A Game: WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15034488#post15034488 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by snorvich
These are fun SeaJayInSC. Very real world too.

Yeah they are, aren't they? I was thinking, "Hey, maybe we'd have some fun with this idea," and help us to all flex our dive brains a little, even if confined to a desk. I didn't realize how much fun it would be... :)


If you are not, already, you would make a great instructor.

Thanks, man! :)

I'm not an instructor - when I hit Divemaster, I took the "high road" and went "technical." I wanted to learn more about diving and get into more exciting, exclusive environments, which really equated to "overhead" diving... Diving that included a ceiling - something between me and the surface, be it a hard overhead like a cave or wreck, or a soft overhead like a decompression obligation. I also became fascinated with blackwater, zero vis, and rescue diving... I just found them challenging.

Opportunity presented itself, and amongst other things, I became a volunteer at Duke University's Hyperbaric Facility. This meant that my next learning was of the physiology/medical variety... Again, somewhat scientific or "technical." I learned a ton there. Then I became a volunteer at the SC Aquarium in Charleston, which once again was of the "scientific" variety.

Anyway, I never did revisit the concept of being a teacher - an "instructor," although it's crossed my mind many times. I am asked about it constantly, and it really tugs at my heart when I get questions especially from children, who's interest should plainly be nourtured. There's this one 7 year-old named Alex who writes me from time to time... The grandchild of good friends of mine. His handmade cards with drawings of sharks and "Mr. SeaJay" decorate my fridge. He's constantly asking about diving. Every once in a blue moon I'll send him a shark's tooth or fossil I've found in our local blackwater, just to keep him going.

Plainly, his parents can't afford the lessons even for Scuba Ducks. If I were an instructor, I'd make him a fish by his 9th birthday.

I also have 11 year-old twins and a 17 year-old girl that are all dying to get certified. Then there's my father...

Your words make me think about it, once again. :) Thanks. :)


Ok, how about some rescue scenarios.

Love it. :)

You are diving the blue hole in Belize (a boring dive by the way) and while at 150 feet you see a lone diver about 15 feet below you. You are at about 1800 PSI and are yourself diving solo. The diver is using his hands and is very slowly sinking. What do you do? Why? If you were buddy diving, what would you do?

Hard to believe that the blue hole would be a boring dive... But so be it!

At those depths I would immediately suspect a serious narc... And would try to communicate with him - preferrably from a distance. Any response from our solo victim?
 
The problem with being a XXXX instructor is that they make you teach ONLY the outline. I feel there is so much more that should be taught even (or maybe especially) in an open water course and feeling constrained to their outline has made me give up teaching. Certified is not necessarily qualified.

Overhead environments that are physical make me nervous. I do NOT have the training to dive them with the competence that I would like to feel on any dive. Penetrations make me even more nervous although I did a fair number in Truk. Logical overhead environment diving ie. decompression obligations, however, is something I have done a fair amount of.

But back to our scenario . . .

No response from the potential accident victim. He was definitely narced (he was using his hands and was at a 45 degree swimming angle) and I could feel a buzz as well but being used to it, I could think albeit only deliberately. So . . . what do you do?
 
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You could "feel a buzz" too? What gas were you diving?

I can understand the soloist's uneasiness of hard overhead environments. :)

...So this really happened to you, hunh? Wow... Must have been a bit scary, especially since both of you were buddyless. Good thing you were there for him. :)

What would I do? Well, if repeated attempts at contact were unsuccessful, it would be high time to stop his descent and get him to ascend a bit. I I could not get him to do that on his own, then I would do it for him from behind.

In his state, I would assume that he may not even notice that I'm there. Any MOD markings on his tank? What's his guages read?

Is the diver totally nonresponsive?
 
Good thing about tank bangers in no vis situation. Free flowing reg didn't stop. Had to adjust depth and hope that the reg would unfreeze. Didn't,... had to abort. Wasn't too worried about buddy since he was coming up the line with the same problem. :P Reattempt another day.
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Other scenario:

I assume from the depth that your already diving a technical mix or really trying to push the limits. Should have a buddy in any case for depths like that.

