Algae Scrubber Basics

[dogstar74]

Thanks for the replies guys. I appreciate the input.

The noise is a falling water drain noise. All my pictures of my system have been posted above by srusso. I have a build thread in the DIY as well.

Anyone have an idea if a fully submerged screen would perform as well as the hanging screens? I mean do I have the whole 3D scrubber idea misunderstood?

Thanks,
Aaron

 

[srusso]

Alright Srusso, and Floyd, I have a question that I can't find an answer for.

The NOISE is killing me. I have a 10 gallon as depicted in the many pictures of my Scrubber. I am feeding this with a MJ 1200. The screen size is 3"x5" so I'm over sized with that.

So to quiet this down, I have a couple thoughts. First and easiest is to reduce the size of the pump supplying the scrubber. I have an MJ 400 that would do nicely.

Another thought would require a complete re-design. It would require raising the water level in the scrubbing chamber up so that there was no falling water sound.

Now I am hoping the first option will suffice, as it's cheap and easy. But the second option raises some questions. I know Floyd has been striving for a 3D scrubber to allow longer contact times, and avoid the die off that can occur. If I re-design so the screen was submerged fully that would approximate the 3d model that floyd is going for. So my question at long last is, does there have to be an oxygen interface with the turf algae? In other words, can the turf be completely submerged all the time, or does it need to be exposed to the air for gas exhange etc?

I'll try to draw up a schematic tonight to help describe what I'm talking about. But if you can answer those questions from the info given I'd be appreciative.

Aaron

What type of sound are you getting, is it from the pump, the PVC slit, falling water, water dumping back to your tank?

 

[srusso]

Thanks for the replies guys. I appreciate the input.

The noise is a falling water drain noise. All my pictures of my system have been posted above by srusso. I have a build thread in the DIY as well.

Anyone have an idea if a fully submerged screen would perform as well as the hanging screens? I mean do I have the whole 3D scrubber idea misunderstood?

Thanks,
Aaron

Like a slurping? Lol a video if possible would help...

 

[BluScrnOdeth]

In oder to troubleshoot this we need to know a few things.

Can you isolate where the sound is and what's causing it?
How many gph are you getting?
How big is your inlet pipe and you drain pipe?
how high is the water in your system?

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Here are some pics of my setup, so you know what I have to work with. Keep in mind that it is normally not this cluttered.

I love the pic of the cat on the sump. That is hilarious.

I designed one tank scrubber with an acrylic box suspended between 2 acrylic rails (welded on) that sat on the edges of the sump and hung down into it, with a removable front cover for access to the screen and T5HO lamps on the front and back of it. This allows you to have a screen that is taller and had the lights and everything below the top of the sump top. As long as you never let the maximum power-outage water level get above the bottom of the box that houses the screen and supports the light fixtures (T5HO waterproof endcaps, all wiring points silicone sealed) then it will work.

I was cramming a 20" x 7" screen into a 30 gallon sump under a 125 with about 8 inches of headroom. I still haven't installed it yet but I'll see if I can dig out the pics and post one here to give you an idea.

what it comes down to is that as long as you don't let the water level in the sump get past a certain point that would cause the water level to raise too high during an outage, you can put lights below the top of the sump with minimal risk of an electrical hazard. I say minimal to cover my behind...

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

The only thing I was wondering is what if you have more algae in the display tank than the scrubber does the display tank win?

It should be fine, as said before the ATS algae had the light so much closer and the flow is so much more vigorous that it will strip the nutrients out of the water more efficiently, making your DT algae wither away. However, if for some reason your DT algae is rather rampant and refuses to go away, and your screen growth seems to be lackluster after adequate time, then remove as much of the algae from the DT as possible.

On a side note, it does not necessarily do that much good to rip a bunch of algae out of your DT and then let it find it's way to the screen. Algae will grow on the screen eventually and naturally. IMO, jump-starting a screen, even with a seed screen, doesn't really make that much of a difference. I used an IA seed screen and it didn't really make that much of a difference, and I took it off after a few weeks (it was red turf anyways)

 

[dogstar74]

Well, I just swapped out the mj1200 for an MJ 404. It markedly reduced the sound as expected. I checked the scrubber to see if there was still 100% covered and it is, so the plastic screen should work as designed. I'll have to tweak the design however, there is still a small trickle sound. At least it's not unpleasant like it was before the swap. I just hope there is enough throughput to filter all the water effectively. I guess only time will tell.

As an aside, it's been running three days. The screen is greening up well, and the tank looks very clear to me. The mushrooms are opening up more than they have in the past, so that's a good sign to me. Now if I can get the zoas to open up to their full glory, then you've definately sold me.

Thanks for the help!
Aaron

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Alright Srusso, and Floyd, I have a question that I can't find an answer for.

The NOISE is killing me. I have a 10 gallon as depicted in the many pictures of my Scrubber. I am feeding this with a MJ 1200. The screen size is 3"x5" so I'm over sized with that.

So to quiet this down, I have a couple thoughts. First and easiest is to reduce the size of the pump supplying the scrubber. I have an MJ 400 that would do nicely.

Another thought would require a complete re-design. It would require raising the water level in the scrubbing chamber up so that there was no falling water sound.

Now I am hoping the first option will suffice, as it's cheap and easy. But the second option raises some questions. I know Floyd has been striving for a 3D scrubber to allow longer contact times, and avoid the die off that can occur. If I re-design so the screen was submerged fully that would approximate the 3d model that floyd is going for. So my question at long last is, does there have to be an oxygen interface with the turf algae? In other words, can the turf be completely submerged all the time, or does it need to be exposed to the air for gas exhange etc?

I'll try to draw up a schematic tonight to help describe what I'm talking about. But if you can answer those questions from the info given I'd be appreciative.

Aaron

I don't think I knew that you were running a 3x5 screen. A maxijet 1200 is rated for almost 300 GPH, and if you're only feeding your screen with it (it's not used for recirculating to the DT?) then you're getting either 100 GPH/inch or 60 GPH/inch. Both of these are pretty high, but 60 GPH/in is not really that bad, I've read SM suggest that you shoot for 35 as a minimum, and 50 or even more is desirable.

The reason for this is that the mineral exchange happens at the boundary layer, which is closest to the algae itself, and the water slows down as you get closer to the boundary layer. When you are infinitely close (or microscopically, rather) then the water flow approaches zero. So the faster and more turbulently the water moves, the better exchange you get at the boundary layer.

This is the reason why a totally flooded ATS will NOT work properly. I brought this up on the scrubbers website and SM explained it like above. I called it an "up-flow ATS". The water in a totally enclosed box would not have the turbulent enough flow to allow for adequate exchange at the boundary layer. You would need a series of power heads or something to sufficiently randomize and distribute the flow.

I think your solution should be to go with the 400 or 600 and try to get the 35-50 gph/in flow instead of 60-100.

EDIT: I see you have it solved...I'll leave the post for others to reference if needed...glad you got it fixed!

 

[dogstar74]

Thanks for the description, I didn't know about the boundary layer, makes perfect sense to me. But then I guess I don't understand the 3d scrubber and the benefit of allowing the algae to grow out and hit the box edge inturn backing up the water flow and slowing it down. Can you elaborate?

 

[srusso]

60w CFLs use 14w of energy:

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

100w CFLs use 23w:

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

so 9 60w CFLs would be 126, less than his 175 watt mark.

Thank you

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Well the 3-D growth has to do with the algae growing out far enough to trap the water against the acrylic, however there is still water flowing across the algae that has water trapped, and then it flows down the drain. The point it that it's not stagnant. I think I could explain more, however I am plagued by a blazing headache.

 

[srusso]

hpi_jeep, has a great and simple to build algae scrubber rated for a 40 gallon tank.

Shown from he thread. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1983403

10gal tank from petco. only using one side of 8"x10" screen 1 23watt CFL about 4" away from screen.
I have new pictures that i havent uploaded yet but i had to improve the 90* overflow out of the sump tank. it was terribly noisy the way i have it pictured here. I have no doubt my lighting has much to be desired. i am thinking about 2 23watt bulbs not in the sealed housing.

 

[srusso]

SSprio's scrubber seems to be coming a long... I hope he can post of more recent photos of his scrubber screen!

Sorry for the delay, its been a busy week.

Here is thus far. No cleaning done yet. The light was in fact too close, and the middle burned a bit.

Found on this thread http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18339188#post18339188

 

[importspeedman]

I love the pic of the cat on the sump. That is hilarious.

I designed one tank scrubber with an acrylic box suspended between 2 acrylic rails (welded on) that sat on the edges of the sump and hung down into it, with a removable front cover for access to the screen and T5HO lamps on the front and back of it. This allows you to have a screen that is taller and had the lights and everything below the top of the sump top. As long as you never let the maximum power-outage water level get above the bottom of the box that houses the screen and supports the light fixtures (T5HO waterproof endcaps, all wiring points silicone sealed) then it will work.

I was cramming a 20" x 7" screen into a 30 gallon sump under a 125 with about 8 inches of headroom. I still haven't installed it yet but I'll see if I can dig out the pics and post one here to give you an idea.

what it comes down to is that as long as you don't let the water level in the sump get past a certain point that would cause the water level to raise too high during an outage, you can put lights below the top of the sump with minimal risk of an electrical hazard. I say minimal to cover my behind...

I can get you guys as many pictures of these cats as you want. We currently have 12 cats (3 were born today and the father is the cat in the picture).

Yeah pictures of your ATS would be great.

I do need at least six inches of water in my sump for my return pump (preferably more), but with power off the sumps water level only rises about an inch and a half.

If all else fails I will most likely build the ATS on top of my DT during the time I build my canopy. I still need to order a door for my stand, so if I go this rout it may take a while.

Thank you guys for the help you have been providing me.

Rich

P.S. It looks like we may be having another kitten right now.

 

[hpi_jeep]

according to the head loss calculator I have 496gph after head loss. I have 8" of screen so that should be 62gal per screen inch.
I was concerned i would have too much flow. I used as many 90* in the plumbing as I could to bring that number down a little.

 

[chrissu]

All, I recently bought the domain name of reefscrubber.com. I have plans in the works and I'm hoping that you all like the name. I think it is more fitting but would like your thoughts too. Feedback appreciated!

 

[srusso]

I like the domain, good name.

 

[mrbncal]

Well, I just swapped out the mj1200 for an MJ 404. It markedly reduced the sound as expected. I checked the scrubber to see if there was still 100% covered and it is, so the plastic screen should work as designed. I'll have to tweak the design however, there is still a small trickle sound. At least it's not unpleasant like it was before the swap. I just hope there is enough throughput to filter all the water effectively. I guess only time will tell.

As an aside, it's been running three days. The screen is greening up well, and the tank looks very clear to me. The mushrooms are opening up more than they have in the past, so that's a good sign to me. Now if I can get the zoas to open up to their full glory, then you've definately sold me.

Thanks for the help!
Aaron

Sounds like you are headed in the right direction. Give it time.

 

[chrissu]

I like the domain, good name.

Thanks! Reefers love their reef tanks but they tend to hate algae - especially if it is in their reef tank. So reefscrubber.com it is.

 

[BluScrnOdeth]

Back on 2/25 i posted what the screen looked like before i cleaned it. I forgot to post what it looked like after i cleaned it so i'll do that tonight. But It is completely covered in green again!! after just 2-3 days. Friday cant come fast enough to harvest and see how much has grown...