A Game: WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15050292#post15050292 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Grunt

As far the scenario- Would you consider the shivering as convulsions? :D

Yep. :)

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15050292#post15050292 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Grunt
Military diving is nothing like recreational though.

What makes you think that? I mean, in what way are they different?
 
Oxygen Toxicity! I would assist the diver to the surface while holding/keeping the regulator in his mouth. Activation of the emergency medical services at the surface should occur. Observe breathing and provide CPR if necessary. If supplemental air is given note the amount of oxygen so they can determine whether or not he wil need hyperbaric treatment and to also keep track of OTU's.



"What makes you think that? I mean, in what way are they different?"

How aren't they different?

The training for each is 180 degrees in opposing directions. Scuba school is one, if not the hardest school to pass. Civilian training can be condensed into a weekend for those travelers that dont have much time.

The goal or mission of diving is different, in the military you dont just stop to look at stuff and take pictures and ohhh and ahhhh. You have a mission and purpose to being there, and its not to look at fish.

Underwater navigation is vastly important in military diving where as most civilian divers haven't had much if any training in that area except for a small taste in their advanced diver cert.

There are alot of reasons they are different..alot more. :D
 
Tim? Snorvich? Billsreef? What do you guys think?

You guys may not have been taught this stuff yet - I'm curious to see if any of you have seen it in your classes yet.

With regards to military training vs. recreational training... It's interesting that you'd point out the differences and thus consider them so different. I would have pointed out the similarities, and considered them very similar.

Fairly speaking, I was raised in a military household - my father was a lifer Air Force fighter pilot, and I graduated from a military academy - but have never served in the military myself. Thus, I may be speaking out of ignorance about military scuba training... You probably know a lot more about it than I do.

The similarities that I see are physiological... And that's what I would have focused on. Ongassing and offgassing is the same, and thus profiles, risk, and limitations should all be the same. While your average Joe Diver isn't going to be as fit or as trained as your average Joe Military Diver, physiologically there's very little difference between the two divers.

My point is that diving should be consistent and standardized as much as possible across all "kinds" of diving. It's a disservice to all "kinds" of diving if we separate diving into subsets of military, commercial, industrial, recreational and technical. If we were to continue that thought process, we could also break it down into the subsets of inshore, offshore, freshwater, saltwater, warmwater, cold water, cave, wreck, penetration, working, non-working, sport, rescue, recovery, salvage, medical, shallow, blackwater, tropical, deep, spearfishing, scientific, night, etc... In addition to military, commercial, industrial, recreational, and technical. I'm sure there's more... Last year at DEMA someone coined the phrase, "techreational" to describe the "growing number of recreational divers looking for 'tech-like' gear." Some manufacturers are now calling this concept "crossover," which plainly clouds the entire lineup of gear offerings with marketing slap. Why not call it "hybrid?" How 'bout "bi?" :D

The bottom line is that diving is diving... All rules apply no matter whether you're spinning a wrench and wearing a hardhat and an umbilical or cruising along with your wife, looking at the pretty fish, or sneaking up on a fort to annihilate the enemy. Consistently I hear people say that technology "trickles down" from "technical diving" to "recreational diving." The truth is that there is no difference between the two... In diving, all rules apply regardless of your goal or objective underwater.

In my humble opinion, it's a disservice to every "kind" of diving as soon as you separate diving into different subsets.

...This is the very heart of the problem with the attitude of the "Around Here" diver. For some unknown reason, he thinks that the rules don't apply to him or that everything that he was taught in class doesn't apply because our local water tends to be lower visibility than the pretty, clear stuff in tropical resorts. When he believes that, suddenly there is a complete deviation from logic, and things like 128 pounds of weight, enormous wings and powerful lights mounted on skateboard helmets make sense to him.

In ANY diving, streamlining, buoyancy control, various propulsion techniques, situational awareness, a "team" philosophy, the proper breathing gas for the depth, navigational skills and gas management skills ALL are top priority and have equal importance. After all, when you end up in a chamber, the hyperbaric tech may ask a lot of questions, but not one of them is, "what KIND of diving were you doing?"
 