Hmm...depends on what your carrying. If you could drop something to him, assuming not.... if he is unresponsive. If its only 15 feet I'd probably grab him and do a controlled emergency ascent. I'd also send my safety sausage to the surface with a message on my slate notifying the boat on whats happening so they can prepare.... if I had time on way up).....I'm not a tech diver so I'm not too sure. I've pushed round 130ish, not 150.


i'll let Seajay take this one :D
 

i'll let Seajay take this one :D

Oh, crap - hope I'm "on the ball." :D

Hey, Grunt... What kind of regs are you using that they'd freeflow like that? Were they worked on by the same person? For one to freeflow is pretty crappy... For TWO to freeflow... Something's up there. :)
 
Oh free flowing is part of the diving here in Missouri. I got some scuba pro regs, would have to dig em out to check models. Not sure what my friend uses. I've been on plenty of dives that free flow...did some training in mermet springs, IL going for 120ft....i think everyone free flowed at least once that day, instructors, DM's, everyone.

Heard some talk that titanium regs were what we wanted to stop that. Not sure. I'm happy with my regs, and im more of an ocean diver anyways. I mostly dive around here to practice skills...then ocean diving/vacations are a breeeezee..... :D
 
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You're kidding...

Time to detune them a bit... Regs should never inadvertenly freeflow, even in the coldest, muddiest, nastiest environments.

Tuning - up or down - is easy. If they're freeflowing, why not back them down a bit?

Sure beats having to abort dives. :)

Heard some talk that titanium regs were what we wanted to stop that.

Negative. What you need to stop that is a small screwdriver and about a minute and a half.

Titanium regs are a marketing ploy. There is no point to making a regulator lighter in the water - you specifically don't want regs to be buoyant, 'cause then you'll have to add that much more weight to your weight belt.

Also, titanium is a really, really bad idea in high pressure O2 environments. If you're planning on diving enriched gas ("nitrox,") they're a big no-no.

...And to think that the manufacturers want you to pay MORE for titanium regs... :rolleyes:


I'm happy with my regs, and im more of an ocean diver anyways. I mostly dive around here to practice skills...then ocean diving/vacations are a breeeezee.....

Okay, so you're in the open ocean, at 75' and 800 psi... Nearing the end of your dive. You decide to ascend. Your buddy is also low on gas... Time to go.

You hit the anchor and begin your ascent, when suddenly... Bubbles everywhere. Freeflow.

So the bet is on... Think you'll be able to hit the surface before 600 psi blows out your reg? What happens when your computer suddenly tells you that you've got a STOP at 20' and 10', like we talked about before?

There's no situation where a freeflow is "okay." You kinda need that gas, you know?

Get the reg set to someone qualified to work on regs. Have them check the intermmediate pressure and make sure there's no creep. Scubapro regs should stabilize between 120 psi and 140 psi, indefinitely - the lower the better.

If there's no problem with IP creep (my Scubapros all had a terrible problem with creep), then detune the second stages. Again, a qualified reg tech will know how to do this. If he doesn't, take your business elsewhere.

Detuning takes all of a minute and a half. If you can, watch him do it so you'll know how to do it for all your buds.

...Then charge them $50 each to do it for them. :D Kidding. :)

I highly recommend Extreme Exposure in High Springs, Florida, for all reg work... Especially Scubapros and Apeks.

Innately, they're cavers - and cavers don't play around when it comes to life support equipment. :)
 
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I guess I shouldve finished the story....I usually just have to ascend a few feet to warm it up, if it does happen (not all the time, just november/december diving, or deep diving). Then go from there. My reg has an adjustable airflow and sometimes it will do that if I dont dial it in properly. My buddy had no problem after he ascended some. I blew too much air and was having a fit trying to deal with that and hauling that mooring line (what a PITA).

That time at mermet everyone had a service right there that day, didnt have the problem for any other dives. Those guys are great there. Even got some drysuit gluestuffs to fix holes in an air mattress. :P darn cat.

You didnt answer his scenario yet :P I want to hear what you'd do.
 
As to the story I was telling, yes it happened. I ended up approaching him from behind and easing him up very slowly until the nitrogen kicked out and he regained a semblance of control. He never even knew it happened. As far as pushing the limits, I have never done so intentionally. This was a "standard" live aboard dive that was supposed to be well controlled but wasn't.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15036237#post15036237 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Grunt
I guess I shouldve finished the story....I usually just have to ascend a few feet to warm it up, if it does happen (not all the time, just november/december diving, or deep diving).

