mcgyvr
New member
yes I too do NOT drip acclimate as it can be a problem but to tie it to a death 3 months later is a stretch..
About to give up saltwater
- Thread starter Fabuis
- Start date
yes I too do NOT drip acclimate as it can be a problem but to tie it to a death 3 months later is a stretch..
homer1475
New member
No it really isn't a stretch.
It can and will kill either slowly, or several months down the road. I've seen several threads about it here, and have had it happen when I was a newbie.
It's kind of like garlic, its safe for a short time, but eventually it causes liver damage and eventually kills. Ammonia effects the gills, eventually causing the infected fish to not be able to breathe, slowly succumbing to the effects. Yes it can kill in months down the road and not instantly.
scooter31707
New member
I think you may have a illness/parasite in your tank. I would yet it go fallow for at least 72 days before adding anymore livestock. If you need to add some more inverts, this will be the time to do it now. Then go 72 days after you add the last invert.
madreefer2013
New member
Saltwater is unforgiving. Maybe go back to freshwater first. I tried 2x and failed. Im trying a 3rd time now.
homer1475
New member
The cure for Ich is the 72 day fallow period, but you did not describe little white bumps on the fish.
Or was there?........
Could laso be brook.... But that typically kills within 48 hours.
At this point I would really suggest a QT tank for all new incoming livestock. That way you are for certain its not something in your tank, or the fish coming in sick.
Or was there?........
Could laso be brook.... But that typically kills within 48 hours.
At this point I would really suggest a QT tank for all new incoming livestock. That way you are for certain its not something in your tank, or the fish coming in sick.
TangingOut
New member
Sounds like your clowns brought in a decease. Don't give up, it's really worth it in the end.
Also, I would down size your heaters. They're way too much and if your temp controller ever fails they'll cook your tank FAST.
Also, I would down size your heaters. They're way too much and if your temp controller ever fails they'll cook your tank FAST.
farfromsea
Active member
I think it is hard to say why the chromis died at this point since your parameters from that time we do not know. I think you have what seems like a decent setup but you just need some practice to get it started. I guess you bought an anemone yesterday? Most people suggest waiting until you are stable 6M or a year before doing that and I personally wouldn't define multiple dead fish as stable... You might just be setting yourself up for frustration.
Perhaps your LFS offers a weekly tank service? You seem to still be interested in the hobby. Maybe you can use their service and get your tank sorted our, watch what they do and then takeover and do it yourself.
If you really think your clownfish had ich then leave the tank without fish for 72 days and then try again. Shrimp are still fun to watch and feed
Perhaps your LFS offers a weekly tank service? You seem to still be interested in the hobby. Maybe you can use their service and get your tank sorted our, watch what they do and then takeover and do it yourself.
If you really think your clownfish had ich then leave the tank without fish for 72 days and then try again. Shrimp are still fun to watch and feed
Scarface8
New member
Everything seems ok, if it's not a parasite, do you see any wierd marks on your fish after death? Could be a spearing type mantis shrimp?
Maybe one or more of your test kits are bad? For example your ammonia test kit?
I'd try a salifert test kit, don't use those API ones
For that little extra coin you get something so much more accurate
If all else fails I'd do the 72 day thing the other guys are talking about, just my 2 cents
Maybe one or more of your test kits are bad? For example your ammonia test kit?
I'd try a salifert test kit, don't use those API ones
For that little extra coin you get something so much more accurate
If all else fails I'd do the 72 day thing the other guys are talking about, just my 2 cents
CrayolaViolence
New member
On ammonia: I don't know either way if ammonia can kill that far down the road, but unless there were necropsies done on the fish to confirm cause of death, I think it's unwise to blame ammonia from days, weeks, months prior.
Disease: Inverts can and will bring in contaminated water. Hermits can keep water in their shells for DAYS, and survive out of water for that long at least. The same with some snails. So if the inverts were introduced at the time of the fish, it's a good possibility disease is the issue. The fact on disease is, most of the time we cannot see, externally, whether it's present or not. Again, necropsies, microscope slides, etc are the only way to confirm and simply not feasible for most.
Now, having said that, I will say, I would not give up. First, you have a very, very challenging size tank. Small is by no means easy. If anything it increases the challenge ten fold. Personally I think you're starter tank is too small. But that's just my opinion. I'd go with a 75 gallon as a start. Or if you only want small, include a sump that increases your water volume by 1x-1.5 times. (Sorry can't recall if you said you had one.)