Last edited:
I'm not a Navy diver or instructor so I cant comment too much on the subject. However werent recreational dive tables originally developed from navy dive tables, which are in fact different? Last time I looked at a navy dive table is wasnt the same, times and depths were greater. I would assume a comparsion of groups and surface intervals would be somewhat different as well. Im not a navy diver so I am making assumptions here.

"The similarities that I see are physiological... And that's what I would have focused on. Ongassing and offgassing is the same, and thus profiles, risk, and limitations should all be the same."

I somewhat agree, the human body will react in the same manner to diving. However its how you dive (purpose) thats makes the situation different. Let me pose a situation for you. A navy personnel jumps from an airplane, free falls thousands of feet into the ocean. Dives to depth X and continues inland to his target. Once the target is taken care of he then reeneters the ocean to meet an awaiting submarine at depth Y. Which the diver then stays in for weeks.

Physiologically wouldnt that diver be different then someone who is say diving three times per day? Now if that person where diving the same profiles, same dives, then yes its all the same no matter how you look at it.

"My point is that diving should be consistent and standardized as much as possible across all "kinds" of diving"...."Diving is diving"

I totally agree.

"In ANY diving, streamlining, buoyancy control, various propulsion techniques, situational awareness, a "team" philosophy, the proper breathing gas for the depth, navigational skills and gas management skills ALL are top priority and have equal importance."

Agreed but not all divers recieve or practice the same skills. As an experienced diver you know that. What about the family who only dives once or twice a year and never pracitice their skills. It's important, but doesn't mean they maintain or develop those skills throughout the year.

The only reason I dive in missouri is to practice in bad conditions so that when I hit the ocean, all I have to do practically, is nothing but enjoy my experience.


"After all, when you end up in a chamber, the hyperbaric tech may ask a lot of questions, but not one of them is, "what KIND of diving were you doing?""

No but he will ask what depth and for how long. Hopefully you dont end up in a chamber in the first place :D


I'm not trying to start a political debate on diving, diving is diving afterall. My intentions here were to answer scenarios so that less experienced divers can take away the knowledge of the situation in case something ever happens to them underwater. Hopefully this information can help someone, somewhere, someday. I dont think they should be categorized, but they can be different depending on how you push the limits, and the human body reactions to those limits.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15058274#post15058274 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Grunt
I'm not a Navy diver or instructor so I cant comment too much on the subject. However werent recreational dive tables originally developed from navy dive tables, which are in fact different?


Tables are developed by clinical research done by hyperbaric facilities around the world... Although most of the information that has led to the tables that we know has come from Duke University's Hyperbaric Facility.

Effectively, the US Navy Dive Tables are the tables that Duke developed. PADI, NAUI, YMCA, etc. all basically start with that table and then alter it slightly for a more conservative profile. Since your average military diver is more fit than your average recreational diver, this is probably a good idea, although personally, if it were me who represented the agency, I would not be so bold as to present something to the public that is something OTHER than what clinical research actually supports... But that's just me. :)

...So in a way, the tables are different, but only because the agency that publishes the table added in some conservatism.

The data, the studies, and the clinical research is the same.


A navy personnel jumps from an airplane, free falls thousands of feet into the ocean. Dives to depth X and continues inland to his target. Once the target is taken care of he then reeneters the ocean to meet an awaiting submarine at depth Y. Which the diver then stays in for weeks.

Physiologically wouldnt that diver be different then someone who is say diving three times per day?

You mean, "are these two people nitrogen-loaded at different levels?" Of course!

My point is that if you took each one of these guys and switched roles... That is, took the vacationer and made him do the military stuff and made the military guy take a vacation diving three times a day, then, predictably, each of them would "load" pretty similarly to the other guy.

...Which is to say that there is no need for MILITARY dive tables and RECREATIONAL dive tables and TECHNICAL dive tables and COMMERCIAL dive tables... All we need is one simple set of dive tables that work well in any situation. Why would it matter if you had a gun, a spear, or a wrench in your hand when talking about dive tables?