Does that work? I've found with reg freezes that if they start to freeze and therefore freeflow, they only get worse as they freeflow. My only solution was to shut off the gas supplying that regulator and waiting a few minutes for the ice to melt.

I've only experienced it once, and was diving doubles and had the luxury of being able to shut off that one post. Of course, the freeze-up aborted the dive anyway.

Since then, I've had the reg fixed, and detuned so that it's no longer prone to freezing or freeflowing.

I don't know what you're considering "deep" diving, but if you're talking about something beyond NDLs, a reg freeze-up can be considered life-threatening, as it'll suck up all of your gas... Which you need, since you can't simply surface and abort the dive.


My reg has an adjustable airflow and sometimes it will do that if I dont dial it in properly.

Yeah, there ya go... If your reg has the "dial" adjustment (mine do too), then you can detune "on the fly." This dial, however, is a "fine tune" adjustment - if you can't detune enough, then unscrew the hose and there's an adjustment inside that will further adjust the regulator's cracking pressure (how hard you have to suck to get the reg to open and deliver air). Obviously, in a perfect world you wouldn't have to suck at all and breathing from the reg would be super-silky and so smooth that you wouldn't be able to tell that you were breathing from a reg... But if things are too sensitive, the reg will freeflow too easily. The idea is to find a point which is acceptable both in terms of no freeflows and ease of breathing effort.

Some of the guys I dive with don't bother to tighten their second stages on the hose any more than hand tight - that way, they can adjust in the field without a wrench.

I did that for a while, but then tightened mine with a wrench after several dives where I knew I'd gotten the adjustment right.


My buddy had no problem after he ascended some. I blew too much air and was having a fit trying to deal with that and hauling that mooring line (what a PITA).

Lol... Yeah, I'm with you on that one. Sometimes doing working dives can be a real PITA. :) Was the line heavy or just bulky?


That time at mermet everyone had a service right there that day, didnt have the problem for any other dives.

Oh, sweet... So you were able to fix it right there. Cool.


You didnt answer his scenario yet :P I want to hear what you'd do.

Which? I looked back and thought I answered... With his "narced diver" scenario, I answered that I'd attempt to get the diver's attention and get him to ascend... If the diver would not respond to me, then I'd approach him from behind and do it for him (the behind approach would be important, since he might freak out - or I might have the benefit of him not even knowing that I was there). Once ascending, his narc should go away and he'd probably "come around." From there, I'd make it a point to hang with him and go through deco with him as an extra assurance for both of us.

...Then there'd be a long talk topside about using the right gas for depth... And not diving solo, especially in overhead environments. :)

Okay, my turn:

You're on a "cattle boat" somewhere a few miles off the coast of South Florida. It's a typical beautiful day with slight swells coming from the south. You've had a great ride out and enjoyed a great conversation with some pretty cool people, all looking to enjoy a little reef dive to 40'.

On the way out you set up your gear, and you're all ready to get in the water when the boat reaches the mooring buoy. The first mate ties off, and the divemaster briefs everyone about the dive and says, "Have fun!"

Being so prepared, you sit down, throw each of your arms through your BC, spit in your mask, check everything (your buddy's too) and head for the stern of the boat, fins in hand. Once you get to the ladder/swim platform, you place your mask on your face, don your fins, check your guages (3100 psi) and breathe from your reg - all good. Next thing you know, you're splashing in.

Bubbles surround you and sunlight trickles down through beautiful water. You "okay" sign the divemaster, who helped steady you as you got into the water. Pushing your deflator button, you begin to descend a little, where you plan to wait for your buddy just below the surface, where it's a little smoother.

Suddenly, no air. You've breathed out, sucked on your reg... Nothing. Zero.

There's been no freeflow, but when you look down at your guages, they read zero. How can this be?? You're at the bottom of a breath with no air in your lungs and sinking slightly in a moving sea!

What would you do?
 
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Obviously before you splashed in, everything wasn't checked!