Live rock: Not sure what kind of live rock you have or where you acquired it, but it's not all created equal. I have a personal bias for natural live rock. Yes I'm aware of the environmental impact but man cannot re-create in hours what it took nature millions of years to form. Good live rock can make or break a tank, in my experience. I had a lot of issues until I figured this out.
Fish: I know people say fish are where one should start. Personally, I think fish are a HECK of A LOT harder than people give credit for. WAY harder than a lot of corals. With corals you need a good light and good parameters. Corals are forgiving. They start to go south you have time to correct a problem. Half dead corals will grow back. That's something fish cannot do (unless you have one of those rare alien eBay fish). You're doing well with the inverts. Inverts are not easy. The one thing they have fish don't is they are disease resistant to what kills fish. I agree with what others have suggested. I think you have something in your tank that's managed to escape detection. Let it sit fallow, do some easy corals, like leathers, gorgonians, sponges, etc. Enjoy them, then start with fish in about 3-4 months. I'm not familiar with the light you have, but an inexpensive 4 bulb T5 would probably make success with corals much easier (as well as your BTA--they need good light). I've tried expensive LEDs myself, and I've not had good luck with them. When I went to cheap, simple T5 my corals took off like gang busters. I'll stick with those, although LEDs are pretty for the color glow.
I hope you don't give up. I mean, if you love the prospect of saltwater, i think you're cutting yourself short. We all fail at some point, at something. Failure is hard but it makes success sweet. I hope you don't throw in the towel just yet.
Take care and good luck.
Disease: Inverts can and will bring in contaminated water. Hermits can keep water in their shells for DAYS, and survive out of water for that long at least. The same with some snails. So if the inverts were introduced at the time of the fish, it's a good possibility disease is the issue. The fact on disease is, most of the time we cannot see, externally, whether it's present or not. Again, necropsies, microscope slides, etc are the only way to confirm and simply not feasible for most.
Now, having said that, I will say, I would not give up. First, you have a very, very challenging size tank. Small is by no means easy. If anything it increases the challenge ten fold. Personally I think you're starter tank is too small. But that's just my opinion. I'd go with a 75 gallon as a start. Or if you only want small, include a sump that increases your water volume by 1x-1.5 times. (Sorry can't recall if you said you had one.)
Live rock: Not sure what kind of live rock you have or where you acquired it, but it's not all created equal. I have a personal bias for natural live rock. Yes I'm aware of the environmental impact but man cannot re-create in hours what it took nature millions of years to form. Good live rock can make or break a tank, in my experience. I had a lot of issues until I figured this out.
Fish: I know people say fish are where one should start. Personally, I think fish are a HECK of A LOT harder than people give credit for. WAY harder than a lot of corals. With corals you need a good light and good parameters. Corals are forgiving. They start to go south you have time to correct a problem. Half dead corals will grow back. That's something fish cannot do (unless you have one of those rare alien eBay fish). You're doing well with the inverts. Inverts are not easy. The one thing they have fish don't is they are disease resistant to what kills fish. I agree with what others have suggested. I think you have something in your tank that's managed to escape detection. Let it sit fallow, do some easy corals, like leathers, gorgonians, sponges, etc. Enjoy them, then start with fish in about 3-4 months. I'm not familiar with the light you have, but an inexpensive 4 bulb T5 would probably make success with corals much easier (as well as your BTA--they need good light). I've tried expensive LEDs myself, and I've not had good luck with them. When I went to cheap, simple T5 my corals took off like gang busters. I'll stick with those, although LEDs are pretty for the color glow.
I hope you don't give up. I mean, if you love the prospect of saltwater, i think you're cutting yourself short. We all fail at some point, at something. Failure is hard but it makes success sweet. I hope you don't throw in the towel just yet.
Take care and good luck.
ericarenee
New member
Where are you buying your live stock
Are you using RO/DI water or tap water.
how old is your ro/di system...
what is the TDS Before and after you make water
Do you know if you have chlorine or clorimines in your water which ones.
How often and how much water changed do you do..
I suspect its not the same issue each time something dies.. You could be having a bad run of luck coming from more then one newbie mistake..
i suspect this because the clowns lasted so long.
Also Check for stray Voltage in the tank .
You can keep chipping away at whats NOT killing your fish or just give up.
please do not give up..
Erica
Are you using RO/DI water or tap water.
how old is your ro/di system...
what is the TDS Before and after you make water
Do you know if you have chlorine or clorimines in your water which ones.
How often and how much water changed do you do..
