AC unit vs Tank Chiller

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9639131#post9639131 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReefArtist
Hey checkinhawk - glad you have the $ for both :D. Not only up front but for the long haul! I don't mind my tank being 84. I'm just looking for the most efficient way to do it and don't want nor need to over kill the cooling. Just the most efficient for the long run.

lolol im not rich by any means :)
IMO the chiller is the best route for you.you can run it at 82-83ish and it probably wont run so much.the little 1/10hp chiller i have doesnt run too much and mine is set at 80.
 
I think the smallest I should go with Tank, sump, refuge, frag tank and QT is 1/4 hp. I'm figuring on about 1K for a good one - if I really need it.

I know what you mean checkinhawk - LOL. I'm thinking (I'm going to contact Melev) about going with a good sized AC unit and seeing how that goes at first. I want to keep my $ for a good protein skimmer, lighting etc first and that's the reason I don't want to do both right up front. I've never used a wall unit and really don't know how will they work. Are they efficient? The room is only 75 sq feet so cooling it shouldn't be to much. With the water in the heat of the summer and the room not cooled I'd think as Triggerfish said - the chiller would have to work a lot harder to keep up. Another reason I'd have to over size a chiller.
 
new wall units are efficient,but are ment to cool air not water.it will work alot harder and run more than nornal trying to keep up with the tank.this is why i figured both a chiller and ac would be best and most energy efficient use of the products,but it would cost you upfront.carol the specs on that 1/3hp say it will cool 360g 10 degrees.
 
The cost is not only up front. It would be long term of running both the chiller and the wall unit, not really something I want to do or pay. The specs from vendors are “warm fussy” at best and a 1/3hp chiller would maybe work but only if I used an AC wall unit. I was originally planning on going with a chiller and it was not going to be any smaller than 1/2hp and the most efficient would be to over size and go with 3/4. Doing this will ensure good efficiency and longevity of the equipment. This is my dream tank and my last upgrade. I’m not skimping on the equipment just trying to get the best and most efficient at a price I can afford initially and long term.
I'm looking at a tank that is 280 after putting all the other water together it will definitely be over 360. My sump alone is going to be 90g. One thing I've learned in this hobby is to always oversize your equipment. If the vendor flyer indicates 360g, add another 50 - 100g to that then you’re in the middle. Look at the protein skimmers; I've never understood those numbers. If you go with the lower end vendors then you need to at least double it. JMO and what I have learned - the hard way.
I sent an email to Marc (Melev) and asked about how happy he is about his use of the AC unit for his fish room. If you look at his average tank temps, I’d say he is very happy. His temps have been very stable and he’s not using anything but a wall unit that is rated 8000btu.
I think the main part of the fish room build is the installation that I use. It’s going to require very heavy installation and sound proofing so if I did go with a AC unit this is all going to really help.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9636005#post9636005 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReefArtist
Looks like he has a new passion - sandals and flip flops? LOL - I'll have to take a search engine look for it.

:lol:
 
Dont forget to insulate the ceiling space over the garage, it will make a huge difference in the garage temp. For a couple hundred bucks you can get the whole garage ceiling insulated.
 
I see you live in Largo - I do also. You'll have to come over when I get started and see how things go. It's going to be a fun and very large project. It's going to be built into the wall with cabinets under and book shelves on both sides. My house will be a mess for a few months - but it will be worth it.

Will do. Just let me know when. You are also welcome to mine. I hope to make the move by the 14th of this month. If I could only get my honey-do list to stop growing!!!!
 
Sailor_Jon, what type of insulation are you talking about. That is on my list and also really insulate the fish room area. Right now I can see the wood - no instulation at all in the garage area. Don't we need something like R13 or is it R30 - I don't remember now. I guess I'd better get my list updated :bigeyes:.

plc001 - wow, I didn't think you were going to do it this fast. If you need any help just give me a PM. I'm available most of the time.
 
Okay, I'm all caught up. A few things:

If you can't spell my username or my website name, you'll never find me. :D <b>m e l e v</b> - (Google that, baby!)

