Algae Scrubber Basics

[Floyd R Turbo]

Yep, acrylic is nice because you can custom build just about anything, but taking a stock tank and buying glass at True Value and siliconing it in place is way cheaper. I guess I should say it's a lot cheaper than something acrylic built correctly.

 

[SPotter]

correctly being the operative word and thats what is weighing on me with this decision. While I have gotten better with DIY projects, I also know my limitations and given the size of this project there becomes a time when you need to step aside and let the people who know what they are doing do what they do best.

 

[JohnnyB in SD]

So I am kicking around two different filtration system ideas for my 280 build that I will be starting very soon. One idea is to use rubbermaid stock tanks and the other is to have a custom acrylic system made. With this I would create a compartment for the scrubber and wanted to get everyone's feed back to see what problems you think I might run into.

View attachment 164679

If I go this route, I would more than likely go back to using clip on cfl's for my lighting and I would build an acrylic box similar to Floyd's box with two bulkheads that would drain into the scrubber area.

Thanks and I am looking forward to everyone's thoughts.

How you going to feed water to the screen either way you go? Always a good idea to use overflow when feasible instead of adding a pump.

How are you draining your current box? I'm having issues trying to get my 1" bulkheads to be quiet in a box like Floyds, and they're only handling 300gph or so each into a tank 5" below them. It's not easy trying to make silent drains in the limited space of an ATS screen chamber. I'm considering an open bottom with screen hanging directly into the fuge to help support a pod population.

Don't think the LEDs are going to work out well long term? Adaptable light mounting is a feature I will incorporate so I can use whichever method is most favorable. So far CFLs have been the most effective but the jury's still out on T5s. I was hoping you'd have LEDs all figured out by the time I get around to next build.
I think Floyds central box with more or less open sides would be a good design if you don't have to be too concerned with light scatter. And light from the ATS over a fuge could be a good thing.
Is your filtration system going into a basement or garage instead of in a stand under tank? Makes it easier to go higher with the ATS over the fuge instead of taking up ground floor real estate.

Just some thoughts I've been thinking since I'm going to be doing a larger build too.

 

[SPotter]

How you going to feed water to the screen either way you go? Always a good idea to use overflow when feasible instead of adding a pump.

How are you draining your current box? I'm having issues trying to get my 1" bulkheads to be quiet in a box like Floyds, and they're only handling 300gph or so each into a tank 5" below them. It's not easy trying to make silent drains in the limited space of an ATS screen chamber. I'm considering an open bottom with screen hanging directly into the fuge to help support a pod population.

Don't think the LEDs are going to work out well long term? Adaptable light mounting is a feature I will incorporate so I can use whichever method is most favorable. So far CFLs have been the most effective but the jury's still out on T5s. I was hoping you'd have LEDs all figured out by the time I get around to next build.
I think Floyds central box with more or less open sides would be a good design if you don't have to be too concerned with light scatter. And light from the ATS over a fuge could be a good thing.
Is your filtration system going into a basement or garage instead of in a stand under tank? Makes it easier to go higher with the ATS over the fuge instead of taking up ground floor real estate.

Just some thoughts I've been thinking since I'm going to be doing a larger build too.

I will feed the screen from one of the overflow lines. The new tank will have two external overflow boxes and each box will have 2 1.5" drains in it. I am hoping that one drain line will give me the flow I need for the screen.

My current box is open under the screen so the water just drops right into the fuge. This does cause a lot of micro bubles that flow into the return section.

The new tank will be in the basement and everything will be located directly behind the tank on the other side of the wall where the basement is unfinished so light spill wont be an issue. I think LED's will work fine but I am thinking that it will take a lot of them to produce the same growth that cfl's and t5's are producing. Given what this project is going to cost me, I am leaning towards two cfl's on each side of the screen but who knows. I usually end up saying..."I've spent this much already what's another $$$$ at this point" which becomes very dangerous. Hopefully Floyd will have some data on his led project by the time I am ready to add ATS lights. Right now I probably wont have the tank running until late january as the contract that is remodeling my basement has run into some delays on his current job.

 

[JohnnyB in SD]

You should check out BeanAnimals with Calfo overflows if you haven't gone too far with the corners.

My current box is open under the screen so the water just drops right into the fuge. This does cause a lot of micro bubles that flow into the return section.

Bubble trap after the fuge before it hits the return section will get rid of the micro bubbles. I wouldn't have a problem with bubbles in my fuge, even big ones.
Any other downsides?

Given what this project is going to cost me, I am leaning towards two cfl's on each side of the screen but who knows. I usually end up saying..."I've spent this much already what's another $$$$ at this point" which becomes very dangerous.

Yeah, I hear ya on the "what's another $$$$ at this point" .
But electric costs are a significant long term consideration for a large ATS, at least in my part of the country. $0.33 / kwh for top tier rate, which is what I consider the tank cause it isn't a necessity. That's before California throws on their BS fees to push it closer to $.40. Factor in bulb replacement costs and LEDs become a no brainer - if they are effective.
But that's why I'm saying set it up to be flexible with the lighting option. You/I might start with CFLs, but down the road LEDs will be to the point where they'd be a better & inexpensive option. Don't want to reinvent the whole ATS to switch lighting or you're back to "another $$$$ at this point".
I wish there were something we could do to help Floyd, last I heard he was buried in normal life activities.

