Alan's 180g Reef

[jd474]

I've talked to Mitch about this a lot, and basically he admits corals can RTN at any time for absolutely no reason at all (people can guess, but he insists they really don't know, and you can't prove it, besides). I've seen it happen a lot, corals that have been in systems for years, with virtually no changes, and one day, boom, gone.

Your lense can probably get close enough, but I always put fragments with tissue still on in freshwater, and look at what comes off under a microscope. You should see SOME ciliates, but it's the best time to look for any potential pests (not suggesting that's the case here, just an FYI).

Don't get too bummed out, I've killed a lot of coral, and sometimes they just get ****ed and die.

 

[alanmorehead]

I've talked to Mitch about this a lot, and basically he admits corals can RTN at any time for absolutely no reason at all (people can guess, but he insists they really don't know, and you can't prove it, besides). I've seen it happen a lot, corals that have been in systems for years, with virtually no changes, and one day, boom, gone.

Yeah, it's just a little depressing when it happens. Glad that I made a few frags of it though.
I noticed some RTN yesterday on my green w/ purple tip acro colony too, but I clipped that dying piece off right away. I think it should be ok.

Your lense can probably get close enough, but I always put fragments with tissue still on in freshwater, and look at what comes off under a microscope. You should see SOME ciliates, but it's the best time to look for any potential pests (not suggesting that's the case here, just an FYI).

I was just researching ciliates, but I guess I'm still not sure exactly what I should be looking for. Are you just saying that they are something harmless I will see when dipped in freshwater or something that I should be looking for as a pest? I just want to make sure my pest checklist is complete for the future. It looks like there is a ciliate (Heterotrich) that could damage the coral, but seems like this is identifiable with a dark band or microbial mat and moves slowly. Besides red bugs, AEFW, MENB/ZENB, red planaria, and predatory snails/spiders, is there anything else I should look for?

These pod pics w/ the dark spots that I posted are the closest I can get. I'll need a microscope to get closer.

If ciliates, would I be looking for something like this?

http://schaechter.asmblog.org/schaechter/2009/05/collateral-damage.html

 

[jd474]

Some are harmless, and you shouldn't be worried if you see them, and some are bad. I've actually seen them with zooxanthellae in them before, those would be more of the pest variety. It's just a good idea to look and see if there's any cause for concern, or just a coral that crapped out (for things like protozoans, ciliates, etc.). Unfortunately we're getting closer and closer in to the "biology realm," of which I am horrible at.

It's probably not worth buying a microscope, as a crappy one will start off at $500 and go up from there, and your camera looks like it will suffice for what you need to identify.

 

[hankclaussen]

Some are harmless, and you shouldn't be worried if you see them, and some are bad. I've actually seen them with zooxanthellae in them before, those would be more of the pest variety. It's just a good idea to look and see if there's any cause for concern, or just a coral that crapped out (for things like protozoans, ciliates, etc.). Unfortunately we're getting closer and closer in to the "biology realm," of which I am horrible at.

It's probably not worth buying a microscope, as a crappy one will start off at $500 and go up from there, and your camera looks like it will suffice for what you need to identify.

How exactly do you identify zooxanthellae inside of a ciliate? I've had several pretty decent microscopes when I was a kid, albeit monoscopic, for very cheap: I'll have to look around again... I'll let you know if I find anything. What is the maximum magnification your macros are providing now?

Pretty sure RTN is my least favorite three letter acronym, but I have been able to identify major changes if not actual causes in all cases. I do not however have experience with systems experiencing RTN after years of aparent consistant conditions though. Sorry to hear about this Alan.

 

[jd474]

How exactly do you identify zooxanthellae inside of a ciliate?

I meant to say tissue, the ciliates had purple in them, and came from a purple coral.

 

[alanmorehead]

What is the maximum magnification your macros are providing now?

I'm not sure how to calculate the magnification. My setup is this:
Canon XTi + Canon 100mm macro + 55mm of extension tubes (30mm+16mm+9mm). I've been shooting with the lens fully extended and focusing adjustments were made using the tripod.

I just ordered another extension ring set and want to see how it does with another 55mm of extension rings. I assume shorter focal distance with increased magnification, but narrower focal range. Should be here next week and I'll do some testing.

As far as my tank, I've noticed a few corals starting to color up. Most of my millis are still faded, but I've seen color changes in encrusting montis and some of the acros. I'm going to continue with the amino acids and heavier feedings.

I pulled 20-30 lbs. of rock out a few nights ago and let it freeze outside. I scrubbed a few pieces and dropped them in the 300g this morning. Also, added a few test corals to the 300g to see how they do.

 

[hankclaussen]

I meant to say tissue, the ciliates had purple in them, and came from a purple coral.

Now that I can make sense of, I was worried you were getting way too geeky for me.