...Which is something that seems lost on so many people. They say, "Around Here, things are different." They're not "different"... These people just want an excuse as to why they're diving stupid. How else would you be able to explain a BC with 90 pounds of lift? 128 lbs of lead on your body? Diving with a rake? What, do these people think that PADI and NAUI and other agencies had no idea that this area Around Here existed when they wrote their Open Water manuals?


Agreed but not all divers recieve or practice the same skills. As an experienced diver you know that. What about the family who only dives once or twice a year and never pracitice their skills.

Well, I would tell them that if they like living, they might want to practice their skills.

After all, it's not like, since one guy's lacking skills, he's going to be LESS dead than the next guy... The basic skill sets of planning the dive, working the tables, maintaining buoyancy and control, and basic gas management all apply to everyone who likes to live... Everyone who has lungs and blood and whose bodies metabolize oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide. Everyone who ongasses at depth and offgasses as pressure is relieved.

If the basic skills to be able to survive underwater using SCUBA gear aren't there or are lacking - I would tell people that they need to brush up on their skills, not go diving anyway and write it off as an "Oh, well..."

...Which is exactly my point. Yes, this stuff applies to everyone, in all situations, diving anywhere in the world, using any piece of gear. If one of the vacationers is 12-year old kid, and he can't understand how much his body is N2 loaded, then he needs to not be scuba diving. If he can't do this safely and be able to make safe decisions, then he's an accident waiting to happen... Period. DCI doesn't somehow excuse him because he's 12.

Diving is diving... There's no need to subdivide any more than that. And yes, the same ideals and philosophies and gas laws apply Around Here too, and to me and them and you, too. :)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15056867#post15056867 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SeaJayInSC
Tim? Snorvich? Billsreef? What do you guys think?
This scenario is far too out of my league, and BTW thanks for the decimal correction above... ;)

On another note: My ears are coming along very well and now hold full pressure again, so I'm thinking about a deep water solo cave dive next week... Your thoughts..? :D

-Tim
 
Do me a favor and carry your own body bag so I don't have to bring one. :D

You're such an instigator! :D

Yeah, sorry about all of the passion... I'm typically a pretty easy-going guy... But on this topic, I'm pretty opinionated. :)

Too cool that you'd say something like, "This is out of my league." I have to respect a guy that says something like that. You mean you didn't invent scuba diving? You mean you didn't once dive the Mariana Trench, just to see what was down there? :)

...Like I don't know - like ANYONE wouldn't know - that the guy that says that is full of poop. :)

Glad to hear that the ear is healing well. Quick recovery, my friend!
 
Do I think that military diving is different than recreational diving? Physiologically, there can be no difference. The things we teach recreational divers are practices that are somewhat more risk averse than what I think the navy teaches (I have never had military experience or training, so I cannot say). But the navy also teaches (I suspect) risk mitigation strategies that recreational divers never learn and if they knew them, probably would be unwilling to practice. The vast majority of divers that dive recreationally, are inadequately trained. Some of that lack of training can be overcome by doing a large number of dives within the context of what is safe and proven and not pushing the tables or the computer. Initially divers have to focus primarily on staying alive. After a long while, you can "feel the water" (sorry that is trite, but I am not sure what to call it) and they can, for example, feel their buoyancy change with a single breath.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15060552#post15060552 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SeaJayInSC
Do me a favor and carry your own body bag so I don't have to bring one. :D

You're such an instigator! :D

Yeah, sorry about all of the passion... I'm typically a pretty easy-going guy... But on this topic, I'm pretty opinionated. :)

Too cool that you'd say something like, "This is out of my league." I have to respect a guy that says something like that. You mean you didn't invent scuba diving? You mean you didn't once dive the Mariana Trench, just to see what was down there? :)

...Like I don't know - like ANYONE wouldn't know - that the guy that says that is full of poop. :)

Glad to hear that the ear is healing well. Quick recovery, my friend!
Hey, like I've said all along, I really do pay attention to and focus on what you've taught me along the way... Hopefully some of my responses in this very thread have reinforced that. I think my only screw up in answers here so far has been in regards to where I stated the rule of 120/110 as I understood it (further time decay on subsequent dives, etc.).