I would resurface and turn the air back on... It was tested and the hoses were charged on the boat during prep THEN TURNED OFF, allowing just enough air 2-3 breaths, giving you false confidence that your ar supply was turned on.

-Tim
 
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I agree with tgreene. Air is off. I heard of a DM doing this as someone was about take their giant stride, thinking he was turning the air on. If getting back to the surface was tough due to little air in the BC and no way to add more from either your tank or lungs, I'd drop my weights in a hurry.

By the way, I'm loving this thread.

Thanks SeaJayinSC
 
Damn, you guys are spot-on...

I've seen it happen. The tank was already on, and when the divemaster "helped" the diver into the water, he spun it the wrong way, assumed it wasn't already on, and turned it off by mistake.

Question for you guys: Can you reach your valve while wearing your gear?

The way to do it, if you've never tried, is to place the pinky of your right hand against your right ear. The palm should face the shoulder.

Now, reach back, place your fingers on your valve and turn it.

Don't worry if you can't do this on land - it's not important to be able to do it on land - it's important to be able to do it in the water.

If you can't do it, try tilting your head down and making the tank ride up your back (sometimes it helps to reach back and push it from the bottom) before trying to operate your valve. If it's still awkward, consider placing the tank higher up your back. The tank is only too high if it hits you in the back of the head. Just under that point - the highest point you can mount your tank without it hitting you in the back of the head - is right where you want it. That way, it's easiest to reach your valve.

Then, if you hit the water with the valve off, it's a simple fix... Without fanfare or dropping weights.

It'll also allow you to control a freeflow if you have to go to such extremes as to have to turn your valve off. This is an especially important skill in overhead diving, when you're diving doubles and have the ability to turn only half of your gas off.

New scenario: It's Saturday... And you're doing your favorite dive with a new buddy.

He's gearing up, telling you about what a great diver he is and what it was like to dive in 1970.

...Which is interesting to you, since it looks like his gear is FROM 1970.

What you're noticing is that his weight belt has something like 60 pounds on it, and there's duct tape (or the adhesive and threads that USED to be duct tape) keeping all of his quick releases from coming apart - they appear to all be cracked, brittle, or broken. The more you look, the scarier it gets - plainly, the BC he's wearing used to be a color besides "faded," and it's got more holes in it than Obama's past.

He dons a 5-gallon mask, makes sure that the rod is "up" on his tank, and puts on what appears to be a skateboarder's helmet, with a Mag-Lite apparently Silly-Puttied to the top.

He's not wearing a wetsuit - instead he prefers a pair of mechanic's overalls, which he brags about having purchased at Goodwill for $8.

What would you do?
 
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"Which? I looked back and thought I answered... With his "narced diver" scenario"

Sorry must have missed that post.

I've seen the cattle boat incident first hand....a very large gentlemen with diabetes needed help with everything. Well they threw him in the great blue without turning on his air, so he was splashing at the surface trying not to drown. I went overboard to turn on his air. He was okay after that, we also begin to keep track of him during the remaining dives.

As far as the reg, it depends on the water temp, usually we ascend to a warmer water hoping that it unfreezes. Sometimes though if it doesnt we have to abort the dive. I almost always switch over to my secondary. I cant remember though if I've turned them off though, i think ill have to find out the next time it happens and see how I react. It usually startles me pretty good.

The line is just bulky, and on the surface has a bouy. But trying not to let that sucker go, maintain sight or feel of the line(depending on vis), dealing with the reg....its pretty much a dive ender and at depth the air goes quickly :D


The New Scenario -

"his weight belt has something like 60 pounds on it"

I'd tie a line to him so when he jumps in and sinks 20ft a second i can pull him back up and tell him to rent some new gear. Hahah :D

Duct tape is awesome, what cant you use that for?

"He's not wearing a wetsuit - instead he prefers a pair of mechanic's overalls, which he brags about having purchased at Goodwill for $8."

The 20 odd something years I lived in FL i never used a wetsuit ever, just my board shorts, still do. Maybe a rash gaurd now and then. In cozumel we saw people putting on the full getup (5-7mil) to include full hoods to go in bath water temperatures, and they thought I was crazy :D

Seriously though do the DM and Captain allow it? I think the red flag would have been showing earlier and it would be corrected. I would obviously confront the man about his equipment and see if the boat had some type of other gear he could use for the dive. Just putting him into the water to check his weight would probably be an ordeal in itself with so much weight. I'd ask the last time he had his equipment serviced also.

