Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
No, its a split thread. That's a mod account. go back to the 1st post and there is a link for the prior split, which is the 2nd split (this is the 3rd). "Acrylicman" is the OP. He's not active anymore.
Acrylic fabrication questions? I can help!
- Thread starter JohnL
- Start date
saintsnsinners
New member
I built a 40g breeder with 1/2" that was cnc cut, used Weldon 3. Used the pin method and still got bubbles. It has been up for over a year without any problems but the bubbles are obviously ugly. I want to build another tank and was wondering If Weldon 40 is better for a bubble-less result?
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
I would not recommend WO40 just for the purpose of trying to get bubble free seams. I would just refine your technique. CNC cut doesn't necessarily mean well cut. I have a lot of stuff CNCd but I have a place that has worked with me to make sure the edges are acceptable. This means a large bit at maximum speed and plaing with forward speed.
I had many parts cut that had bad chatter marks, for what I was making it didn't make a huge difference, but I was able to determine that they were using a 3/16" bit instead of 1/4", their forward speed was too high, and they were running the router at 18,000 RPM instead of 26,000 (maximum). That fixed pretty much ever edge problem. I also had them purchase a 1/4" bit for only cutting my stuff, one batch had a line on the parts and they found the bit was chipped.
If they won't work with you, then run the parts through a jointer to clean them up (just use the CNC to make nice square pieces)
Then make sure you are doing things like:
- cleaning bonding surfaces with denatured alcohol
- blowing off all particles with compressed air
- blowing out joints with canned air right before applying solvent
- set up joints on MDF with camper shell foam to make joint tight
- use shims to shore up any gaps before adding pins (ensures that once pins are pulled, joint is tight)
- set up joints with a lip to be trimmed off after curing with a flush trim bit (allows for a fillet on both sides of joint)
- pull pins after 15-20 seconds of soak (that's all you really need)
I had many parts cut that had bad chatter marks, for what I was making it didn't make a huge difference, but I was able to determine that they were using a 3/16" bit instead of 1/4", their forward speed was too high, and they were running the router at 18,000 RPM instead of 26,000 (maximum). That fixed pretty much ever edge problem. I also had them purchase a 1/4" bit for only cutting my stuff, one batch had a line on the parts and they found the bit was chipped.
If they won't work with you, then run the parts through a jointer to clean them up (just use the CNC to make nice square pieces)
Then make sure you are doing things like:
- cleaning bonding surfaces with denatured alcohol
- blowing off all particles with compressed air
- blowing out joints with canned air right before applying solvent
- set up joints on MDF with camper shell foam to make joint tight
- use shims to shore up any gaps before adding pins (ensures that once pins are pulled, joint is tight)
- set up joints with a lip to be trimmed off after curing with a flush trim bit (allows for a fillet on both sides of joint)
- pull pins after 15-20 seconds of soak (that's all you really need)
Hello, Please excuse me if some of my questions are repetitive. After reading about 20 pages, my eyes started doing funny stuff and now I can't see straight LOL.
I plan on building a 72"x36"x24"h tank. I plan on using 3/4" acrylic for the front, back and sides and 1/2" acrylic (all cell cast) for the top and bottom. It will be placed on a steel stand, which will have a 3/4" plywood on top.
I plan on glueing the pieces with weld on #4. The pieces will be CNC routered. I will also build an overflow that is in the center out of 1/2" acrylic as well.
Questions:
1) Are all my specs good, or should I change something?
2) how long should I wait before putting water in the tank?
3)I plan on making the lowest profile overflow possible with 2 1.5" pipes and returns, what do you think is the safest distance between each hole I drill if that makes a difference?
I've never done a diy and i could get this whole tank built for about $750, so I'm willing to give it a shot. I'm very nervous about coming home one day and finding all the water on the floor LOL. I guess what I'm asking is if what i'm doing is good enough, or maybe a bit risky.
Thanks in advance for the help.
I plan on building a 72"x36"x24"h tank. I plan on using 3/4" acrylic for the front, back and sides and 1/2" acrylic (all cell cast) for the top and bottom. It will be placed on a steel stand, which will have a 3/4" plywood on top.
I plan on glueing the pieces with weld on #4. The pieces will be CNC routered. I will also build an overflow that is in the center out of 1/2" acrylic as well.
Questions:
1) Are all my specs good, or should I change something?
2) how long should I wait before putting water in the tank?
3)I plan on making the lowest profile overflow possible with 2 1.5" pipes and returns, what do you think is the safest distance between each hole I drill if that makes a difference?
I've never done a diy and i could get this whole tank built for about $750, so I'm willing to give it a shot. I'm very nervous about coming home one day and finding all the water on the floor LOL. I guess what I'm asking is if what i'm doing is good enough, or maybe a bit risky.
Thanks in advance for the help.
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
I would start out with a smaller build and practive edge prep technique, pins method, joint prep, etc before jumping into a large build. While it is true you can save $$ by doing it yourself, you can easily waste money by screwing up one joint.
CNC cut edges on 3/4" material is art. Unless your guy does that for tank for a living, I wouldn't trust it. I have a trusted CNC guy whom I have given material as thick as 1/2" and it comes out very nice. But when you get into thicker material, larger (and much more expensive) diameter bits are in order, feed rates and rotational bit speed become critical, multiple passes to shave off hair-thin material for final edge prep are needed to avoid pitting, etc. This can be done but like I said - you're into a realm where most CNC guys do not get into.
Having the CNC guy cut the pieces perfectly square (especially the ends) is where the value comes in, because that is increasingly difficult with larger pieces. Then you can run the pieces through a jointer to take 1/64" off at a time until the edge is clean.
Remember the only edges you need to be as perfect as possible for edge prep are all 4 sides of the ends and the top and bottom edges of the front and back. The ends of the f/b will get flush trimmed, as will all edges of the top and bottom. So have the CNC cut them with an extra 1/16" of material on each side you are going to hit with the jointer, and an extra 1/8" on all other edges for flush trimming.
CNC is awesome for the euro.
Your material choice is accurate. You will have nearly zero deflection.
For the euro, 3" perimeter and a 6" cross brace at 24" and 48" should do nice. Interior corners should be 2"-3" radius.
Feel free to work it up on sketchup and post. helps to have another eye on it
CNC cut edges on 3/4" material is art. Unless your guy does that for tank for a living, I wouldn't trust it. I have a trusted CNC guy whom I have given material as thick as 1/2" and it comes out very nice. But when you get into thicker material, larger (and much more expensive) diameter bits are in order, feed rates and rotational bit speed become critical, multiple passes to shave off hair-thin material for final edge prep are needed to avoid pitting, etc. This can be done but like I said - you're into a realm where most CNC guys do not get into.
Having the CNC guy cut the pieces perfectly square (especially the ends) is where the value comes in, because that is increasingly difficult with larger pieces. Then you can run the pieces through a jointer to take 1/64" off at a time until the edge is clean.
Remember the only edges you need to be as perfect as possible for edge prep are all 4 sides of the ends and the top and bottom edges of the front and back. The ends of the f/b will get flush trimmed, as will all edges of the top and bottom. So have the CNC cut them with an extra 1/16" of material on each side you are going to hit with the jointer, and an extra 1/8" on all other edges for flush trimming.
CNC is awesome for the euro.
Your material choice is accurate. You will have nearly zero deflection.
For the euro, 3" perimeter and a 6" cross brace at 24" and 48" should do nice. Interior corners should be 2"-3" radius.
Feel free to work it up on sketchup and post. helps to have another eye on it
reefermad619
New member
Hey guys. I plan on having a friend build an ato reservoir and had some Qs on materials and thickness. The reseviour will 60"L x 9"W x 23"H. I want it to be a 6 sided box with a 2" square hol cute on top left corner to get water in and out. I was planning on 3/8" polycast. What weld on would you recommend? And does the thickness and material sound right? My builder wants to use acrilyte acrylic and weld-on 4 and 16. Thanks for the help everyone.
dattack
Active member
if he needs to use weldon16, i am not sure if that would be a professional job. 3/8" would be ok for a reservoir if solvent welded correctly.
Floyd R Turbo, thanks so much for the detailed info!
The CNC router operator will be me. I just bought one, so the number of passes will be no issue, as I could do 10 passes if I want, but I didn't think about the router bit depth. I'd have to check. I'll try and work on the design for the top and show it to you. What about the distance between bulkhead to bulkhead? What do you think would be a safe amount 2-3" from each hole?
Thanks again for the detailed advice!
The CNC router operator will be me. I just bought one, so the number of passes will be no issue, as I could do 10 passes if I want, but I didn't think about the router bit depth. I'd have to check. I'll try and work on the design for the top and show it to you. What about the distance between bulkhead to bulkhead? What do you think would be a safe amount 2-3" from each hole?
Thanks again for the detailed advice!
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
the router table my CNC guy uses is 5' x 10' and cost over $100,000....is yours that big? if not, then you end up moving the sheet around to make a continuous edge, that can cause secondary issues. Just curious...making sure you are aware of possible problems
distance between bulkheads really only matters when they are on the back or bottom. Generally you want holes to be separated by 2 diameters, but you can go closer in a pinch.
While you're still on the design stage consider doing an internal/external "beananimal" overflow....
distance between bulkheads really only matters when they are on the back or bottom. Generally you want holes to be separated by 2 diameters, but you can go closer in a pinch.
While you're still on the design stage consider doing an internal/external "beananimal" overflow....
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
1) polycast on an ATO? Only if you get some scrap cheap, that stuff is expensive. You could go with domestic extruded for an ATO. Acrylic FF or Plex GM. Or better yet, PMACS (arkema generic cell cast).
2) 3/8" is good
3) weld-on 16 is total junk for tank construction - has limited use. weldon 4, yes. the only need for 16 would be if your joints were inferior and you had to follow up on them with 16, which is a red flag in the first place
4) I would not seal the top completely with such a small opening. Just thinking of if you ever needed to clean the ATO or get inside. But also for ventilation purposes when building the tank. after assembling the walls, you put the top on, then the bottom. The top usually has the euro cut out of it so that it won't sag and push the walls out when setting up the bottom joint, but also allows for ventilation when appling the solvent. So you might still consider cutting out a larger opening for several reasons
The one I have is slightly larger than 4'x8', but only cost $60k LOL. I'm pretty sure of it's capabilities, but have considered the fact that I'd want it to do a cut all around each piece to achieve perfect alignment, so I may have to bring the size of everything down a 1/4" or so. It all depends on if the sheets arrive at a perfect 4'x8'.
I'll look into the overflow, thanks!
Btw, the acrylic company my supplier can get me is ChemCast. They good/bad?
Happy Turkey Day!
I'll look into the overflow, thanks!
Btw, the acrylic company my supplier can get me is ChemCast. They good/bad?
Happy Turkey Day!
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
dunno if chemcast has fixed their problems or not. google it and you'll find many stories about a company that was using their product and building really low priced tanks until they all started falling apart 6 months down the road and the company went under. Since then Chemcast is not recommended. Polycast, Plexiglas-G, and Acrylite GP in that order. Acrylite GP under 1" is now made in China however and the product is more like Reynolds according to the Cyro guy I spoke with. most just stick to Plex-G anymore.
look up Laird plastics, port plastics, sabic polymershapes. find someone who carries at least Plex-G for you for a display tank.
only $60k huh? LOL. Does it have a strong suction table?
sheets will always be over 48x96 maybe by 1/4"
my CNC guy has a device that he clips on to the raw sheet and performs a calibration step prior to the cutting step like setting a baseline. some kind of set of magnets that he uses to establish a 0,0 point. There should be some way to calibrate things instead of having to square things up and then work from there. because what happens if you move the sheet, you have to start over?
look up Laird plastics, port plastics, sabic polymershapes. find someone who carries at least Plex-G for you for a display tank.
only $60k huh? LOL. Does it have a strong suction table?
sheets will always be over 48x96 maybe by 1/4"
my CNC guy has a device that he clips on to the raw sheet and performs a calibration step prior to the cutting step like setting a baseline. some kind of set of magnets that he uses to establish a 0,0 point. There should be some way to calibrate things instead of having to square things up and then work from there. because what happens if you move the sheet, you have to start over?
reefermad619
New member
Thanks for the feedback. Decided not to go with my dude after all. Cheaper, and I feel safer going glass. Thanks again guys.
Sorry for the late reply and thanks for the awesome info. I'm so happy I mentioned Chemcast to you, or else I would have started building by now! You probably saved my a**. Thanks!
As for the router table, so far so good. I had a scrap 1/2" laying around and tried cutting it....2 passes and the piece looks perfect. The vacuum is strong, and squaring it is fairly simple. I'm now confident with this. My suppliers were giving me a good price on Chemcast, so i have to do the research into the other brands, and hopefully their prices are not too much. If it gets real high, I may just go with a custom glass tank. For some reason, I have so much more confidence in glass than acrylic.
As for the router table, so far so good. I had a scrap 1/2" laying around and tried cutting it....2 passes and the piece looks perfect. The vacuum is strong, and squaring it is fairly simple. I'm now confident with this. My suppliers were giving me a good price on Chemcast, so i have to do the research into the other brands, and hopefully their prices are not too much. If it gets real high, I may just go with a custom glass tank. For some reason, I have so much more confidence in glass than acrylic.
Need some advice on new tank seams
Need some advice on new tank seams
I just picked up my new acrylic tank and noticed some bubbling in the corners of the top and bottom and wanted to get some opinions on structural integrity. The tank is 72" by 32" by 24". 3/4" was used on the sides with 1/2" on the top and bottom.
each pic is of a different corner. The vertical seams look almost pretty good however the corners for the top and bottom have bubbles. I was told and can see where #16 was added on the interior seams.
Is this tank going to hold???
Some pics of the different corners:
Top front left:
<a href="http://s613.photobucket.com/user/stiffljp/media/20131207_204420_zps2b7bffae.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt215/stiffljp/20131207_204420_zps2b7bffae.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 20131207_204420_zps2b7bffae.jpg"/></a>
Top back Right:
<a href="http://s613.photobucket.com/user/stiffljp/media/20131207_204411_zps33abd39f.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt215/stiffljp/20131207_204411_zps33abd39f.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 20131207_204411_zps33abd39f.jpg"/></a>
Left:
<a href="http://s613.photobucket.com/user/stiffljp/media/20131207_204315_zpsb50b70d9.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt215/stiffljp/20131207_204315_zpsb50b70d9.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 20131207_204315_zpsb50b70d9.jpg"/></a>
Bottom front left:
<a href="http://s613.photobucket.com/user/stiffljp/media/20131207_204307_zpsa1388927.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt215/stiffljp/20131207_204307_zpsa1388927.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 20131207_204307_zpsa1388927.jpg"/></a>
Need some advice on new tank seams
I just picked up my new acrylic tank and noticed some bubbling in the corners of the top and bottom and wanted to get some opinions on structural integrity. The tank is 72" by 32" by 24". 3/4" was used on the sides with 1/2" on the top and bottom.
each pic is of a different corner. The vertical seams look almost pretty good however the corners for the top and bottom have bubbles. I was told and can see where #16 was added on the interior seams.
Is this tank going to hold???
Some pics of the different corners:
Top front left:
<a href="http://s613.photobucket.com/user/stiffljp/media/20131207_204420_zps2b7bffae.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt215/stiffljp/20131207_204420_zps2b7bffae.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 20131207_204420_zps2b7bffae.jpg"/></a>
Top back Right:
<a href="http://s613.photobucket.com/user/stiffljp/media/20131207_204411_zps33abd39f.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt215/stiffljp/20131207_204411_zps33abd39f.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 20131207_204411_zps33abd39f.jpg"/></a>
Left:
<a href="http://s613.photobucket.com/user/stiffljp/media/20131207_204315_zpsb50b70d9.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt215/stiffljp/20131207_204315_zpsb50b70d9.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 20131207_204315_zpsb50b70d9.jpg"/></a>
Bottom front left:
<a href="http://s613.photobucket.com/user/stiffljp/media/20131207_204307_zpsa1388927.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt215/stiffljp/20131207_204307_zpsa1388927.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 20131207_204307_zpsa1388927.jpg"/></a>
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
I spoke with a "big" company that made a tank for an acquaintance of mine, and that tank had a few spots on it that looked like this. those were only 1-2" long though.
That company claims to be the "oldest acrylic tank manufacturer in the US", who will go nameless because I don't want to be threatened with a lawsuit like they did to James/Acrylics when he called them out....
But what he basically told me was that since it was 'so hot' during the time of the year that the tank was made, that the solvent would start to evap out before the joint was set (i.e. pins pulled). So the solution was to run a bead of WO16 along any seams with bubbles, and the tank "would last forever" <- direct quote.
In short, bull. This type of work is simply put poor quality fabrication. These bubble are not the result of the tank being set up improperly, this kind of effect can only result from fabrication.
Now, when I sent him pics he recanted and said the tank "should have never left the shop looking like that"...of course, the customer who bought it didn't know any different. Makes me wonder how many tanks they make that "shouldn't leave the shop". I know that I pull my hair out over a single bubble. Apparently I am a little retentive, or have morals. Maybe both.
The larger problem, IMO, is that whenever you buy a used tank, you really should almost exactly mimic the conditions the tank was in. That means you should use the same stand, or duplicate it. If the stand was a little bit off, and you put the tank on a "perfect" stand, the acrylic, which is already "used to" the position it was in, can "re-stress" and this can lead to tank failure.
Having seams like this might just magnify that problem. The only way to find out is to set it up and put water in it. In your garage.
Someone else can jump in and correct me if I am wrong, but that's just what I've seen.
That company claims to be the "oldest acrylic tank manufacturer in the US", who will go nameless because I don't want to be threatened with a lawsuit like they did to James/Acrylics when he called them out....
But what he basically told me was that since it was 'so hot' during the time of the year that the tank was made, that the solvent would start to evap out before the joint was set (i.e. pins pulled). So the solution was to run a bead of WO16 along any seams with bubbles, and the tank "would last forever" <- direct quote.
In short, bull. This type of work is simply put poor quality fabrication. These bubble are not the result of the tank being set up improperly, this kind of effect can only result from fabrication.
Now, when I sent him pics he recanted and said the tank "should have never left the shop looking like that"...of course, the customer who bought it didn't know any different. Makes me wonder how many tanks they make that "shouldn't leave the shop". I know that I pull my hair out over a single bubble. Apparently I am a little retentive, or have morals. Maybe both.
The larger problem, IMO, is that whenever you buy a used tank, you really should almost exactly mimic the conditions the tank was in. That means you should use the same stand, or duplicate it. If the stand was a little bit off, and you put the tank on a "perfect" stand, the acrylic, which is already "used to" the position it was in, can "re-stress" and this can lead to tank failure.
Having seams like this might just magnify that problem. The only way to find out is to set it up and put water in it. In your garage.
Someone else can jump in and correct me if I am wrong, but that's just what I've seen.
Thanks for the feedback. I guess my overall question relies around if a 1-2 day tank test is indicative if it will hold water for a couple years? (How did your friends tank do?)
Along with that, should I press the manufacturer to re-do the tank on the grounds that its not structurally sound or is this only aesthetic.
In my very non-engineering oriented head, I think that if its 3/4" material that should be bound 3/4 * 3/4 = X but I have bubbles that cover half then its 3/4 * 3/4 = X/2. Maybe the tank only needs X/4 to be viable so this is fine or my thought process is completely irrelevant because its not that simple.
Ill be the first to admit that I'm a chronic overbuilder so this could be simple paranoia (or a healthy fear of my wife should this split.)
Along with that, should I press the manufacturer to re-do the tank on the grounds that its not structurally sound or is this only aesthetic.
In my very non-engineering oriented head, I think that if its 3/4" material that should be bound 3/4 * 3/4 = X but I have bubbles that cover half then its 3/4 * 3/4 = X/2. Maybe the tank only needs X/4 to be viable so this is fine or my thought process is completely irrelevant because its not that simple.
Ill be the first to admit that I'm a chronic overbuilder so this could be simple paranoia (or a healthy fear of my wife should this split.)
woodnaquanut
Active member
Send it back. It should never have left the manufacturer. If this is their best work, find another manufacturer.
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
Oh I just noticed that it is a new tank. I would send it back and demand a full refund and go somewhere else.
Material is proper. Top and bottom being 1/2" is not a problem. Seams should be completely bubble free or it's just flat out bit built right. Who made it????
Material is proper. Top and bottom being 1/2" is not a problem. Seams should be completely bubble free or it's just flat out bit built right. Who made it????
In fairness to the manufacturer, I'll leave them unanimous until they have a chance to address the issue.
For my own clarification though, the overall thought is that this tank is not structurally sound and will fail sooner than later. Hence the need to send back to the manufacturer.
For my own clarification though, the overall thought is that this tank is not structurally sound and will fail sooner than later. Hence the need to send back to the manufacturer.
Similar threads
