Mpwcreighton
New member
I'm new to reefing, is this something a beginner should use or should i stick to a skimmer? I like the lower water changes because it will be a 180+ tank.
Algae Scrubber Basics
- Thread starter srusso
- Start date
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
Mp, why not just do both? That way you have a few avenues of "insurance" in case you make a goof - which happens to everyone. I would recommend making a small scrubber, maybe 2-3 cubes/day, then go with an undersized skimmer, and maybe even a small carbon reactor (or just a low-flow one). Keep your budget costs down by undersizing and diversifying. Then after a year or so, decide what it is that you prefer and make changes with better knowledge of how things work for you.
Mpwcreighton
New member
You plum a system with the skimmer then algae scrubber correct can you explain two or three cubes a day?
Thank you
Thank you
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
I would always try to put the scrubber first so that it has first crack at the water/nutrients from the display tank.
As for cubes/day, read my signature and go read the basic posts.
As for cubes/day, read my signature and go read the basic posts.
SantaMonica
Well-known member
For a new tank, for a beginner especially, I'd say start simple and cheap... scrubber only. Way easier to learn just the scrubber, than the scrubber + skimmer + water changes + etc.
Also, less beginners will be put off by the extra work of the scrubber + skimmer + water changes + etc, if they only have to deal with a scrubber.
After all, a beginner reef is probably only going to start with a few frags, and probably just zoos and mushrooms at that. A simple 10 or 20 gal reef with rock and sand, zoos and mushrooms, a few fish, and top off with bottled distilled watter, and it can't be any easier.
You can always add many more things later
Also, less beginners will be put off by the extra work of the scrubber + skimmer + water changes + etc, if they only have to deal with a scrubber.
After all, a beginner reef is probably only going to start with a few frags, and probably just zoos and mushrooms at that. A simple 10 or 20 gal reef with rock and sand, zoos and mushrooms, a few fish, and top off with bottled distilled watter, and it can't be any easier.
You can always add many more things later
For a new tank, for a beginner especially, I'd say start simple and cheap... scrubber only. Way easier to learn just the scrubber, than the scrubber + skimmer + water changes + etc.
Also, less beginners will be put off by the extra work of the scrubber + skimmer + water changes + etc, if they only have to deal with a scrubber.
After all, a beginner reef is probably only going to start with a few frags, and probably just zoos and mushrooms at that. A simple 10 or 20 gal reef with rock and sand, zoos and mushrooms, a few fish, and top off with bottled distilled watter, and it can't be any easier.
You can always add many more things later
I agree. I had to get rid of everything else to allow my scrubber to work to its potential. Now it's all I use on my 240. Just tested phosphates again. Stable at 0.00.
Garfield90
New member
Good morning guys.
I'll be starting a new system in about 2 months, the entire volume (gross) will be 5000 liters or like 1300 gallons, including a display tank, 880 gallons, sump 200 gallons and refugium, 265.
I'm lucky that the filtration setup I've defined doesn't interfere with the ATS functions, and will be:
-Skimmer, Bubble King 650 external
-Ozone generator (only for 250 mg/hour, just for water clarity)
-Kalk & calcium reactors
-Filter socks as mechanical filtration
Due I haven't started the aquarium yet, stimating scrubber size by total amount fed to the system is very very difficult. I can make a prediction but it won't be precise. What I do know is the tank will be SPS dominated, with a high bioload of fishes (tangs, anthias, etc) and my desire is to heavy feed the fishes.
If I understand correctly the basics, such a high load of SPS will consume inorganic compounds and the scrubber will "eat" what the SPS don't consume, and the skimmer will help with the organic ones.
So here come the questions, if can be answered guys
1. When is the best moment to start the scrubber? From Project's Day 1 or would it be best to wait until the tank is cycled?
2. Scrubber size, better to increase the size if there are too nutrients or to decrease it if I want more nutrients to stay in the system?
3. 660 nm leds with a few violet leds, right?