Running your home A/C into the fishroom is bad for the central system. The fish room will be hotter than the rest of the house due to lighting, ballasts, humidity, etc. If you put the thermostat in the fishroom, the rest of your home would be icy cold as the central a/c tried to bring the fishroom to a nice 74F (or whatever you set it to). When the a/c is off, the moist air will flow backwards through the ducting and the salt will corrode the coils, mold can grow, and other return vents will rust. To put it simply, don't do it. There is a bunch of information for several pages in my 280g thread (part 1) because we discussed it throughly.

Regarding this room, the cubic feet is what you need to know. 5 x 15 x 8? is how you figure out how many BTUs you need. My room is 6 x 7 x 8, and 8000 BTUs was plenty. Last month (after over 2 years), I finally installed a vent fan in the ceiling to pull out heat and humidity. It runs silently (1.3 sones) and uses 77w of power. What a bargain! Broan (Model # QTRGN110) It is venting out of the room via one of the Whirly Bird roof vents.

vent4.jpg


The new A/C unit only uses 600w of power, which I'm very happy about. This is from my Reef Log:
<i>The other project was even more pressing. For some reason, the 2.5 yr old G.E. 8000 BTU a/c unit decided to blink 'E-1' at me. This is an error code, and the unit wouldn't turn on or do anything. I called G.E. for repair, but the cost was just going to be too much for a unit that originally cost $142. I tried to return it to the store, but they didn't want it either, so I shopped for a new one. I found a Samsung 8000 BTU unit for $167 with a 5 year warranty. What really makes me happy with the new one is the energy savings. The old unit used 800w of power, and was SEER rated at 9.8. The new one is rated at 10.8 and uses 600w of power. I had to modify the hole in the wall (you may have seen the hole in one of the pictures above) to accomodate the new size, as they never are built to the same dimensions.</i>

window_unit.jpg


What I would suggest is figuring out how many BTU you'll need (maybe 10,000). The walls of the fishroom should be insulated. I used the normal inwall stuff from Owens Corning (with the Pink Panther on it) from Home Depot. Once you find the BTU size, start checking every window unit for amperage used. The Samsung was the best bargain from the four stores I visited, and I purchased it at Home Depot. Considering what chillers cost, I'm still ahead of the game financially.

One more thing you need to know. My system works well, and is cheaper than running a chiller plus I can be comfortable in the fish room year round. However, in the off months, I do open the door to the garage area to let fresh cool air blow through any time possible. Fresh air is good for the system, and I don't pay for extra electricity when it is avoidable. For the past month or more, I've been using IceCap fans to blow across the tank, mainly for about 10 to 15 hours a day. I just turn them on or off based on the tank's current temperature. If you aren't going to be there to check tank temps, running the a/c unit will keep things steady. When being cheap (fresh air and fans), you have to be alert. ;) I just bought a wireless Pinpoint thermometer so I can keep my eye on the tank temp at my computer.

In the summer months, the fishroom is sealed tight and the a/c is set to 79F. My reef doesn't get over 81.5F usually. My house can be 72F or 80F and the reef is unaffected since the fishroom temperature determines the tank temp. You may need to set it to 76-78F based on current humidity conditions. It is my hope that the new vent fan will allow the a/c unit to work a little less hard now, and reduce the moisture content that happens in the fishroom at night. I won't know the answer to that for a few months though.
 
As always Marc - very detailed and full of future ideas. Excellent information and the kind I like - you worked out all the kinks :D. To me it only made sense that we could control our tank temps within an enclosed room, even more efficiently then we do now within our houses. Regardless if its air or water, once the temp is reached it just needs to be maintained. This is the information I was looking to get - setup that is utilizes my ideas on an efficient (Cost savings) system. Thank you also for answering my next question about venting. I knew I had to have the some type of ventilation system but wasn't sure if the typical bathroom vents would work. Since you just installed the ventilation system you'll have it broken in before I'm ready to install. I'll be looking for updates on your web site to see how this is going.

