what to do or how to do it, cause i just dont have that right.
okay, disclaimer provided.
i feel like there are good points being made on both sides of this debate. i believe that peter's intention is to provide those new to this hobby some valuable information that they may not find elsewhere, or that they may be able to match up with similar accounts in an effort to sift through all of those that they have seen, and make up their own mind. i think that people who are in situations such as mine(read:newbies)owe it to themselves and to the creatures they intend to keep to research as much as possible and learn the requirements of each creature so that they may be successful. lists such as peter's are, in my opinion, extremely valuable for new folks. does this mean that i read one such list and immediately cross off each animal on it? no. no it does not. what this list provides to me is an idea, and a place to start. i think that reading lists like this, or seeing posts elsewhere about such things as mandarins and the necessity for established tanks and healthy populations of copepods, leads people to think and research before jumping in and buying a fish because it looks cool. i for one would be very upset with myself if i went out and bought a fish and then found out that it wasnt going to eat anything i had to feed it, or could get to feed it. i have been researching reef tanks for the past couple of years, and i will continue to do so for the rest of my life. will a list like either one of peter's ever dictate to me what i can or can not keep? the answer is a resounding no. HOWEVER, lists such as these inspire me to find out more about the creatures that populate them and learn for myself whether or not i would be able to provide the right conditions, or if i want to for that matter . i say good job, peter, and thank you for your efforts!
i think hankthetank makes a good point by saying that people need to experiment with the as yet impossible in order to make advancements. i dont think, however, that this idea is liscense for people to go out and get whatever they want, and figure it out as they go.
as i said in the beginning, im a newbie, so dismiss me at will, but thats what i was thinkin while reading this thread.
have a good day!
okay, disclaimer provided.
i feel like there are good points being made on both sides of this debate. i believe that peter's intention is to provide those new to this hobby some valuable information that they may not find elsewhere, or that they may be able to match up with similar accounts in an effort to sift through all of those that they have seen, and make up their own mind. i think that people who are in situations such as mine(read:newbies)owe it to themselves and to the creatures they intend to keep to research as much as possible and learn the requirements of each creature so that they may be successful. lists such as peter's are, in my opinion, extremely valuable for new folks. does this mean that i read one such list and immediately cross off each animal on it? no. no it does not. what this list provides to me is an idea, and a place to start. i think that reading lists like this, or seeing posts elsewhere about such things as mandarins and the necessity for established tanks and healthy populations of copepods, leads people to think and research before jumping in and buying a fish because it looks cool. i for one would be very upset with myself if i went out and bought a fish and then found out that it wasnt going to eat anything i had to feed it, or could get to feed it. i have been researching reef tanks for the past couple of years, and i will continue to do so for the rest of my life. will a list like either one of peter's ever dictate to me what i can or can not keep? the answer is a resounding no. HOWEVER, lists such as these inspire me to find out more about the creatures that populate them and learn for myself whether or not i would be able to provide the right conditions, or if i want to for that matter
. i say good job, peter, and thank you for your efforts!i think hankthetank makes a good point by saying that people need to experiment with the as yet impossible in order to make advancements. i dont think, however, that this idea is liscense for people to go out and get whatever they want, and figure it out as they go.
as i said in the beginning, im a newbie, so dismiss me at will, but thats what i was thinkin while reading this thread.
have a good day!
hankthetank
In Memoriam
Peter I think you know that I could just as handily dissect your dissections.Let's cut the crap and get to the heart of this matter.We both possess inquisitive and insightful minds .We are separated by one thing.You feel that animals possess rights.I do not.My reasons for this have been previously stated and will not be repeated at this time.Have a nice day!
dwd5813 summed all this up the best, well written and thank you. you took the words right out of my mouth. i personally have never seen this list and i guarantee many others have not either but it should be put out to all the lfs's for beginers to get an idea of what they can handle.