Thank you very much, and specially to the thread's creator for all the effort the has made
I'll be starting a new system in about 2 months, the entire volume (gross) will be 5000 liters or like 1300 gallons, including a display tank, 880 gallons, sump 200 gallons and refugium, 265.
I'm lucky that the filtration setup I've defined doesn't interfere with the ATS functions, and will be:
-Skimmer, Bubble King 650 external
-Ozone generator (only for 250 mg/hour, just for water clarity)
-Kalk & calcium reactors
-Filter socks as mechanical filtration
Due I haven't started the aquarium yet, stimating scrubber size by total amount fed to the system is very very difficult. I can make a prediction but it won't be precise. What I do know is the tank will be SPS dominated, with a high bioload of fishes (tangs, anthias, etc) and my desire is to heavy feed the fishes.
If I understand correctly the basics, such a high load of SPS will consume inorganic compounds and the scrubber will "eat" what the SPS don't consume, and the skimmer will help with the organic ones.
So here come the questions, if can be answered guys
1. When is the best moment to start the scrubber? From Project's Day 1 or would it be best to wait until the tank is cycled?
2. Scrubber size, better to increase the size if there are too nutrients or to decrease it if I want more nutrients to stay in the system?
3. 660 nm leds with a few violet leds, right?
Thank you very much, and specially to the thread's creator for all the effort the has made
YoungREEFA
New member
are these quiete or loud?
SantaMonica
Well-known member
Yay for zero P
The SPS won't consume inorganics the way that you are thinking. Only the scrubber will do that. The SPS need to consume organics, like food particles. Skimmers remove food particles.
You'll need to ask fish people about how much you'll need to feed the fish you want, and use that to size the scrubber. If you want to feed the corals with liquid or powdered food, however, you'll need a bigger scrubber and there is no guideline for that.
1. You can start the scrubber any time. Sooner is better, although it will not grow much until you start feeding. It will, however, save more life in your live rock from dying.
2. You never really want nutrients in the system. If you can have zero nitrate and phosphate, that would be best. Your tank can run fine without zero, however.
3. I think mostly 660nm red, with some 450nm blue, is probably best, unless you want to experiment.
Any way you want to make them
The SPS won't consume inorganics the way that you are thinking. Only the scrubber will do that. The SPS need to consume organics, like food particles. Skimmers remove food particles.
You'll need to ask fish people about how much you'll need to feed the fish you want, and use that to size the scrubber. If you want to feed the corals with liquid or powdered food, however, you'll need a bigger scrubber and there is no guideline for that.
1. You can start the scrubber any time. Sooner is better, although it will not grow much until you start feeding. It will, however, save more life in your live rock from dying.
2. You never really want nutrients in the system. If you can have zero nitrate and phosphate, that would be best. Your tank can run fine without zero, however.
3. I think mostly 660nm red, with some 450nm blue, is probably best, unless you want to experiment.
Any way you want to make them
YoungREEFA
New member
630 nm red increases algae growth more so than 660 nm. 660nm benefits corals rather than algae as much
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
Show me proof of this on an algae scrubber and I'll believe you. All others who have tried both have shown that 660nm works much better than 630nm.
Garfield90
New member
Yay for zero P
The SPS won't consume inorganics the way that you are thinking. Only the scrubber will do that. The SPS need to consume organics, like food particles. Skimmers remove food particles.
You'll need to ask fish people about how much you'll need to feed the fish you want, and use that to size the scrubber. If you want to feed the corals with liquid or powdered food, however, you'll need a bigger scrubber and there is no guideline for that.
1. You can start the scrubber any time. Sooner is better, although it will not grow much until you start feeding. It will, however, save more life in your live rock from dying.
2. You never really want nutrients in the system. If you can have zero nitrate and phosphate, that would be best. Your tank can run fine without zero, however.
3. I think mostly 660nm red, with some 450nm blue, is probably best, unless you want to experiment.
Thank you for your reply mate.