Thanks again - you just saved me about 1K!
 
plc001 - I guess you know which way I'm going. With the tank and equipment in the garage the most efficient way to keep my water and equipment cool is a well instalated fish room with a AC unit. I'm not completely set on the size of the fish room yet but most likely I'm thinking I'll need around a 12000 btu AC unit. Now I'll need to look you some ventalation systems.
 
You may decide down the road that you want a chiller as a backup. For me, a good backup is a second window a/c (cheaper on the wallet). If the room temperature is steady and the tank doesn't get too warm, the chiller only cycles on when the tank gets really hot. I doubt I'll ever do it unless I'm just away from the tank so much that I have to rely on one to keep things stable.

The old window a/c unit is still in the back of my vehicle as I'm going to see if it can be repaired. If it isn't a big expense, I'll get it fixed and wrap it up until it is needed. If it does cost a lot, it might be easier to just buy a second Samsung a/c and keep it boxed up until the day that I need it. The benefit of this is if the stores are closed when I need a new one and because they are both identical dimensions.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9651561#post9651561 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReefArtist
plc001 - I guess you know which way I'm going. With the tank and equipment in the garage the most efficient way to keep my water and equipment cool is a well instalated fish room with a AC unit. I'm not completely set on the size of the fish room yet but most likely I'm thinking I'll need around a 12000 btu AC unit. Now I'll need to look you some ventalation systems.

Well, sounds like I may have to go with a A/C window unit also.
Since my fish closet is only about 192 cubit feet, how many btu would I need.

Urgg, I really hate the idea of having to add an a/c unit.
 
So do I, but the alternative is at least 1,000$ more and I would still have problems controlling my water temps. This I think is a great way to start and if it doesn't work, later down the road I then can then add a chiller. I really don't think it's going to be necessary. I have the luxury at this time to make sure the fish room is very insulated, good ventilation and the humidity is controlled.

Now I can spend that extra I thought I was saving on some type of power backup system! I just spent from 8:15 to 11:00 without power to my house! FL progress is so unreliable that I really don't have an alternative but to purchase one. My power goes out for 5 seconds to hours every week at least once - they must not be able to figure out what is wrong or something (Can't be bothered).
 
Here's a little information for you looks like you would only need a 6K unit - you can get those cheap!

Area To Be Cooled
(square feet) Capacity Needed (Btu's per hour)
100 to 150 5,000
150 to 250 6,000
250 to 300 7,000
300 to 350 8,000
350 to 400 9,000
400 to 450 10,000
450 to 550 12,000
500 to 700 14,000
700 to 1,000 18,000
 
I just found a Samsung model AW129CB for 250.00 and it's for a 650 sq ft room. My room with be around 450 - 500 (11L x 8H x 5D+) sounds like it would work. This one is located at lowes.
 
melev, That's a real good idea about the backup. Of course only if the cost of repair isn't much but I have a feeling that isn't going to be the case (Just a realist - not trying to be pessimist). That is a great idea about the backup. Remember with electronics - it is better they be used and not just sit on a shelf. Just something to keep in mine, as I'm not sure if that is true for AC units.
 
I have a generator for the time when power is out. What I've been thinking about is to run some temporary outlets in key areas of my home. Then if there is a power outage, fire up the generator and plug in the special cord/connection that will activate those outlets. The rest of the time they would be dead since they aren't part of the home's wiring/breaker system. I could plug in what I need, and then when power resumes, move the plugs back to their normal locaiton.

That way I don't have to have extension cords going everywhere, nor doors propped open (if it is really cold or really hot that day). I'm also thinking about making an insulated brick enclosure to put the generator in so that I don't have to worry about it being stolen and for it to muffle the sound significantly. If I could get temporary power without drawing much attention to the generator, that would be ideal. ;)

I hear you on that backup a/c unit. If I don't need it for 2+ years, there is no guarantee it will work. I just hate not having something ready as an alternative. Hopefully this old one can be repaired for $75 or less.

plc001 - I still think you can get some fans to force cool air from the living area into the fishroom, and a stronger vent fan in the ceiliing to pull out heat and humidity. The room is very small, and fans are usually a great way to cool down a tank cheaply. If you do opt to use an a/c unit, refer to that PM I sent you a few minutes ago.
 
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