loosecannon
New member
Hankthetank: I`m with you on this 100%. I took notes of a lot of tre comments and they wore wrong or vary misleding at best! When I tryed vary nicely to corect him he made fun of my spelling. A vary sad guy with a vary big ego. I fell so sorry for guys like that. some guys give info to nebies, like its the law. when in fact its misleding at best! Hay Barbar, thank you for saying what needed to be said. peter the advances in our hobby over the last 10 to 15 years have been veary litte? The hobby has gronewild! This hobby has gone farther in the last 10 years than in the previst 30! we`ve reached the point where they will be very small advancements ? Advancements are being made all the time . The big breakthroughs in this hobby have already been made? That`s what the guy who made the wheel sad! We`re still using the same basic forumlas, we used many years a go? Like under gravel filters! Any body out thar stilluse one of those? Fellacious analogy it sounds right to me! The reality is many of these species on your lest have about as good of a chance as any under the right cundishons. I also was one of the first if not the first to incorpoate highly nutritional dried seaweed into fish, I call it nori I sell it at the super market! I most admit I`m a little offended at the fact you don`t like to be corakted when your wrong. I like debateing with you to peter and I certainly wish you no ill will ether. P.S.I hope my spelling was better this time. good point Icefire.
wayne in norway
New member
The pont about batfish is the enormous adult sizes that so few people have the tanks to adequately home, especially as they are not very suitable for reef setups. So you can experiment till you go blue in the face, and you get 100% of imported juvies eating perfectly, you still haven't resolved the issue that it's simply an impractical fish for the vast majority of marine aquarists, and the very vast majority are utterly doomed the moment they're caught.
I'm fully aware that all fish die eventually - there is a difference between fish that are difficult to feed (where advance is possible, practical) and where gross practicality makes the import almost immoral ('batfish in stock with free 250 gallon tank')
I'm fully aware that all fish die eventually - there is a difference between fish that are difficult to feed (where advance is possible, practical) and where gross practicality makes the import almost immoral ('batfish in stock with free 250 gallon tank')
hankthetank
In Memoriam
I agree Wayne and when I sell a Batfish the buyer is informed of 4 facts.#1 that the fish has the genetic potential to be the size of a trash can lid.#2 that fish do not grow to the size of the tank but to their genetic potential as modified by diet and water conditions.#3 that if a fish is not growing it is dying!The max size of fish is indeterminate within the frame of reference laid out by the first two facts.Healthy fish never stop growing until they die.#4 that when the fish is big nobody will want it including me.After all that is said the customer is free to do as they see fit.Do a lot of people buy the fish anyway?Yes.As far as morality goes that is something which by definition we must each choose for ourselves.The problem as I see it lies with people feeling entitled to impose their morality on others,by whatever means.
hankthetank
In Memoriam
Loosecannon where is Port Kent?Uh your spelling is pretty bad but your thoughts are clear and well organized.It's apparent that you possess the same intellectual optimism as I.Feels great doesn't it!
Hank
but your thoughts are clear and well organized.It's apparent that you possess the same intellectual optimism as I.Feels great doesn't it!Hank
hankthetank
In Memoriam
A really twisted thought just popped into my head.If all the folks who support lists of this type want to make a real difference in minimizing the waste of life inherent in our hobby.consider this idea.Rally for laws requiring air cargo companies to give priority to living cargo.The creature most ethically captured,most highly suitable for captive life in both its husbandry and its ethical standpoints doesn't stand a chance if it gets bumped repeatedly or mistaken for a basketball by an uncaring ramp worker.The losses caused by these reasons are preventable if we can just get the airlines to do what's right!This would make a difference both now and in that glistening future where only suitable species are kept.It's twisted because even though such a law would undoubtably benefit my bottom line by minimizing losses which I must eat(even considering the inevitable increase in air freight rates)I look forward to fighting it tooth and nail.But that's just me.
King-Kong
New member
So Hank, where do you draw the line when it comes to a list informing users of difficulty in fish? Should no resource exist? Should consumers not know of potential difficulties in keeping certain species?
How far would you accept going in informing the general aquarium public (not those attempting research, or expert keepers) on the difficulties of keeping certain species.
How far would you accept going in informing the general aquarium public (not those attempting research, or expert keepers) on the difficulties of keeping certain species.
hankthetank
In Memoriam
K-K read or reread my last post to Wayne.As the seller it is my responsibility to accurately describe the thing I am selling be it a bag of sand,a used car,or the rarest most beautiful most unkeepable fish there is.Then the choice is yours.Everything that is kept now that wasn't keepable when I started in the trade is kept because of people trying to do what everyone else knows is impossible.Most of the well respected names in this hobby started out by mistreating a carnival goldfish.But they learned.And kept learning.More than most of us here did.Shouldn't everyone have that opportunity?
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