Even though my ears are feeling much much better now and appear to be healing up quite nicely, I'm not going to be in a position to do anymore diving at this point until July anyway, so they will have had a good couple of months to strengthen. The next month and a half is heavily covered up with motorcycle trips to varying destinations, so at least I won't be left high and dry with nothing to do during the remainder of my recovery.

Also, in regards to safety issues; I'm generally either a non-helmet wearing rider or I wear a 3/4, but lately we've had far too many friends go down hard (1 guy was in a coma for a couple of weeks), so 2 days ago I bought us a new set of expensive Full Face fiberglass lids, rather than their cheaper and more readily available Polycarbonate counterparts. I've always been a safety fanatic, but like having freedom to be me, and while you and I will likely continue to disagree on specific issues, I will continue to live as free as I can with redundant levels of protection.

The answer I was really looking for in the deep water solo cave dive question, was more in regards to whether I should wear Turquoise or Pink........ :lol:

You guys have a great and SAFE holiday weekend doing whatever or whomever... I'll be hanging out at a clubhouse with a ton of full-patched bikers from all over the Midwest & Midsouth. In fact, as I was finishing this last paragraph, I received a call from a couple of them wondering where the hell I'm at, so it's time for me to leather up and start riding! ;)

-Tim
 
I agree Steve. I think we were just looking at it the situation in different terms and I probably dont explain it as well as I mean too. Diving is diving.

Thanks for the information on the dive tables SeaJay, learn something new everyday. :D

As far as the scenario was oxygen toxicity the correct assumption?>
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15060999#post15060999 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tgreene
The answer I was really looking for in the deep water solo cave dive question, was more in regards to whether I should wear Turquoise or Pink........ :lol:

Seeing how your also a biker, Pink is the only way to go :D
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15056867#post15056867 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SeaJayInSC
Tim? Snorvich? Billsreef? What do you guys think?

Ok, so you've got a guy having obvious and severe problems at 130' while on some unknown blend of Nitrox, could be simple 21% (aka air) or a high enough blend for O2 toxicity to be an issue at that depth. Could be a several other medical possibilities. He's obviously passed out, the reg is clenched in is teeth, so leave it in place. Next step, start inflating his BC to get him neutral and start bringing him up in a controlled emergency ascent. While making the ascent, I'm going to check his gauges and see if the tank is properly labeled with the Nitrox blend he's diving, in order to further assess what the cause of his problems might be. Upon hitting the surface, I'm ditching his weights, BC and Tank if possible (reduced drag) as well as ditching my gear...my buddy will do the same and swim like a madman for the shore to call EMS while I bring our unconscious diver to shore. What happens next depends on how fast EMS shows up vs. getting the diver to shore where first aid can be effectively administered.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15062603#post15062603 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by billsreef
Seeing how your also a biker, Pink is the only way to go :D
Now see, that's what I'm talking about... That's is the type of quality information that keeps me coming back time and time again! :bum:
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15062655#post15062655 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by billsreef
Ok, so you've got a guy having obvious and severe problems at 130' while on some unknown blend of Nitrox, could be simple 21% (aka air) or a high enough blend for O2 toxicity to be an issue at that depth. Could be a several other medical possibilities. He's obviously passed out, the reg is clenched in is teeth, so leave it in place. Next step, start inflating his BC to get him neutral and start bringing him up in a controlled emergency ascent. While making the ascent, I'm going to check his gauges and see if the tank is properly labeled with the Nitrox blend he's diving, in order to further assess what the cause of his problems might be. Upon hitting the surface, I'm ditching his weights, BC and Tank if possible (reduced drag) as well as ditching my gear...my buddy will do the same and swim like a madman for the shore to call EMS while I bring our unconscious diver to shore. What happens next depends on how fast EMS shows up vs. getting the diver to shore where first aid can be effectively administered.