I probably wont have the tank running until late january

I'm projecting March for my tank & I don't have any contractors involved. We're probably both over optimistic
What's the saying - only bad things happen fast with a reef tank?

 

[bad santa]

I don't think the "beananimal" design would work if your planing to use a drain line to feed the ATS. I am using the "BA" design and my return line has to be submerged about an inch underwater for the system to work.

 

[scolley]

^^^^

My name is not Thomas but I'd love to see some pics . . .

OK. Going on 5 months with an ATS on my little 29g. So here goes"¦

The ATS only gets light on one side, so water only runs down one side of the mat. It's driven by an elbow off the return. Since it's one sided, the screen and the PVC it's inserted in are permanently strapped together. The bank of the screen is siliconed to the PVC to keep from wasting flow down an unlit side.


Here's a pic of the screen and light. As you can see the light is an LED array on the door. When the door is closed the light is about 4" in front of from the algae mat. And you should see an acrylic splash guard hanging about an inch in front of the mat.

The LEDs are primarily Cree Cool White XR-Es with a couple some deep reds from Mouser mixed in. And there's an odd one or two others in the mix. Just had a couple too few Cool Whites when I was screwing them onto the heatsink. I think the two others are spare XR-E Neutral Whites. Pretty sure, but not absolutely positive. It's all driven with a MeanWell LPC-60-1050 constant current driver. And they look different because some are attached to the heat sink with those nifty screw down, solder free covers. But I ran out to those too! Some great planner, huh? I guess the point is, the LED thing ain't rocket science. A few Cool Whites - maybe some red - and algae grows.

I clean ½ of the screen each weekend. The algae on the left is thicker, because it's been two weeks since it was cleaned. I scrapped all of that off today, as seen in the cup.

Here you can see the union that I use to connect it to the plumbing in the stand.

And this is a view of the silicon bead that keeps water from spilling out the back. The algae on the back I assume is from ambient light, and water seeping in from the front. And you can also see one of the two looped-ended zip ties I use to suspend the PVC from the top of my stand from hooks.

Here's the simple little splash guard I made to protect the LEDs from splashing on the mat. It's essential. But I need to put a piece of opaque acrylic across the some of the top portion to keep light off the area where the screen comes out of the PVC.

I need that light blockage because the openings where the water runs out gets completely gummed up with algae by mid-week, every week, as you can see below. And then this thing gets noisy. Very often I have to do a mid-week cleaning of the gummed up holes. I'm hoping by just blocking that light, all that will go away.

 

[scolley]

And previously I claimed I have no DT algae. Turns out I was wrong. On the fastest flow spot of the tank "“ the front of my Vortech MP10 "“ some hair algae lives. But that's it. My tank's pretty humble right now "“ recovering from a nasty crash caused by my cleaning too many palys off a rock at one time. So please go easy on me on the evaluation of the tank. But I do want to prove that there is no algae, so here's a few humble tank shots, with one of the spec of algae that IS there on my MP10. And here's a link to a BIG FTS shot. If you open it, you should be able to zoom around and look for algae where ever you want. It's not there.

So I'm pretty happy with my little ATS. Great, natural way of pulling phosphate and nitrates out of the water. They are "“ as I mentioned in my last post "“ unmeasureable. Though I'm sure they spike periodically after a feed (when I turn my skimmer off), before the ATS scrub it all out. Otherwise my SPS would be dead. So IMO, things are working pretty ideally.


Many thanks to all here how made the information available so it would be possible to do this. :thumbsup:

 

[SPotter]

Scolley......amazing!!!!! Is your heat sink the same size as your screen? And whats the size of your screen? forgive me if you stated this in an earlier post.

Steve

 

[scolley]

Thank you very much sir. It's humble, but it works!

The screen is a little smaller than called for on this thread. It's only 8" wide by 6" high. That is, the wetted part that gets light.

The heat sink is one of these. It's roughly 4" x 9", and obviously I've suspended it so that the long dimension is horizontal, just as the long dimension of my screen is. Works great. But I took a gamble and got it for about $5 in Rapid LED's "as is" section. So it had a couple holes that needed re-tapping, but having a tap kit, it was easy.

 

[SPotter]

Thats great! ive been running leds on mine now for almost three months but im not getting the growth you are. My screen is a little bigger than yours and lit on both sides. I only have 7 leds on each side compared to your 12. thanks for the info.

Steve

 

[scolley]

You are most welcome. Hope it helps, 'cuz mine works like a charm. I'm sure purists may say my algae is not the perfect variety and that I need to experiment more on the "proper" LED spectral mix. But, hey it's algae. In abundance. So it's ripping N&P out of the water, and that's all I'm looking for it to do.

 

[scolley]

Oops... I may have done the community a disservice by making my setup sound easier than it actually was to put together. There were two other factors that made it a bit harder than a "no brainer".

