A Splash of Color

[Chibils]

Andrew -

What is your lighting set up? I know you run two 400w Radiums with 3 T5 tubes on each side. What ballasts are you running the halides on? What reflectors? And what T5 bulbs you running?

I know you're running this on an 18" tank, seems like a lot of light. I was looking at 250w halides with 2 T5s on each side over a 16" tank. Do you think this is enough light for acros? The tank isn't entirely SPS, will be acros on top with acans and NPS and random other corals in the corners and under ledges where there's less light.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

 

[aggie13reef]

Always Matt, it actually takes quite a bit to kill an acro.

I want to dose the bacteria only when i can get it as i've never played mad scientist with living organism dosing..........

I think the energy would be fine and if i was running the full AF routine i would use it. I started in this hobby when everyone freaked out about the thought of copper contamination so i have an aversion to using it lol.
I really have zero problems with anyone using copper but i do have a problem when a reefer does not acknowledge that it is contributing to the pale appearance of their acros - something none of my mates here are guilty of btw.
I think you should have experience with pigment manipulation by 'normal' means before you delve into products like the micro e. Guys like Matt and Perry had very colorful reefs prior to AF. They now have amazing colors and you'd have to be blind not to see the wonderful effects it has had. That's why i think AF is a great system and especially as a new to reefing method. I don't mean copper is why they have wonderful colors btw, i mean they know exactly what they are doing with all the additives and why they are doing it.
If you have crappy colors don't think copper will help. It will just let us see the crappy colors better :twitch:

Leave the copper dosing until you actually know how to pull nice colors using everything else, you can manipulate pigments easily with everything AF but no micro e.

Obviously that's just my personal take and as i say i don't care who uses what to get what results tbh, i just think that a lot of guys have the idea that copper will help with colors and that's not correct. It will help with micro management of your pigment shades WHEN you can color up your acros half decently. if you want to use it go for it but knowing what it can and can't do is important i think.

If i offended any of my mates i'm sorry, i would never mean to do that so feel free to correct me or add anything to the copper talk if you want. I probably explained myself badly :hmm5:

Thank you for the awesome explanation Andrew, I majored in Wildlife and Fishery Science in College so I am all about knowing how things work biologically. I didn't plan on using the AF energy or anything else from them other than the NP pro and Pro Bio S for a while. I am always trying to learn a little bit about Acros every day! Maybe one day I will be able to share some knowledge!

 

[biggles]

awesome setup!

Thanks mate

Andrew -

What is your lighting set up? I know you run two 400w Radiums with 3 T5 tubes on each side. What ballasts are you running the halides on? What reflectors? And what T5 bulbs you running?

I know you're running this on an 18" tank, seems like a lot of light. I was looking at 250w halides with 2 T5s on each side over a 16" tank. Do you think this is enough light for acros? The tank isn't entirely SPS, will be acros on top with acans and NPS and random other corals in the corners and under ledges where there's less light.

The only reason i am running 400W Radiums over the 18" display is for coverage. I can run them higher and cover more tank bottom than with 250W bulbs. 3 x 250W's lower would achieve the same effect but my display tank is designed for two halides only due to the center brace. In Aus Radium bulbs cost me $150 + so i'd rather run just two radiums. I usually run radium bulbs for 8 months before swapping but it also depends on finances etc as to how long i run them for.
The triple T5 units have Giesemann bulbs. 2 x actinic blue and 1 x lagoon blue in each.
The Radiums run on 400W HPS magnetic ballasts and one reflector is a rectangular fish street cheapo and the other is a $10- bat wing piece of garbage that came for free with one of the ballasts. I would like to buy a couple of real reflectors one day when i have cash to spare.

Using the 250W's and 2 x twin T5 units should be plenty. I would happily run those over a bottom area up to about 48"x30" at 16" depth with the radiums about 8-9" above the water. That's if i wanted to be able to do the same thing i have done with this display. You won't have a problem at all with what you have planned, you'll have more probs finding low light areas for your flubber than having enough light for the acros.

Thank you for the awesome explanation Andrew, I majored in Wildlife and Fishery Science in College so I am all about knowing how things work biologically. I didn't plan on using the AF energy or anything else from them other than the NP pro and Pro Bio S for a while. I am always trying to learn a little bit about Acros every day! Maybe one day I will be able to share some knowledge!