Clearly oxygen toxicity is a high probability. But a stroke or heart attack is also possible. I agree with Bill for the most part. I especially want to look at his computer if he has one, or recover any possible information for assessing the dive problem if it is a dive problem. On the surface, I ditch his weight belt and check for any integrated weights and ditch those as well. I keep his tank and BCD on. I ditch my gear, hanging my weight belt on my BCD for easy recovery and to avoid hitting someone below on the head. If I have a buddy, I have him go to call EMS and DAN, leaving his BCD and weight belt on the surface. Assess is he breathing. If not, do mouth to mouth. Tow to boat or shore. Most importantly, do not turn this into a double accident. If he comes to, he will panic, and you must be able to avoid that panic (which is why I leave his gear, except weights, in place)
 
Damn, next time I have an issue underwater, I want to be diving with Billsreef! That answer is so spot-on, I think he could write the chapter in the Nitrox manual that talks about OxTox. Nicely done!

Grunt, yep, you're dead-on. The issue is oxygen toxicity, known in some circles as "OxTox." Bingo!

Billsreef said something really interesting... He said:


Ok, so you've got a guy having obvious and severe problems at 130' while on some unknown blend of Nitrox, could be simple 21% (aka air) or a high enough blend for O2 toxicity to be an issue at that depth.

There's two parts of this sentence that make it really interesting, with reference to the gas breathed known as "nitrox." For those of you who don't know, the term "nitrox" means, literally, "a combination of nitrogen and oxygen," which is what air is... 21% oxygen and 79% nitrogen, save for a few trace gasses like hydrogen, helium, neon, argon, and more. That's what you're breathing right now... Congratulations, you're nitrox-experienced. :)

Within the dive community, however, the term "nitrox" usually refers to air that's been oxygen-enriched... That is, a breathing gas that's been "souped up" with a higher percentage of oxygen in it than normal air has. Typical "mixes" are 32% and 36%, commonly known in the "recreational" community as "Nitrox 1" and "Nitrox 2." However, to better define an oxygen-enriched breathing gas, many divers with a scientific mindset call it "Enriched Air Nitrox (percentage)," or "EANx" to better define that it's not standard air. Thus, "Nitrox 1" could be better expressed as EAN32 and "Nitrox 2" could be better expressed as EAN36.

There are several advantages to breathing EANx instead of air when diving:

1. Because the diver is breathing gas that has less nitrogen in it (EAN32 would have 68% nitrogen in it rather than 79%), the ongassing of nitrogen is less. Therefore, this extends the diver's NDL. EAN32 has the very convenient properties that it ongasses at 80% of air... In other words, a diver breathing EAN32 at 100 feet uses the same math as a diver breathing air at 80 feet. Thus... More bottom time for a given depth.

2. The diver can alternatively enjoy shorter surface intervals between dives, because he’s ongassed less nitrogen and is therefore in a lower pressure group (this should make sense if you’re familiar with PADI’s tables).

3. My favorite... The diver can use a standard air profile for the depth that they were really diving, but enjoy the additional safety margin that EANx delivers.

4. Since EANx, by default, has less nitrogen in it, a diver is less likely to experience being “narked,” and if he is, the effects of it are less. This can turn into a huge advantage at depth.

5. Many divers report that after a full day of diving EANx, they feel much better than after a day of diving air. This is due to the increased oxygen percentage, the decreased nitrogen loading, and the fact that the diver’s body has not had to fight as many bubbles all day long, which are often considered invaders… Studies show that divers who nitrogen-load themselves consistently have elevated white blood cell counts… In other words, the body is in “defend itself” mode, and mild flu-like symptoms of being tired, groggy and achey can be the result. Using EANx reduces the tendency for the body to defend itself because nitrogen loading is reduced… There’s less bubbles… And a reduction in these symptoms is the result.

The age-old method of creating EANx is to fill an otherwise empty tank with oxygen partially, then topping it off with air. This process is known as "mixing." There are other ways of obtaining EANx as well... However, for the sake of simplicity here we'll consider mixing as the standard method. EAN32, for example, is obtained by filling an empty scuba tank to about 420 psi with oxygen and then topping it off with air.