1. Bigger pump - I used to have an Eheim 1250 for my return pump. But the extra flow required by the ATO meant upgrading to a 1260, for roughly twice the flow. That meant more space required for the pump in my sump, more vibration, more heat imparted to the water. So while it all worked out fine, it was a significant consideration that had to be dealt with.
2. Vibration - Since my little PVC bar and algae mat are only inches away from my return, I had a very significant issue with vibration. The ATS is fed by a horizontally mounted "T" off my return line. The water pipe off that T that connects to the ATS was originally very short, and a lot of vibration was imparted to the stand, by way of the ATS through the hooks that suspend it. So I pointed the T outflow in the exact opposite direction as the ATS, meaning the water has to take a longer path through several curves along the inside sides of the stand to get back to the ATS. That longer path allowed me to almost eliminate the vibration with the use of silicone tubing connecting my return to the ATS. Here's a thread exploring silicone tubing, should you be considering that same.

Good luck ATS'ers!

 

[sharkman121]

some pics of the algae scrubber i put together today.

 

[JohnnyB in SD]

I don't think the "beananimal" design would work if your planing to use a drain line to feed the ATS. I am using the "BA" design and my return line has to be submerged about an inch underwater for the system to work.

You mean the siphon line doesn't work if the output end is not submerged? I didn't know that, thought it was just to keep it from making noise &/or bubbles. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[Thatgrimguy]

Though I scrape a ton of algae off my mat each weekend, my skimmer still pulls stinky grundu out of the water at about the same rate as before I set up my ATO. So my opinion remains that believing ATOs eliminate the need for a skimmer is a bunch of hokum.

Skimmers remove protiens from the water while they are still in the food form. The algae scrubber doesn't remove food, it removes the waste that occurs after the food breaks down. So your skimmer is basically in line before the scrubber. If you remove the skimmer the food stays in the water longer allowing your corals and fish to feed longer. Then as it breaks down the scrubber removes the results waste (no3 and po4)

TL: DR, there is no way for a scrubber to lower skimmate. Because scrubbers don't remove food... Skimmers do that before the scrubber ever gets a chance to do its job and remove waste allowing food to stay in system longer and still have no ill effects.

 

[scolley]

Point very well made. Thank you.

Please allow me to restate in simpler terms... My skimmer continues to pull stuff from the water column because it had not yet been broken down to a level where my ATS could have performed the same function for me. On the basis of my original argument - that continued skimmate production demonstrates the need for a skimmer - I cede the point. My conclusion was not well supported.

However, the fact remains that ATS's can only pull what algae consume. That means - to a large extent - nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, and carbon. Beyond that it's tiny, tiny amounts of trace elements. Protein in our tanks do not quickly, nor completely, break down into those base components. To say that it will eventually be pulled by an ATS is like saying "let the poison remain in the system, because one of these days the filter will get it all". Sounds good. All except for the damage that may be done while we wait for the protein to be broken down to a point where an ATS can pull it. And it completely ignores the biological fact that algae actually pulls very little other than the elements N, P, K, and C from a water column.

 

[salty joe]

Point very well made. Thank you.


However, the fact remains that ATS's can only pull what algae consume. That means - to a large extent - nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, and carbon. Beyond that it's tiny, tiny amounts of trace elements. Protein in our tanks do not quickly, nor completely, break down into those base components. To say that it will eventually be pulled by an ATS is like saying "let the poison remain in the system, because one of these days the filter will get it all". Sounds good. All except for the damage that may be done while we wait for the protein to be broken down to a point where an ATS can pull it. And it completely ignores the biological fact that algae actually pulls very little other than the elements N, P, K, and C from a water column.

That sounds like a good argument for using carbon if no skimmer is employed.

"I need that light blockage because the openings where the water runs out gets completely gummed up with algae by mid-week, every week, as you can see below. And then this thing gets noisy. Very often I have to do a mid-week cleaning of the gummed up holes. I'm hoping by just blocking that light, all that will go away."

Could you get a greater diameter piece of PVC, cut a slot in it and place it over your ATS feed pipe to shade the very top?

Are your LEDs 3 W?

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Looks like a good start, a couple comments:

I would re-check the width of the slot. You need this to be very straight and even and about 1/8" wide. I wouldn't mess with it too much until your screen gets started, say a week or two.

You should try to move your reflectors down so they're perpendicular to the screen, or as close to that as possible. You'll get better growth that way. Also you don't want to light up the slot/screen junction too much, with the lights where they are this tends to promote growth right there.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

You mean the siphon line doesn't work if the output end is not submerged? I didn't know that, thought it was just to keep it from making noise &/or bubbles. Thanks for the heads up.

You can run a full siphon into an ATS (bean or herbie). It has been done and works just fine.

The point of submerging the siphon line is to eliminate the point where the water can free-fall and allow air to enter the line. With the slot tube junction, air has a much more difficult time entering the line because it is a horizontal flow into a vertical narrow partially open slot, which effectively makes it submerged.