Algae Scrubber Basics

[nanomania]

SHORTY... nice video..... its easily removable too... im jus trying to figureout 2 things, 1) bubble salt creep prob and 2) covering the stone...

Can i cover the stone with black plastic bag? will double it to let the minimum light penetrate....

 

[_shorty_]

SHORTY... nice video..... its easily removable too... im jus trying to figureout 2 things, 1) bubble salt creep prob and 2) covering the stone...

Can i cover the stone with black plastic bag? will double it to let the minimum light penetrate....

Thanks. It's kind of hard doing the video with the canon 7D with one hand. It's manual focus. I haven't had mine in long enough to notice the salt creep for bubbles yet, but I'm sure it'll happen. Could make some sort of 'roof'/cover for it, I guess. As far as light blocking, it'll work without.. but plastic bag might be a cheap simple solution if it doesn't block your air flow. Would you make like a 'U' shape and drape it underneath?

WoW! 5 days but I made it from page one to here, I just installed an ATS on my breeding system last Sunday and hoping to get nitrates down without my now bi-weekly water changes

LOL - good work. There's a lot there.

 

[_shorty_]

So what's the latest on Potassium dosing? What product are people using?

 

[sieldan]

Hey guys n gals. Im in the planning stages of an ATS, and Im unsure how I can plumb it into my existing setup. Extremely tight budgets, so a separate pump is out of the question. Here is a MS Paint diagram of what I am wanting to do. But what Im thinking is to run the full siphon return thru the ATS bar, then bring what ever is not sent down the ATS screen continues over to my skimmer. Can this work?

Thanks Yall

 

[JohnnyB in SD]

So what's the latest on Potassium dosing? What product are people using?

I've found Potassium dosing to be a significant factor in optimizing my ATS harvests. If I don't dose, levels rapidly drop toward 300ppm and algae becomes dark, slimy, and weak. AT 400ppm I get green turf, even out of my CFL unit. The LED waterfall puts out so much thick green algae that it makes me grin from ear to ear every time I clean it.
My 240gl system is going through approximately 500ml /month of Potassium Chloride solution, equivalent in concentration to Brightwell Potassion, made from Now Foods powder purchased from iherb.com
I've looked at incorporating Potassium Sulfate into the mixture, but decided excess chloride ions is probably not a critical consideration at current dosage levels.
If you've got a proper scrubber but you're still not getting good to great algae, I'd suggest testing Potassium levels and see where they're at. I've found Salifert to be the best kit so far.

 

[JohnnyB in SD]

Hey guys n gals. Im in the planning stages of an ATS, and Im unsure how I can plumb it into my existing setup. Extremely tight budgets, so a separate pump is out of the question. Here is a MS Paint diagram of what I am wanting to do. But what Im thinking is to run the full siphon return thru the ATS bar, then bring what ever is not sent down the ATS screen continues over to my skimmer. Can this work?

Thanks Yall

I'm all about minimizing pumps as well.
My scrubbers are fed from the full siphon drains. Works very well.
"¢ The way you have it depicted in the second sketch, water wouldn't flow across the sump from the ATS to the skimmer. It would flow down over the screen into the sump chamber below.
"¢ Minimize the pipe length, elbows, and other restrictions between the drain and ATS slot pipe to get maximum GPH.
"¢ Measure how much flow you're actually getting and size screen accordingly.
"¢ I put ball valves right before the ATS unit. It stops flow when you want to remove scrubber for maintenance & such, and you may have to dial flow back a little especially after cleaning the screen.

Not sure why you have a T on the return line?
You might look at something like this.

 

[_shorty_]

I've found Potassium dosing to be a significant factor in optimizing my ATS harvests. If I don't dose, levels rapidly drop toward 300ppm and algae becomes dark, slimy, and weak. AT 400ppm I get green turf, even out of my CFL unit. The LED waterfall puts out so much thick green algae that it makes me grin from ear to ear every time I clean it.
My 240gl system is going through approximately 500ml /month of Potassium Chloride solution, equivalent in concentration to Brightwell Potassion, made from Now Foods powder purchased from iherb.com
I've looked at incorporating Potassium Sulfate into the mixture, but decided excess chloride ions is probably not a critical consideration at current dosage levels.
If you've got a proper scrubber but you're still not getting good to great algae, I'd suggest testing Potassium levels and see where they're at. I've found Salifert to be the best kit so far.