Enriching breathing gas with oxygen has it's advantages and disadvantages... As with most things scuba, there is a tradeoff. Of course, oxygen is a requirement for life - we need it to survive. However, at pressure (which, to a scuba diver, means depth), oxygen becomes increasingly more potent. There's not an easier way to explain it other than that. There DOES come a point where you can feed your body too much oxygen... The results of doing so typically result in convulsions and a lack of control of muscle tissues. The medical term for this is "Central Nervous System Toxicity," or CNS Toxicity. Divers call it "Oxygen Toxicity," or OxTox. This is what our diver in the previous scenario was experiencing.

The biggest danger of OxTox is the loss of control. A diver experiencing OxTox could potentially spit out their reg and not be able to retrieve it, or lose control of their buoyancy and not be able to do anything about it. OxTox is considered a life-threatening situation. Any diver experiencing it should immediately ascend - that is, reduce their ambient pressure and the symptoms should subside. Unfortunately, a diver OxToxing will not have the ability to do this on their own. This is what was happening in our dive scenario above.

The higher the percentage of oxygen in a diver's breathing gas, the shallower the diver must limit his depth to in order to remain safe. 100% oxygen is safe to breathe to a depth of 20 feet. EAN32 is safe to breathe to a depth of 120 feet. EAN36 is safe to breathe to a depth of 100 feet. Any deeper with these gasses, and the situation can be considered life-threatening. There is no difference between putting a loaded pistol to your head and diving 36% to a depth of 140 feet.

In fact, if one had to make a choice between the two methods of dying, the bullet to the head would probably be less violent and less painful. People who have experienced OxTox claim that while their bodies were painfully in the throws of spasms, their minds were clear and fully aware of what was happening to them. At least with the bullet it'd be over instantly.

This is why a certification is required before anyone will consider selling you "nitrox." Like most things scuba, there is an element of risk involved, and only the officially informed should be permitted to use it.

In the circles I run in, this is so important that we’ve stopped using the terms “nitrox” or even “EANx” completely. Instead, we simply refer to the gas by the deepest it can be safely used. For example, EAN36 would be “Maximum Operating Depth 100” or MOD100. Pure oxygen would be considered MOD20. EAN32 would be considered MOD120. Our mindset is that we don’t care really what’s in the bottle… What we care about is, “at what point are we putting a loaded gun to our heads?”

Interestingly, air is not somehow exempt from the equation which allows you to figure out at what depth the oxygen content will cause an OxTox… 21% oxygen â€"œ air â€"œ can only be safely breathed down to a depth of about 190 feet. Thus, we don’t call it “air” â€"œ we call it MOD190, or a “190 mix” for short… Even though, technically, we didn’t mix anything to make it.

…Now, since “recreational” divers aren’t taught to go deeper than 140’, nobody bothers to teach this whole OxTox thing until later in a dive education… Called the “Partial Pressure of Oxygen,” or PPO2 for short. However, whether you’re aware of it or not, the science is there… So you may find it interesting that, at some time in your dive career, you were only 50 to 100 feet from death by OxTox.

Taking this one step further, there ARE divers who have dived to depths below 190 feet... Bringing this theory back into play, it can be surmised that a safe gas to dive at that depth would have LESS oxygen in it than air does… What is commonly referred to as a “hypoxic” mix, which can have such oxygen percentages as 18%, 15% and 10%. These are made by diluting EAN32 (or MOD120) with helium, since there is no practical way of removing oxygen from air other than adding another gas… And adding nitrogen would “nark” the diver badly and load him with nitrogen, making decompression very long. Helium is a very lightweight gas which offgasses very easily. A mix of these three gasses (oxygen, helium, and nitrogen/air) is known a “trimix,” but again, we simply refer to it as MOD200, MOD250, and MOD400.