I suspect its not the same issue each time something dies.. You could be having a bad run of luck coming from more then one newbie mistake..
i suspect this because the clowns lasted so long.
Also Check for stray Voltage in the tank .
You can keep chipping away at whats NOT killing your fish or just give up.
please do not give up..
Erica
CrayolaViolence
New member
Another thought on ammonia:
I'm not sure where or why anyone would think an hour in a bag or bucket is too long. Every single fish that comes into a LFS has to travel in a plastic bag for upwards of 48 hours. When fish come from over seas (and I'd say 98% of the ones in any store do) they are shipped in a box that is roughly 20 inches-24 inches deep and 27-36 inches in length, and about half that in width. When they arrive in the US, they must then be checked out by customs (or whoever it is that checks imports) and that can take upwards of another 8 hours. Most reputable shippers will re-ox and put in fresh water at this time. HOWEVER, you have to realize as many as 200 fish are packed in a single box. Yes. TWO HUNDRED. Average number, is 24, less if the fish are large. Still, even if re-oxing is done, the fish has been bagged for a minimum of 24 hours by this time in an amount of water that would make the average fish lover CRINGE. Then after it leaves the warehouse it is sent on the next leg of its journey.
So before the fish ever reaches the local fish store it has been bagged for many, many, many hours (as long as 72 hours if there are delays). If ammonia poisoning were that detrimental then none of those fish would survive. I'm not saying it's not deadly, I just don't think we realize how resilient most fish are. Some fish need even less water and those are the ones that can travel 200 to a box. Fish like powered browns or blue tangs need LOTS of water and have as few as 10 fish in a single box (this is why they cost so much too, once import fees are added they become very expensive).
And if you ever order a fish online it spends a minimum of 12 hours in a bag. Granted since it's traveling locally it can be shipped in a larger bag with a greater water volume but still.
This is why I have a healthy amount of skepticism when people say a fish cannot be acclimated in a bag for more than 30 minutes or that a fish will get ammonia poisoning in an hour inside a bucket. I'm not saying they can't, I'm just saying its a lot less of a risk than I think we realize.
I'm not sure where or why anyone would think an hour in a bag or bucket is too long. Every single fish that comes into a LFS has to travel in a plastic bag for upwards of 48 hours. When fish come from over seas (and I'd say 98% of the ones in any store do) they are shipped in a box that is roughly 20 inches-24 inches deep and 27-36 inches in length, and about half that in width. When they arrive in the US, they must then be checked out by customs (or whoever it is that checks imports) and that can take upwards of another 8 hours. Most reputable shippers will re-ox and put in fresh water at this time. HOWEVER, you have to realize as many as 200 fish are packed in a single box. Yes. TWO HUNDRED. Average number, is 24, less if the fish are large. Still, even if re-oxing is done, the fish has been bagged for a minimum of 24 hours by this time in an amount of water that would make the average fish lover CRINGE. Then after it leaves the warehouse it is sent on the next leg of its journey.
So before the fish ever reaches the local fish store it has been bagged for many, many, many hours (as long as 72 hours if there are delays). If ammonia poisoning were that detrimental then none of those fish would survive. I'm not saying it's not deadly, I just don't think we realize how resilient most fish are. Some fish need even less water and those are the ones that can travel 200 to a box. Fish like powered browns or blue tangs need LOTS of water and have as few as 10 fish in a single box (this is why they cost so much too, once import fees are added they become very expensive).
And if you ever order a fish online it spends a minimum of 12 hours in a bag. Granted since it's traveling locally it can be shipped in a larger bag with a greater water volume but still.
This is why I have a healthy amount of skepticism when people say a fish cannot be acclimated in a bag for more than 30 minutes or that a fish will get ammonia poisoning in an hour inside a bucket. I'm not saying they can't, I'm just saying its a lot less of a risk than I think we realize.
BigDave
Premium Member
Direct from reefcleaners website about the acclimation process:
<<<<
During the shipping process, ammonia levels in the shipping bags build, while the ph level goes down. As the ph goes down the toxicity of ammonia also goes down. However, when your tank water with normal ph is introduced to the shipping bags, and the ph rises, so does the toxicity of the ammonia, and you will be poisoning the livestock.
>>>>>
<<<<
During the shipping process, ammonia levels in the shipping bags build, while the ph level goes down. As the ph goes down the toxicity of ammonia also goes down. However, when your tank water with normal ph is introduced to the shipping bags, and the ph rises, so does the toxicity of the ammonia, and you will be poisoning the livestock.
>>>>>