 

[alanmorehead]

Corals are still looking good. They are continuing to color up in my display tank. I think I might even be seeing some color come back in my Ultra Blue Tenius, which has been very faded for quite a while. I think it's just a matter of time for things to get back to normal.

The frags I put in the 300g stock tank to test with are also doing well. Polyps are all out and haven't seen any negative signs from any of the ~20 frags I put in there.

This is pretty rare to see, but my elephant slug was out the other day. I usually see it maybe twice a year. Seems to have grown a little since last time and is roughly 3" long now:

 

[alanmorehead]

Ok, I'm planning on making some major progress this week with the rebuild. I originally planned on moving the 300g into the fish room further down the road, but I think I'm going to be better off if I move things now. That way I only have to worry about moving some cycled base rock and a few frags. Also, I have a sohal tang on hold and will pick him up next weekend:

So far I have almost cleaned out my frag tank and moved things into the display or sump area. I replaced the open area in my display where I took rock out with some eggcrate shelves to temporarily hold corals:

My plan is to move my sump and frag tank back to where they were before the fuge addition (to the right of the tank in the fish room). I should be able to stack the frag tank back on top and get them both out of the way so the 300g fits in. The plumbing should be pretty easy and I think I still have the pieces I used before. I will probably take the 100g fuge out of the fish room for now. I don't want to cause any issues with removing the fuge all at once, so I'll probably just plumb it with an extra pump and overflow it back into the sump. This should free up the entire rest of the fish room and allow me to move forward. I removed the vertical center support piece on the back of the stand last night. (Display tank is still in place. One of the benefits to overbuilding ) I'm going to need this center space open to allow the Darts to fit in there. I still need to remove the floor sill board.

This means I need to figure out how I want to line up my return and closed loop bulkheads. I have a few ideas, but haven't decided yet:

- I need to shave off those two edges that are used to lock in the factory bulkhead so the larger 2" bulkhead will fit
- For the return plumbing to the display, I will just enlarge the factory hole to fit a 2" bulkhead and plumb it up with 1.5" spa flex on the outlet

For the closed loop:
1) Drill the angled edge directly above the return bulkhead. I would need a 45 elbow just to feed the pump. Also, I don't know if this would even work without putting elbows and extra plumbing on the return pump so I could get around the other pump's plumbing. Probably not really an option
2) I could drill a hole as close to that top lip as possible, but the stock tank will not be completely full and the water level sits about 5" below the top. I'm concerned that having it too close to the top would cause it to suck in bubbles from the surface. Still possible issues with the return pump being directly below it, but I'd have a little bit more room to get the plumbing around.
3) Drill a hole to either side of the center on the middle tier. It would be out of the way of the other pump and wouldn't have to worry about air bubbles from the surface.
4) Similar to #3, except drill it on the lower tier. Benefit being that I wouldn't need a stand, but possibly too low?
5) Don't use an external circulation pump. Use a Dart for the return to the display and use powerheads for more flexibility.

If #3 or #4. Another question is how do I want to handle the output side of the circulation pump?
a) Feed in from the mid or lower tier, output goes over the top w/ PVC or u-tube returns
b) Feed in from the mid or lower tier, output goes horizontal to the other side of the center angled piece (zero head loss)
c) Feed in from the bottom tier, output goes directly above it on the middle or top tier (8" or 16" head loss)

Looking for any suggestions. Anything I missed or recommendations?

Thanks - Alan

 

[jd474]

FWIW, Alan,
My intake is drilled in the second tier (your #3 option), with my Barracuda, the water level needs to be well over the intake, or it sucks air and there is a visible vortex in the water. If my level dips below ~10", i get micro bubbles, not a lot, but some (i have a 45 on the inside of my stock tank, pointing down, and it helps a bit), but I would put that hole as low as you can.

Also, have you ever drilled a larger hole, over an existing hole? (If you have, then disregard this) It's harder than it sounds. If you don't start the hole saw bit on edge to start your hole, the bit will walk all over the place (absence of a pilot bit being used), and it will scuff the inside up, and probably not seal.

I don't think I have any pics, but my return came through the top tier, and that's how I would do it again. I was able to leave that un-glued (in case I wanted to change anything), and it was more stable, and I didn't have to worry about bumping it, or tweaking the plumbing.

Anyway, that's just how I did mine. Also if you're really interested in a CSD, I put my first one on my original stock tank, and it was easy to set-up and tear down (I just ran it off a powerhead). I just had it blow diagonally across the tank, and it was fastened to the wall.

 

[alanmorehead]

FWIW, Alan,
My intake is drilled in the second tier (your #3 option), with my Barracuda, the water level needs to be well over the intake, or it sucks air and there is a visible vortex in the water. If my level dips below ~10", i get micro bubbles, not a lot, but some (i have a 45 on the inside of my stock tank, pointing down, and it helps a bit), but I would put that hole as low as you can.