I've seen some pretty beat up BC's in my day. To include duck tape on them. I cant tell someone what to do but offer safer alternatives and advice. I'd probably not want to do the dive being his buddy if his safety is in question. I'd sit on the boat until the situation was taken care of, most boats have extra gear on them.


Hope the guy has DAN insurance....

:D
 
This exact situation has presented itself time after time here in South Carolina.

It never occurred to me to mention about the above scenario that this is not happening on a professional charter boat - it's either our scary friend's boat or yours.

This situation happens to me more often than not. I have actually been told straight-faced by a local diver that he was Jacques Cousteau's college roommate, and of course, every other person "used to be a Navy SEAL."

...Interestingly, I happen to know TWO Navy SEALS - real ones, and they never consider themselves "used to be," even when they retire. Once a SEAL, always a SEAL.

...And interestingly, neither of them dive recreationally. From conversations with them (usually pretty interesting, as they're often "not quite right" somehow), they know a lot about covert operations and how to annihilate an enemy, but rarely know much about diving, other than what they're told to do. From what I can surmise, being a SEAL is about black ops, not diving... Even though their reputation is that they're dive specialists. Conversations with them about NDLs or decompression obligations or equipment configurations or even dive sites with recreational or historical significance usually leaves them glassed over, probably wondering whose throat to covertly slash.

...Not to say that SEALs don't know how to dive - but especially if these people really were SEALs, I don't think that being a part of the elite group would be something they'd want to volunteer - especially to make a point that they're some kind of Dive God.

Anyway, this situation happens to me often. With tanks in the back of my truck and me often in a wetsuit, partially folded over even at the grocery store, I am approached by local divers on a regular basis... Often the question is, "Where do you get your tanks filled?" When I tell them that I pump them myself, a light goes off and they now consider me their new best friend. It doesn't take long before I'm sitting on the gunnels of their boat - or they on mine - splashing into one of our local rivers, looking for fossils and historical artifacts from the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries.

When I approach this kind of diver about his gear choices, I am often scorned, regardless of how I approach the topic. You wouldn't believe the logic behind some of these guys' decisions... And it's like they all come from the same gene pool or something, 'cause they all make the same bizarre choices.

They say, "Around here, you NEED to overweight yourself by at least 50 pounds."

"Around here, we wear helmet lights."

"Around here, the current is so strong that you need a jon line, a shot line, a tether, a rake (yes, they dive with a rake), etc..."

"Around here, you need kneepads to dive." (Yes, I'm serious.)

"Around here, the only way to find anything is with a light." (By "light," they mean "cheap Wal-Mart light Play-Dohed to the top of a hockey helmet.")

"Around here, you need a BC with at least 65 pounds of lift."

(But they may, just to be able to lift their weight belt.)

Consequently, I've learned to call them "Around Here" divers.

The first time they lay eyes on my rig - backplate and 30-pound wing and a total of six pounds of lead - they look at me and ask me where I dive usually. When I tell them that I was born here and dive every day "around here" with a light that stows conveniently onto my rig, they all ask the same question: "How do you stay on the bottom?"

Well, I could if I wanted to, but generally, I don't. The fact that I'm streamlined just above the bottom and able to search for anything I want, without a cloud of silt surrounding me, makes searches very successful. I don't know who taught these people to go down, nail the bottom, and overweight themselves so hard as to need kneepads. Further, if you're not on the bottom, generally you don't need a light at all because you're not diving on your knees in a cloud of silt. Usually there's enough ambient light to work just fine, and for those cases where you need more, it's right there on the rig. Any way you cut it, a head-mounted light does nothing but blind anyway - it's like having your car's high beams on in the middle of a snowstorm. The only way to effectively use a light in low or zero vis situations is to hold it out to the side and shine it on your subject, so that you're not looking down the beam of it.

That said, most times it's unnecessary anyway.