Interestingly, we’ve established that every breathing gas has a MOD… Even air. However, there are some gasses that could have a MINIMUM, too… For example, MOD400 is a required gas at, say, 350 feet… MOD190 (air) would kill the diver at that depth via OxTox. However, on the surface, MOD190 works great… But MOD400 simply doesn’t have enough oxygen in it to support life on the surface… Breathe it, and you’ll fall asleep and eventually die. Thus, a deep diver has one gas that will kill him at depth and one gas that will kill him on the surface… So he’d better know which to breathe, when to switch, and why.

Those who have been following along here may think, “Why not get rid of ALL of the nitrogen in the mix, and just do oxygen and helium, if helium’s so great? The answer is, “some do,” and the mix is called “heliox,” however, the cost of helium can make it a very expensive proposition… And being so light, helium has the odd characteristic of sapping body heat, so heliox is often known to make a diver very cold, very quickly… An uncomfortable situation for most, and downright dangerous for others.

Anyway… Back to Billsreef’s awesome post: Here’s what’s so interesting about the post:

1. Bill knew that this guy was using “some unknown blend of nitrox” because of the green stickers all over the tank. Most scuba shops have made it a point that green “NITROX” stickers or “EANx” stickers be placed all over any tank that could have anything but air in it. In some cases, they will not fill a tank with anything but MOD190 (air) unless these green stickers are in place. The problem with that concept is that the tank MAY typically be filled with EANx, but today is filled with air… There is nothing stopping any “nitrox” diver from putting anything he wants in that tank… Even pure oxygen, trimix or heliox… (Which, interestingly, would be the only situation where there wouldn’t be NITROX in the tank). Additionally, since the green stickers say “NITROX” all over them, there is no definition as to whether the gas in that tank is safe to breathe at that depth. Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t. If it’s MOD190 (air), then sure, he’s fine. If it’s MOD100, he’s way out of his envelope, and we can easily see why he’s OxToxing. The stickers are simply misleading at best, and do nothing to improve the safety of the situation… In fact, they actually hinder it because, with the green stickers in place, a diver is less likely to place pertinent information on the tank, like a label that tells him what MOD the gas in that tank has.

2. Billsreef immediately sought pertinent information about the gas in that tank… In other words, he was looking for a label. This label would have been most helpful if it had told MOD. Yes, that can be figured by having the oxygen percentage on the label, but it’s simply easier to have MOD immediately at your fingertips… Which is why we recommend labeling EVERY tank with a MOD, and ONLY labeling every tank with a MOD. Here’s some examples of NOT pertinent information, that only obscures the pertinent information: Forty-two VIP stickers, “Scuba Bunny” stickers, NITROX stickers, “Divers Do it Deeper” stickers, “Jacques Cousteau’s college roommate” stickers, “Prior Navy SEAL” stickers, fill date stickers, initials of the person who filled the tank stickers, Leisurepro stickers, brand name stickers, DAN stickers, etc. There should be TWO stickers on the tank… One, the current VIP sticker (placed on the bottom of the tank where it will be protected in it’s depression), and two, the MOD. We label ALL of our tanks with a MOD â€"œ even those we fill with air. It’s as simple as placing a piece of masking tape (we like the blue stuff from Wal-Mart â€"œ it’s not a “Rule 6” violation) and using a marker to write “190” on it. When we're done using the bottle, we pull the tape off and throw it away. Any tank with no sticker tells us that it’s an empty tank.

This system is easy, simple, effective and safe… And we know immediately what gas is safe to breathe at what depth.

…Which is why, when I see a diver with plain tanks and a label with “120” on the back of his tank, I not only know that he’s safe to dive to 100 but not safe to dive to 130… But that he’s a guy who cares and values logical decisions about his life.
 
Last edited:
Thats why I assumed Oxygen toc...green label (nitrox), the depth, convulsions/shaking, and unconsiciousness.... thats also the reason I said i would hold his reg on ascent, you never know when his mouth will untighten and possibly lose the reg, or if he comes up on ascent and freaks out.

I typically use a mix of EAN32.

Thanks for the backup Bill :D

Whats next?! :D
 
K... Here ya go. I see this one happen all the time...