Also, have you ever drilled a larger hole, over an existing hole? (If you have, then disregard this) It's harder than it sounds. If you don't start the hole saw bit on edge to start your hole, the bit will walk all over the place (absence of a pilot bit being used), and it will scuff the inside up, and probably not seal.

I don't think I have any pics, but my return came through the top tier, and that's how I would do it again. I was able to leave that un-glued (in case I wanted to change anything), and it was more stable, and I didn't have to worry about bumping it, or tweaking the plumbing.

Anyway, that's just how I did mine. Also if you're really interested in a CSD, I put my first one on my original stock tank, and it was easy to set-up and tear down (I just ran it off a powerhead). I just had it blow diagonally across the tank, and it was fastened to the wall.

My current sump is drilled at the bottom. Definitely an advantage with eliminating micro bubbles. Since my water level is not going to be that close to the rim and might get me close to that 10" level, I'm probably better off not risking it and just put it on the bottom tier. Are you running your pump to the display and T-ing it off to circulate the sump too? Or are you saying the DTs overflow is plumbed through the top tier?

I have drilled out a larger hole on the stock tanks. I've done 3 stock tank holes all together and enlarged the factory one on the 100g. I actually used a dremel to do them. That way I could get the exact size hole I wanted and have the bulhead barely squeeze through without an extra gap. Works pretty good, especially if you don't have hole saw bits that big.

Id like to do some sort of surge, but the insump skimmer is the obstacle now.

Any thoughts on skipping a dedicated external circ/CL pump and just doing powerheads (or maybe its worth jumping ahead on the surge device?). The purpose of this part is just sump circulation

 

[jd474]

Are you running your pump to the display and T-ing it off to circulate the sump too? Or are you saying the DTs overflow is plumbed through the top tier?

In my original stock tank set-up, they were just plumbed together, with the return going through the top tier in a closed loop. They were side by side, and I just pulled from the "sump" and pumped back into the "display."

Any thoughts on skipping a dedicated external circ/CL pump and just doing powerheads (or maybe its worth jumping ahead on the surge device?). The purpose of this part is just sump circulation

Since you're planning to keep/grow corals, I'm always in favor of a pump instead of powerheads for the obvious reasons (less elec., less heat, less potential risk of shock, more things to break, etc.). However, have you considered another vortech (or 2)? Not sure how they would work on a tank where the sides aren't totally vertical (ours worked terribly on fiberglass troughs), but energy consumption, no drilling, flexibility, etc. would all be a plus, IMO. Downside is the cost, of course

 

[BennyFrank]

This means I need to figure out how I want to line up my return and closed loop bulkheads. I have a few ideas, but haven't decided yet:

I think you should go with your original plan...

 

[bohlke]

I found that reefcast article where Steve Weast talks about his closed loop and the long term beneifts of pushing some of the water through the liverock. The overview is here http://www.oregonreef.com/sub_circulation.htm cant remember how long in to the show the interview is link is http://www.reefcast.com/episodes/reefcast29b.mp3

 

[alanmorehead]

Man, I don't even know which way I'm going with this :crazy1:

Since you're planning to keep/grow corals, I'm always in favor of a pump instead of powerheads for the obvious reasons (less elec., less heat, less potential risk of shock, more things to break, etc.).

Heat: I've never had any heat issues. I think due to the basement + concrete floors in the back room. It usually never goes above 78 at any time during the year.
Failure: I guess there would be more things to break, but having 2-3 powerheads would be more redundant and easier to replace one.
Visibility: Doesn't really matter for this tank

However, have you considered another vortech (or 2)? Not sure how they would work on a tank where the sides aren't totally vertical (ours worked terribly on fiberglass troughs)

Honestly, I haven't been sold on the Vortechs yet for $420 each.

but energy consumption, no drilling, flexibility, etc. would all be a plus, IMO. Downside is the cost, of course

Yeah, that's why I'm considering this powerhead option. I would hate to drill holes in the stock tank, then find out it doesn't work and have to move them and re-plumb. Part of me says that if I'm not sure I should take the safe route and do powerheads now, with an option of closed loop later on if I wanted. The experience side of me says that I would end up redoing the plumbing 5 times in the next 2 years . I do like the flexibility of being able to move powerheads and point them anywhere, especially since I haven't finalized the layout of this tank. I could do the loc-line, like in the link Jon posted, but I'd still be restricted for the general area of the output. Also, would need to either do lots of loc-line or more plumbing to split things up.
Power consumption is one of the biggest factors. I did a little research on powerheads (Tunze, Sicce, HK, Polario, Vortech). MD has the HK Magnum 8s on sale for $87. They do 3250gph @ 18W, which seems pretty appealing compared to the 137W that my Dart is pulling now.