...And if you're having a difficult time resisting the current, the problem isn't that you don't have enough weight on - the problem is that you're not streamlined and able to resist the current in the first place. Streamlining is easier without the enormous, parachute-like BC, without 60 pounds around your waist (which tends to stand you upright, where you're easily "blown away") and without fins that don't match - neither of which were very good even when they were a complete set.

...Sorry, venting. :)

Anyway, the picture I painted above is the "Around Here" diver - one who's justified a bizarre, totally illogical style of diving based on propagated and persistent myths. I see it all the time, and I've learned to deal with it. I rarely even mention anything to the future organ donor about it any more... They've been told all of this stuff before, and they tend to be very sensitive about it, and I have been told many times, "I have been diving since before you were born," and, "This is how Cousteau and I used to do it - you think you know more than my buddy Jacques?" Consistently I hear, "Around here, this is the way that you HAVE to dive - and you'll be wearing $8 mechanic's overalls, too, just as soon as you learn how to dive Around Here." I get tired of pointing out that I do this full-time for a living, and that they haven't been in the water since the dive shop closed two years ago, since they haven't been able to get their tanks filled until they met me. I probably put in more bottom time in a week than these people have in 30 years.

...But this isn't really about me, and pointing this out to them only comes across as arrogant, so I've learned to shut my mouth and just nod when he tells me what it was like to build the first Aqualung in his garage.

...So what do I do in the situation that I pointed out above? Well, if it's really bad, I'll call the dive... But I see it so often that I've come to ignore the obvious hazard that this diver poses and just go diving anyway. So far, only one of the "Around Here" divers has killed himself in the past few years, and I was the one that did the body recovery - just two months earlier he and I had had a big falling out about his gear choices, and I told him that I wasn't going to dive with him any more. He told me to get bent, that he'd been doing this "for all of these years," and I had no idea what I was talking about.

Interestingly, he was the guy whose hand came off in mine when I tried to pull his body out of the drink.

The general belief amongst "Around Here" divers is that he had a heart attack while underwater... But I don't know where that myth comes from. I was there, and I can tell you first hand that his lungs were full of water, his tank was completely empty, and his BC had been cut off partially, probably by the missing leg knife. Underneath, he was wearing 128 pounds of lead (5 mil suit that day), more than 20 of it simply stuffed down his wetsuit (he'd run out of pockets and places to put weight). His weight harness (too much weight for a belt - had to wear the "suspender style" harness) was still on him, underneath of his BC. Both the harness' and the BC's quick releases were duct taped closed, since they kept coming apart from being so loaded with weight.

Obviously, he had run out of air on the bottom, and was unable to swim up. With no air in his tank, he was also unable to inflate his BC to help with his ascent... And since his rig was duct-taped closed (waist straps tied in a knot, since the buckle was long gone), there was no way to get out of it quick enough.

"Heart attack?" I can't understand why they didn't publish what really happened. "Dumb-*** attack" was more like it.

If I mention this to any "Around Here" diver, I constently get, "You should have more respect..." because he's dead. Bull-oney! The situation needs to be told the way it really happened, 'cause I'm tired of explaining to people why their gear choices are going to kill them.

...So I've stopped. I just don't even bother any more.

...But when someone stops me in the grocery store and says, "Let's go diving," I'm really leary of the entire situation. I have my own boats now... No longer is there anything another diver brings to the dive that I need. There was a time when buddying up meant the use of a boat or compressor or gear or whatever... Now I have all of my own stuff and pretty much avoid other recreational divers.

If I want to go diving, I just do... It's that simple. If I want to take someone else diving with me, then I call them and ask them. I do not have a shortage of people that want to go diving.

...And if I find fossils or artifacts or a great place to dive or something special, I just enjoy it - there is no benefit in sharing it unless they want to pay for it and buy it from me.

I know this all sounds like I'm being a serious Scuba Snob, but I'm really tired of explaining, arguing, rescuing, and helping, rather than diving. Consistently, too, I'm tired of then cleaning the boat by myself, filling their tanks for them (for free), and often picking up their snack wrappers, forgotten gear, and even beer cans... Then ride around with a day-glo thingamabob in the back of my truck for a week while Around Here #47 gets around to picking up his forgotten piece of kit.