About SPS needs, I think (correct me If I'm wrong) they need nitrates and phosphates to grow. If nitrates are high, their colour will tend to brown and if PO4 is high, calcification will slow. But they need this nutrients to thrive, in a small basis ofc.
That's why I wrote about SPS consuming inorganics, because I want to have a tiny amount of nutrients, if not, the corals will not grow as I want them to.
Thank you for your words, I'll post pics when scrubber is done guys.
SantaMonica
Well-known member
If your tests show zero N and P, you still have N and P.
crazzyreefer
New member
Your bubble king is only about 20% efficient, I have about 1k of volume and run a 90+ efficient skimmer and still need a scrubber to lower the P, as for size you would need about 20sf to do it, but since you are running a skimmer it will remove a lot of the food you feed and the scrubber will take out some more, the real problem you face is flow, not just tank movement but water going to the overflows, the ability to carry that amount of food to the overflow. if you cant do that then the food will rot under your rocks and will add more p and n than can be removed. I am building a 8 sf scrubber, but my skimmer does most of the work. I have about 1000 gph dump. but this is deceiving because its a dump it acts like 4000 gph
Garfield90
New member
I believe that skimmers don't take out of the system any phosphates. I've measured PO4 from the poo of my skimmer cup and it showed 1.48, BUT I think that P is present there because of rottenness inside the cup.
Actually, there will be two pumps that will feed the display, +- 15.000 liters per hour or 4000 gallons aprox. Do you think that's enough? Plus 63400 gph of flow inside the tank with the 3 Tunzes working at full capacity.
thanks guys
JohnnyB in SD
New member
Potassium
Potassium
My harvests have been off the charts since I've been working to maintain potassium levels. Thick, green, massive amounts - my lawn would look great if I could replant it in my yard. Can't say for certain potassium is 100% the reason, or in combination with dialing my lighting in, but there is definitely a significant improvement.
So far, tests indicate potassium level drops 100ppm in 10 days on my 240gl system, feeding 50grams/day with 288sqin of ATS if I don't dose. But that is early results, so don't base any decisions off of it.
I ran out of Brightwell, have been using a plain potassium chloride solution in the ATO for past 30 days. So far so good but I am watching closely.
How is that potassium sulfate working out for you?
Do you think we should move this potassium discussion over to the advanced thread, not complicate it for people who are simply researching or trying to get up & running?
Potassium
My harvests have been off the charts since I've been working to maintain potassium levels. Thick, green, massive amounts - my lawn would look great if I could replant it in my yard. Can't say for certain potassium is 100% the reason, or in combination with dialing my lighting in, but there is definitely a significant improvement.
So far, tests indicate potassium level drops 100ppm in 10 days on my 240gl system, feeding 50grams/day with 288sqin of ATS if I don't dose. But that is early results, so don't base any decisions off of it.
I ran out of Brightwell, have been using a plain potassium chloride solution in the ATO for past 30 days. So far so good but I am watching closely.
How is that potassium sulfate working out for you?
Do you think we should move this potassium discussion over to the advanced thread, not complicate it for people who are simply researching or trying to get up & running?
crazzyreefer
New member
Garfield, Live food contains phosphates, skimmers remove live food, thus removing phosphates. its a mechanical process vs ATS is a organic process. Skimmers frothing needs 28' or 8.5m of uninterrupted bubble rise. what you find on your skimmer neck is the efficiency of your skimmer due to the bubbles not fully formed and are breaking on the way out of your skimmer. Cleaning your skimmers neck will remove phosphates.
I use a calculator to measure skimmer efficiency, but in reality, you could weigh the dried out skimmer effluent against the residue left on the neck and subtract the particles left in the water column, adding in for salt weight.
I use a calculator to measure skimmer efficiency, but in reality, you could weigh the dried out skimmer effluent against the residue left on the neck and subtract the particles left in the water column, adding in for salt weight.