So, I guess this is the way I'm leaning now for the circulation/flow of the 300g:
* Display tank's return adds a little bit of flow
* (2) Hydro Koralia Magnum 8s - 6500gph @ 36W
* Possible option of doing a surge device (isolate skimmer or new skimmer)

Jason - In your experience, how do you think the surge device does as a replacement for this circulation flow? For example, would a 24/7 CSD plus the display's overflow be sufficient? or are powerheads a must?

 

[alanmorehead]

I think you should go with your original plan...

I don't know what's going on with that plumbing, but it doesn't look good.
Also, that water looks disgustingly dirty for swimming in. I think that diaper must be leaking

 

[alanmorehead]

I found that reefcast article where Steve Weast talks about his closed loop and the long term beneifts of pushing some of the water through the liverock. The overview is here http://www.oregonreef.com/sub_circulation.htm cant remember how long in to the show the interview is link is http://www.reefcast.com/episodes/reefcast29b.mp3

Thanks for finding it. I'm going to try to listen to the reefcast today

 

[jd474]

Well it sounds like you have a pretty good idea where you are headed.

Jason - In your experience, how do you think the surge device does as a replacement for this circulation flow? For example, would a 24/7 CSD plus the display's overflow be sufficient? or are powerheads a must?

They're great for the corals, but really only move a lot of water at the surface. I don't think it would be great for keeping detritus in suspension for removal, however.

Also, I checked the volume of the stock tank for surge fluctuation, and at 60" x 60" square (I believe the stock tanks are ~63" x 69"), 1" = a little over 15 gal. So I would think a 5 or 10 gallon surge wouldn't affect your water level/skimmer all that much.

 

[alanmorehead]

I found that reefcast article where Steve Weast talks about his closed loop and the long term beneifts of pushing some of the water through the liverock. The overview is here http://www.oregonreef.com/sub_circulation.htm cant remember how long in to the show the interview is link is http://www.reefcast.com/episodes/reefcast29b.mp3

I made it through the first 30-40min earlier. I listened to the part where Steve talks about his closed loop and he said it made a huge difference with keeping the detritus suspended by having the returns at the bottom of the rock. He said the water was very clean when they got to the last few inches when tearing it down. They brought up drilling the bottom of the tank again, but he said he would probably go with waveboxes or powerheads next time. I think the big concern was that one of those would get bumped and the whole tank would need to be drained for repair.

They're great for the corals, but really only move a lot of water at the surface. I don't think it would be great for keeping detritus in suspension for removal, however.

Also, I checked the volume of the stock tank for surge fluctuation, and at 60" x 60" square (I believe the stock tanks are ~63" x 69"), 1" = a little over 15 gal. So I would think a 5 or 10 gallon surge wouldn't affect your water level/skimmer all that much.

I did come up with one possibility for eliminating potential skimmer issues on a surge device. My concern with isolating the skimmer was having to turn around and pump water back up to it. I think it might be possible to skip a return line by putting it inline with the display's overflow. I should be able to set the skimmer in a separate tank to the left of the display, drain it into that tank, then have it overflow into the 300g. I'd also be able to shade that spot better to keep the coraline and other algae from growing in the chamber, which is a pain to clean. It would be in the same spot where I'm planning to put the Ca reactor to shade it too. Not sure if I want to tackle that at this point though, but could be an option in the future. Would a 30g trash can or a 29g glass tank be more appropriate for this size if the skimmer wasn't an issue?

 

[alanmorehead]

Here's what I did tonight:

Hasn't been that open for a while I should be all ready to go and plan on moving the 300g into the fish room Wednesday night. I wasn't able to get the other 100g fuge plumbed back in, so I put a bunch of chaeto in the 50g tank. The empty 100g should come in handy for moving the 300g now though.

I plugged the 2" bulkhead for the return pump and I'm just running a few smaller internal pumps for now. Those temporary expanding PVC plugs are life savers! The PVC slid out of the bulkhead very easily when I took the return pump off. I'm kind of surprised it wasn't leaking for as easy it was to pull out. It goes bulkhead - short PVC - rubber coupler - short PVC - threaded adapter - pump. All sections are siliconed to help seal things. Like this:

I use the rubber coupler to help with potential vibration. Not sure if this is really doing anything or if I would be better off using another method. I could cement the short PVC into the bulkhead to seal it better, since I'm pretty sure this will not change. Thoughts on a better method or cementing the PVC in the bulkhead?

Also, I went ahead and ordered a pair of HK Magnum 8s from MD. I guess I'll get an idea on how well they work next week.
On a side note, I still haven't received my extra extension ring set. Probably wouldn't have had time to mess with them this week anyway.