You're fossil diving in one of our local rivers here. You and a buddy go out on his boat, anchor off in some river in the wilderness, gear up, and go diving. Along with your regular gear (BC, fins, wetsuit, tank, reg, lights) you've got a "catch bag" - a net bag with a metal handle/closure - clipped off to your rig.

Max depth is 22', so, simply put, NDLs aren't going to be an issue today. Each of you brought four bottles - you plan to dive pretty much the entire day.

In addition to your anchor line, your buddy also equipped his boat with a long, yellow, polypro line with a big mooring ball on the end of it. It's nearly 200' long, and trails out far behind the boat in the current. This is so that, when you come up, you have something to grab if you miss the boat. Currents here can exceed 5 knots - the very reason why the bottom is being eroded and fossils are available.

You descend down your anchor line, lose your buddy (which is so common that it was actually a part of the plan) and begin your search on the bottom for priceless megalodon teeth and whale vertebrae. Always, you move forward, into the current so as to always be upstream of your boat.

After more than an hour, you check your guages and notice that you're starting to dip below 500 psi. You spend a few more minutes topping off your catch bag (you must have found at least $2k in fossils!) and head for the surface.

Topside, you blink at the daylight, inflate your BC/wing, and look around for the boat.

No boat.

You look around further, and realize that you're WAAY off from the boat. The current is bringing you toward it, but over to the side. You begin your swim, planning with the current.

Unfortunately, the more you swim, the more you realize... You're going to miss it. You simply can't swim fast enough to keep the current from blowing you past the boat.

Good thing your buddy has that line out back...

Looking for the mooring ball, you realize... You're not going to be able to hit that, either. You're going to miss the whole shebang.

Nobody's on the boat - your buddy is still down there, certainly near coming up, too... But you're not going to make it to the boat or the line in time to catch it. The current's got you, and there's nothing you can do about it.

What would you do?
 
If there is chance that ditching gear (and the catch bag) will lighten the load sufficiently for me to make that tag line, that's what I'm doing. Another possible option, if I have some line with me, is to use my weight belt an catch bag as an anchor and anchor myself in place to wait for my buddy to surface and come get me. Should neither of those two options be workable, it's time to head for shore and hike back upriver :D
 
…Now, since “recreational” divers aren’t taught to go deeper than 140’, nobody bothers to teach this whole OxTox thing until later in a dive education… Called the “Partial Pressure of Oxygen,” or PPO2 for short. However, whether you’re aware of it or not, the science is there… So you may find it interesting that, at some time in your dive career, you were only 50 to 100 feet from death by OxTox.
We're taught and LIMITED to 120 with the F-factor of +10 for a "death level" base of 130'... Anything beyond 130' is never once mentioned in the OW Cert book. I was led to believe that at 131' I would spontaneously implode into a mass of gooey red chum. ;)

Actually, OW is 60 and AOW is 120, but who's counting...

-Tim
 
Before we jump too damn far ahead, let's stay on the 130' OxTox diver for a little longer, even though I stated early on that it's well beyond my knowledge level at this point...

*If* the waters are nice and clear and I'm hoving at 60' which is all that I'm certified to dive to at this point when I notice the diver directly below me at what clearly appears to be beyond twice my maximum allowable depth, and I'm the only option that he has, blah, blah, blah... This is obviously going to be a narc level for me, and I've never been there before, but am quite well versed with the more traditional elements of inebriation on dry land. I'm feeling good, have plenty of air since I just started my dive, but am still waiting for my buddy to reach depth and level out, what should I HONESTLY do..?

Now, before any of you answers this, consider that as a former wilderness guide I certainly know that I have to take my own safety into consideration first and foremost, but also fully recognize that there are and always will be times when caution must be thrown into the wind to rescue another person.

Also, don't cop out and tell me to take a Rescue Class before even thinking about things at this level, because while I'm quite certain the poor SOB laying below me at 130 and in dire straights would be more than willing to pay for it for me, he doesn't have time to wait around while I study and take tests...

-Tim
 
Back
Top