Hi Nick, remember that was just an explanation of my opinion on the use of copper, nothing more. I have a 15ml bottle of micro e in the reef goodies cupboard and if the mood takes me one day i will give the acros a couple of good doses and watch what happens a couple of days later. I'm very confident that the AF system works fabulously well for SPS colors without the need for micro e. If i was to go AF i would use the energy for 3 months or so and get a triton just to check the copper. As long as it was at NSW levels or lower i would keep using it. If it was say twice NSW levels after a few months dosing i'd know i was poisoning zoa and i would find an alternative product without the high copper. That's what i thought i was doing with the trace hard but it has a high proportion of copper way above NSW levels from the results i received.

The only reason to place copper in any product and then direct the reefer to dose that product at a rate that will induce copper levels to be at much higher levels than in NSW is to induce zoa expulsion - what other logical reason is there for any potion maker to add too much copper to a mix of supposed NSW trace element supplements.

All the makers of these products should not include copper in anything imo and then give you a bottle of their copper and give you directions on its use and effects when added to your other dosing regime. If all these mobs were up front about why copper is a big part of all their methods i wouldn't care but they all in one way or another gloss over the fact that they feel the need to shove copper in products we all want to use if only it didn't have bloody copper in it !.

I need someone doing full AF with no micro e dosing to get a triton so i know if the energy is BS high copper like the bloody trace hard is. I really wanted to use that but i won't after what happened with the trace hard. :headwally:

I don't trust any potion makers anymore.......... :hammer:

Probably just annoyed all my AF mates even more.......... :twitch:

Ichy BJ is eating like a pig and looking visibly brighter, all his food is soaked in garlic and hufa for 30 mins prior to letting him pig out. House stinks like garlic for 30 mins after every feed..........
I put 15ml of 3% hydrogen peroxide in every 12 hours as well because Dave told me to and if Dave says to do something for my fish i do it

 

[DiscusHeckel]

This article written by Randy Holmes-Farley makes very clear the distinction between organically bound copper and "unchelated copper ions that may represent portion of the total copper that is toxic to many organisms"

As I mentioned before, my concern in relaying heavily on ICP test results is that an ICP test does not make a distinction between organically bound copper and total copper, which is toxic to marine organisms. Randy provides a long list of copper sources for a marine tank, including fish and shellfish we use to feed our fish, dosing salts and synthetic salt we use to prepare salt mixes, and limewater (if used inappropriately). It looks as if import of copper to a reef tank is almost inevitable.

Until there is a way measuring organically bound copper and total copper separately, I remain to be skeptical of copper test results unless a known source that contains copper is used.

You are certainly taking some steps to control copper import to your tank by stopping Salifert trace elements, but Randy seems to think that in most cases the controlling factor is likely to be export rather than import": .... yet, all of the aquaria in the study mentioned above had copper concentrations within a factor of two of each other. That suggests to me that the controlling factor is more likely to be export than import, and this possibility and how it impacts the actions of aquarists wanting to maintain aquaria with low metals is discussed at the end of this article."

Quite a few export methods are mentioned in the article, one of which is the use of polyfilters as I mentioned previously. I bet that your polyfilter will not turn blue after a prolonged use in your tank. Instead, it will look dark brown due to chelating agents that bind copper.

One final thing: Randy also notes that "Other metals, such as zinc, may not be as extensively chelated". So, if trace element supplements are the main source of heavy metal import, then I can expect high zinc results, for example, in an ICP test. I cannot remember right now if this was the case in your test results.

Happy reefing

Bülent :wave:

 

[biggles]

When you get past all the science Bulent it is as simple as this mate. If i don't want to run anything but a skimmer, carbon and matrix as i do now then the most practical method available to me to limit the import of copper is to avoid anything that specifically discloses the presence of it.
That article was very informative thanks mate I realize it is going to get in there but i only have about 30lbs of LR in the display and the acros. Everything else can be replaced at will such as the sand and matrix so i'm not concerned about it especially since i chucked out all the sand and new stuff is going in.

I rely on water changes, fish food and the AF comp 123 for all my element replacing type stuff now so i have no need for trace hard. I use the koral color and lugols specifically targeting colors. It is my opinion based purely on my experience with pigment changes and colors in general that both have a positive influence on my coral pigments. Not just acros but everything including (especially) scollies/acans/zoas. All my corals are bright and colorful or all my corals are poopy colored. I never see the flubber happy when the acros aren't and vice versa, i used to think years ago that keeping water so clean the flubber washed out and slowly perished was perfect for SPS - we are talking quite a few years ago when i thought dumping a heaped tablespoon of kalk freshly mixed with 1 liter RO into the 4x2x2 each night was a good move....... you see i have done much stupider stuff than any of you guys could even dream up.
I once shattered a nearly new 400W radium bulb when the electric shock from touching the bit where the wires go in with a sopping wet hand made me spasm and chuck the reflector in order not to die. The reason i had wet hands was because i had bumped the reflector doing scape work and it was going to fall into the water so all hell broke loose culminating in me getting a serious whack of electron go go juice.
I've lost count of how many times i've been zapped but i'm pretty sure you build up an immunity much like bee keepers do to bee venom. That's based solely on the fact i'm still here so the jury is still out on that one. :reading:

I'm going to replace the energy with the hufa i've been using and use the vitality and the build. I can always try the energy after i try the other way for a few months. If i saw a wonderful improvement after using the energy i would keep using it. I have better pigment colors now than i did when John last visited and i was finishing with the trace hard. John will be coming over for a visit (he's bringing me a coral i've never had the chance to keep)
I will ask him to give you his opinion on whether he notices any positive change since i went to just water changes, lugols and koral color.
For me it is working well doing what i'm doing, better than when using the trace hard so that's the reason i don't believe you need to go out of your way to add it - nothing more. If i wanted lighter brighter colors i'm pretty sure i could do it in a matter of days with a couple of good doses of copper product. The thing is i'm perfectly happy with the specific 'look' of my acros. I think Debora's tank is very TOTM. It's too beautiful for words. That doesn't mean i would want to keep a display with that 'look'. I think i have made too big a deal out of the whole copper thing tbh, as long as you have colors no matter what the 'shade' you are a successful acro keeper in my books and deserve due respect. AF isn't successful due to copper dosing, i actually believe that only the micro e is 'copper dosing' so i wouldn't dissuade anyone from going nuts with everything else. After you see the success Perry and Matt have which should only take 3-4 months i reckon - try some micro e and see if you like the effect a few days later. Copper is for tweaking and nothing more. I believe the pastel colors is from the specific nutrient control methods not the copper btw. The copper just enhances the effect somewhat, nothing more.

You guys have no idea how hard it is getting for me to not go full on AF......... i mean Dave stocks the stuff........... and i have crap growth with good colors............ and i want good growth like Matt and Perry with good colors like Matt and Perry........ if i don't see some bloody growth spurt some time soon........... just saying.........:wavehand:

Here's some porn to make up for the ramble......:beer:

 

[Myka]

In Andrew's above previous posts regarding copper, he meant to say Coral E (Energy), not Micro E. Coral E (Energy) has Copper sulphate in it, not Micro E. Get it bloody straight Andrew! It's not Micro Energy it's Coral Energy! That and your goof with the Sea Salt really has me wondering if AF can be Bigglefied. :hammer:

 

[biggles]

Micro E Mindy

Supplement contains concentrated heavy metals "“ manganese, vanadium, zinc, nickel, iron, chromium, cobalt & copper. Mixture of trace elements necessary for all marine organisms.

I'd like that cocktail with just the copper dropped out in a separate bottle. If the micro e isn't the copper dosing i think it is then why don't they put all the copper you need in the energy which is dosed regularly. Why split the copper into two separate products............:reading:

 

[reefmutt]

In Andrew's above previous posts regarding copper, he meant to say Coral E (Energy), not Micro E. Coral E (Energy) has Copper sulphate in it, not Micro E. Get it bloody straight Andrew! It's not Micro Energy it's Coral Energy! That and your goof with the Sea Salt really has me wondering if AF can be Bigglefied. :hammer:

But, micro E does contain copper. Not sure what type of copper but it is in the ingredients..

Edit: oops.. Andrew is on it..

 

[biggles]

Don't worry though Mindy, i'm the last person to point out EPIC goofs......... we'll keep it between you and i and Matt......:wave:

.........more porn..........

 

[reefmutt]

With porn like that, Andrew, I don't know why you want to change your regimen....

 

[biggles]

With porn like that, Andrew, I don't know why you want to change your regimen....

Because it's snail porn Matt, it's like watching paint not dry....... you have no idea how much i envy the good growth you have mate.

I wanted to show you the mustardy skin color that is a beautiful pinky/orange just coloring up. It's Dom's and it was very ugly and pale so was in the shade for three weeks before i saw PE at night. I was worried about this piece for a couple of weeks. If you see an acro with what looks like an almost mustard tone to the branch tissue you are looking at what we all refer to as orange. Just in case you wanted to get an idea of what to look out for in the poopy acro section of your LFS...... mustard pigment is a buy me buy me color.......

Fresh collected orange looks like pastel orangey pink and you can't miss it as being different to the pink pigments you normally see. Trust me you will know it when you come across a nice orangey colored acro that isn't browned out.

Dom will have this looking spectacular once he's got the new tank humming

Remember this out of the water porn pic Dave took........ you're looking it the same acro - mustard.