Sorry, ranting again. :)

So what would I do in that situation? Well, I'm guilty of doing what I shouldn't do, and that's brush over all but the very worst of issues, and try not to let it ruin my dive. I should call the dive and head in... But I generally don't. I do avoid diving with them again, which can be tough, and often hoses an otherwise good friendship, even if I never mention anything about the fact that I really don't want to dive with them any more.

Truth be told, I think this is why I'm not an instructor. I know I have the patience to deal with the noob who knows that he doesn't know... But the ones that don't know that they don't know... Er, rather, the ones that absolutely insist on practicing methodologies that are plainly dangerous... I don't think I'd have the patience for.

9am... Gotta go blow tanks. :)
 
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Underneath, he was wearing 128 pounds of lead (5 mil suit that day)

That just boggles the mind :eek1: Up here I dive a 7mil, with a 7mil hooded vest when the water is truly chilly, and it takes just a mere 30lbs to get me neutral with all that neoprene.
 
In a 5mm w/ 5mm hooded vest in fw, I'm at 16lbs. Saltwater would be 25% more based upon an average specific gravity of 1.025

-Tim
 
Yep, you guys seem to be much better off than the people I'm seeing on a regular basis "Around Here." :)

Tim: Close... You should actually need 2.5% more weight, not 25% more... But your thinking is right even if your math is off by a decimal. A general rule is a 3-pound difference per 100 pounds of diver (including gear). For example, if you weigh 190 lbs and are generally wearing a single tank, you can estimate that you'll need 6-8 pounds more weight in saltwater than you do in freshwater.

Of course, that's an estimate, not a hard rule. You can find out your actual weighting by going through the standard PADI exercise:

1. Float at the surface with your rig. Make sure you have an EMPTY (or near empty) tank.

2. Take a full breath and hold it (yeah, it's okay to do at this point).

3. Deflate your BC/wing completely. You may have to do the Funky Chicken to get all of the air out.

4. You should float, vertically, at eye level exactly. That is, the surface of the water should bisect your mask if you're looking dead ahead and your body is vertical in the water.

5. If you do this with a full tank rather than an empty one, add six pounds (for a standard aluminum 80) to your final total, since a full tank weighs 6 pounds more full than it does empty.

'Course, with the numbers that you're showing, it sounds like you guys are pretty close to perfection already. It varies for each person, depending on their body's specific gravity, which is a nice way of saying, "body fat percentage" or "BMI." Fattier people will need slightly more weight than those who weigh the same but are more muscular.

Don't forget, too, that weight requirements can vary slightly, too, depending on gear. In the realm of BCs, they call this "inherent buoyancy." Most rigs are positively buoyant, even if they're completely emptied of air - so you'll need to weight for that, too. Ditto for plastic (buoyant) doohickeys, leashes and lanyards... Not to mention fins (some are positively buoyant), 5-gallon masks (and most full-face masks) and even titanium regs. Anything that is light and floats, you're going to have to add weight for.

...Which is one of the many reasons why a backplate and wing works so well. Inherently, a backplate and wing setup is between 1 and 16 pounds negative (depends on the plate and it's accessories - most are about 6 or 7 pounds negative), as are it's stainless steel D-rings, chrome-over-brass regulators, stainless steel bolt snaps, and heavy Scubapro Jet fins. For each pound of negative inherent buoyancy in a piece of gear, one pound can come off of the diver's waist.

Some BCs are worse offenders of inherent buoyancy than others. Bladders and air cells with "corners" trap air and prevent the diver from being able to empty the cell completely. Just a small amount of air that won't dump may mean wearing yet another pound or two of lead.

Thus, "wings" with a round shape and smooth edges that dump all of the air in them easily are the best choice for a diver who wants to minimize the amount of lead he needs to be correctly weighted.

Of course, there's a point at which things are too heavy - if you're diving with gear and not using any weight at all and you're still too heavy according to your PADI weight test above, then something's got to be done to lighten the load. A popular thing to do is to change to lighter tanks or dive with an aluminum backplate instead of a stainless steel one, a difference of 5 pounds.

The final objective is to nail your weighting with a minimum amount of lead, which is otherwise dead weight. Amongst other things, this rationale also spreads your weight throughout your gear rather than focusing it all on your waist, which is not only more comfortable, but "trims" you nicely... The idea being that not only are you neutrally buoyant, but also have a neutral attitude in the water, and ultimately, you can place your body in any position in the water - horizontal, vertical, at any angle, without an "argument" from your rig constantly trying to tilt you into any one position.

Divers who nail this point not only of neutral buoyancy, but neutral trim, can, in a horizontal position, make their whole body "tilt up" by straightening their legs and "tilt down" by bending their knees. Neutral trim would be where the knees are bent at a 90* angle.

Ultimately, this gives the perfectly buoyanced and perfectly trimmed diver control over one more aspect of their position in the water without having to "fin" to get there. This becomes an enormous advantage when, for example, the bottom is very silty or the wreck's ceiling is very rusty, and any fin movement tends to silt everything out... The diver then has ultimate control without finning at all.

...This also creates a situation whereby the diver is super-relaxed, and his gas consumption goes waaay down.

Of course, the whole "bend at the knee to change your attitude" thing only works when your feet are negative - so heavy fins are a prerequisite, unless you're willing to wear ankle weights, which are really just a crutch for fins that are too light to begin with.

It's nuances like these that make up the "DIR Philosophy" in diving... Yeah, it's about gear, but more about skill and learning how to use all gear in ways that aren't immediately obvious. Those who practice the DIR Philosophy call the system "holistic," which is to say that every one part of the system affects another in a not-so-obvious way. After all, who would think that fins were used for trim moreso than for propulsion? Or that the "BC" has a bigger, deeper purpose than to simply tie the tank to the diver's back and provide variable buoyancy?

...Which is why, if you read about it, the DIR Philosophy is considered "holistic," and incomplete unless the entire system is adopted. No one piece of gear and no one skill is considered complete without another - they all sorta rely on the other.

...Which is also why, when you get around DIR divers, they all seem to be wearing the same things, and using the same skills. It may be apparent that they're all "copycating" each other, but really, it's about the skill set. Having the same gear also simplifies everything - any one person who breaks something will find that his buddy has a spare part, because they both dive the same equipment... And emergencies, first aid, and sharing gear is dramatically simplified because everyone on the "team" all has the same rig, and all know intimately how everyone else's system is put together.

We're often referred to by other divers as "weird" or "cultish" or whatever... Before I learned the system, I used to joke with them and call them "DIR Nazis." :) Often we will even joke with each other about "drinking the Kool-Aid" or "a Rule 6 violation" (something made up, implying that there's a list of "rules," which there isn't) or the "secret handshake." The truth is, none of that really exists, although often a DIR diver's position lends to him folding his hands in front of him so that he can see his gauges... Which is often jokingly refered to as the "secret handshake."

...Anyway, enough philosophy class. Time for physiology class. :)

You and your buddy are diving in a pretty spring in Florida. This one's got a maximum depth of 130 feet, and you are enjoying the amazing visibility.

The two of you are enjoying trying out your new backplates and wings. Amazingly, you've found that in a 3 mil suit (water is in the mid-70's), you need no additional lead at all to be perfectly weighted. The sensation of diving in a perfectly horizontal, neutrally buoyant, neutrally trimmed position gives both you and your buddy this odd "skydiverish" position in the water, made even more striking by the perfect visibility. For the first time, you feel like you're flying - and it's an unbelievable sensation.

You look down and toward the deeper end of the spring (you can easily see detail on the bottom), you see a diver apparently huffing and puffing, based on his bubbles. The green bands on his tank may give it away, but you're not sure... Suddenly, he begins to spasm in an odd way, like he's running out of air... But you're not sure.

He kinda rolls over onto his back and takes a fetal position, and you notice that he's shivering like he's really cold. Breathing out to sink, you descend to the bottom of the spring at nearly 130 feet. His eyes have rolled into the back of his head and his jaw is so clenched that you think he may bite through the mouthpiece of his reg!

What would you do?
 
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Sorry for my late responses....I know alot of Seals...cool and crazy dudes. I think it depends on the peson, and their experiences, most of them that I know; really know there stuff. Military diving is nothing like recreational though :D

As far the scenario- Would you consider the shivering as convulsions? :D
 
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