Prestigious
New member
Great thread, I wish I had time to read it all! I have a few ATS questions that have probably
already been answered but in an attempt at saving some time I will ask my questions and let the ATS gurus answer them.
-I plan on running a skimmer with my future ATS. If running a skimmer on your system WITH the ATS, do you need to follow the 1 sqin per gallon rule at the beginning of the thread? OR since you have a skimmer exporting a lot of nutrients (say 50%?) then you could make your scrubber quite a bit smaller (say 50%)?
-Now, how about DSBs or RDSBs. It seems that these would greatly hinder a ATS due to there excellent abilities at nitrate reduction (my 400 gallon has 0 nitrates and no water changes have been done in over a year and I feed heavvvvily). Am I mistaken on this? I remember reading somewhere that an ATS requires both phosphate and nitrate to grow properly?
What are your thoughts? I was going to incorporate ATS on my sister's 240 gallon FOWLR (350 total water volume) . I just set it up for her with a undersized skimmer. She has fake coral in there so algae growing in main display is a huge issue that we dont want to happen so I was trying to do research on skimmer, RDSB, and GFO vs skimmer with ATS. Im leaning toward skimmer+ATS for money and maint reasons.
already been answered but in an attempt at saving some time I will ask my questions and let the ATS gurus answer them.
-I plan on running a skimmer with my future ATS. If running a skimmer on your system WITH the ATS, do you need to follow the 1 sqin per gallon rule at the beginning of the thread? OR since you have a skimmer exporting a lot of nutrients (say 50%?) then you could make your scrubber quite a bit smaller (say 50%)?
-Now, how about DSBs or RDSBs. It seems that these would greatly hinder a ATS due to there excellent abilities at nitrate reduction (my 400 gallon has 0 nitrates and no water changes have been done in over a year and I feed heavvvvily). Am I mistaken on this? I remember reading somewhere that an ATS requires both phosphate and nitrate to grow properly?
What are your thoughts? I was going to incorporate ATS on my sister's 240 gallon FOWLR (350 total water volume) . I just set it up for her with a undersized skimmer. She has fake coral in there so algae growing in main display is a huge issue that we dont want to happen so I was trying to do research on skimmer, RDSB, and GFO vs skimmer with ATS. Im leaning toward skimmer+ATS for money and maint reasons.
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
I haven't done a DSB but have read that they don't play nice with scrubbers.
I would go with an undersized scrubber and undersized skimmer as you plan. If you pump-feed the scrubber, put the pump near the outflow of the skimmer. The oxygenated water that exits the skimmer is very good for the scrubber, it will allow better algal growth on the scrubber and the scrubber will not rob alk from the water as the skimmer air fractionating puts CO2 and O2 into the water. At least that is what is currently being discovered by a few.
No GFO unless you start to see runaway P. Then start checking K and dosing if it's lot before running P removal media. Algae needs NPK to grow just like any other plant.
You can run carbon too if you want. And since it's FOWLR you can run filter socks, but FOWLR tanks will still have pods and other micro organisms that thrive on what a filter socks would remove.
I would go with an undersized scrubber and undersized skimmer as you plan. If you pump-feed the scrubber, put the pump near the outflow of the skimmer. The oxygenated water that exits the skimmer is very good for the scrubber, it will allow better algal growth on the scrubber and the scrubber will not rob alk from the water as the skimmer air fractionating puts CO2 and O2 into the water. At least that is what is currently being discovered by a few.
No GFO unless you start to see runaway P. Then start checking K and dosing if it's lot before running P removal media. Algae needs NPK to grow just like any other plant.
You can run carbon too if you want. And since it's FOWLR you can run filter socks, but FOWLR tanks will still have pods and other micro organisms that thrive on what a filter socks would remove.
Prestigious
New member
Thanks Floyd. Great summary post on page 131 btw. I highly appreciate the effort and im sure others do as well. So 8 months later....has the future "new method" you spoke of in that summary been made public yet or has it been shot down?
Thanks.
Thanks.
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