 

[reefmutt]

I do think, however, that AF, knowing that their system requires the use of both micro E and coral energy, have made the concentration of copper so low that using both products at their full recommend dose will not add an excess of copper..
But I do agree that the idea of adding copper to a reef is a bit worrying..

 

[biggles]

You're probably right Matt, i just wish there was an easy to use and accurate copper test like the alk etc. If it was easily monitored i'd be a lot more adventurous with it. Bulent made a good point about the testing being flawed.

 

[reefmutt]

Because it's snail porn Matt, it's like watching paint not dry....... you have no idea how much i envy the good growth you have mate.

I wanted to show you the mustardy skin color that is a beautiful pinky/orange just coloring up. It's Dom's and it was very ugly and pale so was in the shade for three weeks before i saw PE at night. I was worried about this piece for a couple of weeks. If you see an acro with what looks like an almost mustard tone to the branch tissue you are looking at what we all refer to as orange. Just in case you wanted to get an idea of what to look out for in the poopy acro section of your LFS...... mustard pigment is a buy me buy me color.......

Fresh collected orange looks like pastel orangey pink and you can't miss it as being different to the pink pigments you normally see. Trust me you will know it when you come across a nice orangey colored acro that isn't browned out.

Dom will have this looking spectacular once he's got the new tank humming

Remember this out of the water porn pic Dave took........ you're looking it the same acro - mustard.

It seems to me- and maybe I'm wrong- that you do a considerable amount of tank rearranging. Moving corals, cutting, glueing, sand in sand out..
I just wonder if the corals haven't had enough time to sit, get comfortable and start growing..
Not to mention that I'd rather have your colours than my growth..

 

[mhucasey]

I do think, however, that AF, knowing that their system requires the use of both micro E and coral energy, have made the concentration of copper so low that using both products at their full recommend dose will not add an excess of copper..
But I do agree that the idea of adding copper to a reef is a bit worrying..

You aren't supposed to use Micro E with component 1,2,3 for that very reason. Micro E is actually one of the less used supplements, for example Debora does not use it.

 

[reefmutt]

Good point.
From what I understand the elements in micro E are contained in components 1/2/3, right?
Someone using a ca reactor wouldn't use the components...

 

[w3bbo]

That is how I understand it. Component 1/2/3 already has the micro elements.

Stunning coral coloration Andrew. I'd be interested to hear if you crack the 'my coral looks great but it isn't growing' conundrum.

 

[mhucasey]

Good point.
From what I understand the elements in micro E are contained in components 1/2/3, right?
Someone using a ca reactor wouldn't use the components...

Many other elements are in components 1,2,3. Micro-E is for replacing some of the metals that get bound or degraded quickly. I use a Calcium reactor, so the basic trace elements are replenished that way.

 

[slavetonet]

Because it's snail porn Matt, it's like watching paint not dry....... you have no idea how much i envy the good growth you have mate.

I wanted to show you the mustardy skin color that is a beautiful pinky/orange just coloring up. It's Dom's and it was very ugly and pale so was in the shade for three weeks before i saw PE at night. I was worried about this piece for a couple of weeks. If you see an acro with what looks like an almost mustard tone to the branch tissue you are looking at what we all refer to as orange. Just in case you wanted to get an idea of what to look out for in the poopy acro section of your LFS...... mustard pigment is a buy me buy me color.......

Fresh collected orange looks like pastel orangey pink and you can't miss it as being different to the pink pigments you normally see. Trust me you will know it when you come across a nice orangey colored acro that isn't browned out.

Dom will have this looking spectacular once he's got the new tank humming

Remember this out of the water porn pic Dave took........ you're looking it the same acro - mustard.

Looks like it is still the same shape as before. Pretty sure you have that piece about the same time I had mine - but it is no longer with me. :thumbdown

 

[Myka]

Micro E Mindy

Supplement contains concentrated heavy metals – manganese, vanadium, zinc, nickel, iron, chromium, cobalt & copper. Mixture of trace elements necessary for all marine organisms.

I'd like that cocktail with just the copper dropped out in a separate bottle. If the micro e isn't the copper dosing i think it is then why don't they put all the copper you need in the energy which is dosed regularly. Why split the copper into two separate products............:reading:

Hmmm, this is news to me! I know there is copper in the Coral E. So we're double dipping on the copper? Oh gasp! :celeb2:

Don't worry though Mindy, i'm the last person to point out EPIC goofs......... we'll keep it between you and i and Matt......:wave:

You bloody well better or I'll row my boat over there and whack you with a Montipora. :deadhorse: