AF Balling method using BRS 2 part?

[drawman]

Hi All,
I've been trying to get my head around if this will be possible. I want to try the Aquaforest (AF) Balling method but I have a ton of BRS 2 part still so I'm wondering if I could use the 2 part for the Balling method.

Here are some things I've taken away:
1. Both use CaCl2 so I don't see this as an issue for the Calcium portion.
2. BRS uses Soda Ash or Na2CO3 while AF uses NaHCO3
3. BRS uses a combination of MgCl2 and MgSO4 while AF uses MgCl2
4. AF uses Reef Mineral Salt which I believe should be completely Na and Cl free.
5. AF uses components to add for addition of trace elements. I know that BRS has used Fauna trace in their videos so I don't see the AF version as being a problem.

Here is the recommended container setup for the AF Balling system:
CONTAINER 1:
Aquaforest Calcium - Dissolve 50g in 1000ml of deionized water
Aquaforest Magnesium - Add 10g
Component A Strong - Add 5ml
Component B Strong - Add 5ml

CONTAINER 2:
Aquaforest KH Buffer - Dissolve 80g in 1000ml of deionized water
Component C Strong - Add 5ml

CONTAINER 3:
Aquaforest Reef Mineral Salt - Dissolve 25g in 1000ml of deionized water
Component K Strong - Add 5ml

Here are some assumptions I am making. Number one would be I can substitute the AF NaHCO3 for the BRS Na2CO3. It would seem that I would be adding more Na but wouldn't that be better since it is equal to the addition of Cl I'm adding? Another assumption is that I would need to use the AF Magnesium since it's just Magnesium Chloride. I'm sure I could find a way to calculate using the BRS MgCl2 but I haven't gotten there yet. I would also use the AF Reef Mineral Salt. Last assumption is that the AF Components will all be okay to use.

I did some calculations to convert the BRS amounts to AF amounts and they are as follows:
I need 50g AF Calcium in Container 1. 50g would raise 100L by 175ppm per AF's website (actually website says 10g raise 35ppm). This would correspond to 473.1mL BRS CaCl2 (as figured from the BRS calculator).

I need 80g AF KH in Container 2. 80g would raise 100L by about 26.4ppm per AF's website (actually website says 10g raise 3.3dKh). This would correspond to 498.1mL BRS Soda Ash solution (as figured from the BRS calculator).

Since I want the two values to be equal or nearly so I will go with the calcium value of 473.1mL for both Ca/Alk because I believe the calculation to be more precise from AF's website (using 35ppm raised as opposed to 3.3dKh).

Does anyone see a problem doing this? Will using Na2CO3 be a problem?

Thanks,
Tim

 

[bertoni]

Using sodium carbonate (washing soda) is fine, and a lot of people do that do help a bit with pH. I'm not sure what the purity or composition of those supplements might be. Do they list the concentration of the solutions or anything similar? This article explains how to create a 2-part using calcium chloride and sodium carbonate:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

 

[drawman]

Using sodium carbonate (washing soda) is fine, and a lot of people do that do help a bit with pH. I'm not sure what the purity or composition of those supplements might be. Do they list the concentration of the solutions or anything similar? This article explains how to create a 2-part using calcium chloride and sodium carbonate:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

Thanks Jonathan,
I have read that article and I think it's a great read! It doesn't have the answer to a couple of things unfortunately and I know I'm treading off road a bit.

When you say supplements I'm assuming you are referring to the "Components"? I haven't bought them yet and haven't found anything about concentrations but I have a general sense of what's in them.

I am assuming at this point, as long as I'm not changing the concentration of CaCl2, if it works for the Aquaforest CaCl2 it should work for the BRS CaCl2 since it's the same chemical...purity of CaCl2 could potentially come into play I guess. With this thought I'm not too worried about Container 1 other than adding just MgCl2 as opposed to a combination of MgCl2 and MgSO4.

For "Container 2" or the Alkalinity portion you add "Component C" which is concentrated iodide and fluoride. I guess I'm hoping that switching from NaHCO3 to Na2CO3 won't affect this. I know Na2CO3 will raise pH so it's more basic...hopefully this wouldn't mess with the iodide and fluoride to any degree. Any thoughts?

Finally I want to keep everything in relative concentrations with the balling method. Given that it seems like the big difference between NaHCO3 and Na2CO3 (other than the effect on pH) would be the addition of an extra sodium ion per molecule of CaCO3 consumed. So in a sense I would be continually raising my sodium concentration? Maybe the impact wouldn't be significant over the long run but am I wrong in this? Thoughts? I guess at this point I'm looking for affirmation that everything will be okay lol

 

[bertoni]

Yes, by supplements I mean the components you're considering. The Aquaforest and BRS calcium supplements probably are the same chemical at the same concentration, but purity levels do differ quite a bit. Most likely, they are close enough, but you might need to do some tuning.

Using a bit of magnesium sulfate in the mix helps keeps the ionic balance a bit closer to seawater, but if the tank gets regular water changes, the difference is small, and I wouldn't worry about it.

The high pH should be okay for the iodide and fluoride.

The 2-parts raise the salinity over time. The only (practical) supplement that doesn't have a long-term effect on the salinity is Kalk. If the various parts of the supplement system have enough other elements, the sodium concentration stays the same, but many supplements don't do that. I don't think it's a major concern as long as the tank gets water changes.

I think your approach is fine.

 

[drawman]

Yes, by supplements I mean the components you're considering. The Aquaforest and BRS calcium supplements probably are the same chemical at the same concentration, but purity levels do differ quite a bit. Most likely, they are close enough, but you might need to do some tuning.

Using a bit of magnesium sulfate in the mix helps keeps the ionic balance a bit closer to seawater, but if the tank gets regular water changes, the difference is small, and I wouldn't worry about it.

The high pH should be okay for the iodide and fluoride.

The 2-parts raise the salinity over time. The only (practical) supplement that doesn't have a long-term effect on the salinity is Kalk. If the various parts of the supplement system have enough other elements, the sodium concentration stays the same, but many supplements don't do that. I don't think it's a major concern as long as the tank gets water changes.

I think your approach is fine.

Thanks Jonathan I appreciate your input here. I'm going to give it a go.

 

[bertoni]

You're welcome! Good luck!

 

[Mirror Pond]

drawman - Did you end up trying this out and how did it work? What were the final amounts of each ingredient that you used. I was thinking of trying the same thing. Thanks.

 

[642642]

Any updates?

 

[iLLwiLL]

just thought I'd bump this up 1 more time in hopes of an update

 

[drawman]

drawman - Did you end up trying this out and how did it work? What were the final amounts of each ingredient that you used. I was thinking of trying the same thing. Thanks.

Any updates?

just thought I'd bump this up 1 more time in hopes of an update

Hey guys sorry for the lack of updates! I have been trying to tackle a couple of other issues in my tank so I haven't tried this even though I have pretty much all of the supplies. Once I get a few things corrected in my tank I know I will get back to this but it hasn't been my focus just yet.

For now I'm still keeping Ca/Alk stable with BRS 2 part and the Mineral Salt is sitting on the shelf :sad1:

 

[Martin Kuhn]

Hello drawman

By the infos AF are giving you can evaluate their contents of the recipees
For the Ca Alk and Mg salts

As far as I remember
- CaCl2 is waterfree !!
- Alk salt is a mix from Na2CO3 and NaHCO3
- the additional salt is NaCl free salt


No details about "their trace recipees" of course

I can have a closer look if you want



Calculating exact doses, even when you change parts of the recipe, concentrations or whatever else you want is a nice job for AquaCalculator (wi does premium or iOS versions only). Also calculating how much salinity raises exactly for your special dosage


My personal advice for dosing an "exact ratio" of ca / Alk salts. Forget on ANY ion disbalance and dose what your tank consumes. This is much better than having one of this parameters to high/low just if you want to keep stoichiometric balance

Best rgds
Martin


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk

 

[bertoni]

Most calcium chloride products in the US are dihydrate. Some products are anhydrous. They heat up when water is added. Ice melt products typically are anhydrous.

 

[Martin Kuhn]

As of the really nice and detailed instructions given by AF, this is what should be inside their products. AquaCalculator also calculates like this if you selcet this recipe

"AF Calcium": 83 %(weigtht) CaCl2 anhydrous (~9% H2O left) + 17% (weight) MgCl2 6xH2O
(i don't consider the Mg added in mycalcualtions. In typical tanks this will most likely end in that all consumed Mg by the tank will be added already by this component. Maybe Mg will even raise slowly uncontrolled. Don't ask me why AF does that, maybe to get rid of another container/dosing pump channel)

"AF KH Buffer" Pure NAHCO3 (no Na2CO3 ! also not as a mix)

"AF Reef Mineral Salt": expectation is naCl free salt. All mixtures that i know here deliver a high amount of Mg (again) + several other traces like K, Ba, ....

About the traces/elements of course no specifications are available

concentrations
"AF Calcium" 50g/Liter (6%, very low saturated, maybe to have a roughely 1:1 dosing of Ca/Alk stock solutions)
"AF KH Buffer: 80g/Liter (84% saturated solution)
"AF Reef Mineral Salt" 25g/Liter (max possible solution)

 

[bertoni]

Calcium chloride dihydrate is about 24% water by weight, so their product is mostly anhydrous, with something like 38% calcium chloride dihydrate.

 

[AddictReef]

Hey all. I am considering doing the same . As I have a large overstock of BRS balling materials.

Are we not worried about adding the Magnesium chloride to the calcium chloride?

Doing this am I understanding that we will leave the magnesium sulfate out?

I believe the aquaforest recipes calls for 5 parts of calcium to 1 part Magnesium. (50g to 10g)

Also I currently I dose very little Magnesium. A small monthly dose. alk and calcium is dosed equivalently daily.

Thanks for the help all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[AddictReef]

Hey all. I am considering doing the same . As I have a large overstock of BRS balling materials.

Are we not worried about adding the Magnesium chloride to the calcium chloride?

Doing this am I understanding that we will leave the magnesium sulfate out?

I believe the aquaforest recipes calls for 5 parts of calcium to 1 part Magnesium. (50g to 10g)

Also I currently I dose very little Magnesium. A small monthly dose. alk and calcium is dosed equivalently daily.

Thanks for the help all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm sitll wondering about this. Should i just buy the AF magnesium or can I use the BRS Mag chloride in the CA part and leave the sulfate out?

 

[bertoni]

You can add some magnesium chloride to the calcium part. That should be fine.