Thank you! Ordering test kit and K tonight. You try to keep levels at what?.. 400 ish?

 

[nanomania]

iv read somewhere, that potassium sulphate is the best way for dosing potassium....

 

[nanomania]

Hey guys n gals. Im in the planning stages of an ATS, and Im unsure how I can plumb it into my existing setup. Extremely tight budgets, so a separate pump is out of the question. Here is a MS Paint diagram of what I am wanting to do. But what Im thinking is to run the full siphon return thru the ATS bar, then bring what ever is not sent down the ATS screen continues over to my skimmer. Can this work?

Thanks Yall

Im a single pump fan anyways, i hav 1 pump that runs my chiller and return flow.

 

[JohnnyB in SD]

Thank you! Ordering test kit and K tonight. You try to keep levels at what?.. 400 ish?

Natural seawater levels are 400ppm.
Mine was way under 300 when I first measured. Now varies between 380-420.
Let us know what happens for you.

 

[_shorty_]

Natural seawater levels are 400ppm.
Mine was way under 300 when I first measured. Now varies between 380-420.
Let us know what happens for you.

Will do. I ordered the stuff last night. Just cleaned screens a couple days ago... so I'll have to maybe wait to start dosing until I do my next cleaning, so I can record my levels and take some better comparison photos.

iv read somewhere, that potassium sulphate is the best way for dosing potassium....

I'm sure this has already been discussed, but does anyone know why K-suphate K2SO4 would be better than K-chloride KCL? K-sulphate adds sulfer, K-chloride actually adds Chlorine - which on the surface sounds worse - but apparently is already naturally occuring in salt water (I'm guessing the ocean), since wikipedia explains the following:

"Potassium chloride occurs naturally as sylvite, and it can be extracted from sylvinite. It is also extracted from salt water and can be manufactured by crystallization from solution, flotation or electrostatic separation from suitable minerals. It is a by-product of the making of nitric acid from potassium nitrate and hydrochloric acid."

Either way, assuming our algae is consuming the Potassium and leaving either the Chlorine or the sulfer and Oxygen behind - which is worse? The chlorine or sulfer? Either way - neither sounds TOO bad... But I'm assuming an excess of either IS bad.

 

[JohnnyB in SD]

I am not a chemist, which is why I go by Randy HF's explanation regarding Magnesium dosing and apply his logic to Potassium. Which in a nutshell is, a combination of MgCl & MgSO4 is used to avoid an unbalanced accumulation of either Chloride or Sulfur ions. Oxygen doesn't matter.
When I first started correcting my K levels, I used large amounts of Brightwell, which is a mixture of Mg Chloride & Sulfate, presumably in the optimum ratios. I essentially bought all the stock off the shelves in the area LFS's = $$$ = gotta find another way.
In my particular situation, I use large amounts of Recipe 3 for Magnesium supplementation of my WC makeup water - we're talking 10-12 liters /month. I figure an additional 500ml/month of straight KCl for maintenance dosing is insignificant in the scope of things. Your situation will be different, especially if you've got a smaller system and do no other dosing.
But either way, IMO excess Cl ions probably aren't going to make a big difference in the short term. If you read Randy's detailed discussion regarding ions in seawater, you won't loose any sleep over it. But for the record, I do plan to acquire and incorporate some K2SO4 sooner than later. If we want a precise recipe for homemade Potassium supplementation, then we should try & enlist Randy's advice. I did try that in another thread regarding biopellets & Potassium dosing, basically got overlooked or ignored and never pursued it.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Also remember that Chlorine and Chloride are not the same. Let's not get too detailed here about the chemistry but the concept here is not pushing something out of solution by saturating it with something else, which only really matters on the long term when not doing PWCs.

Johnny do you have a link to the RHF thread about ions in seawater, i"m too lazy ATM to look for it.

Also an FYI, the label on Brightwell's Potassion-P mixing instructions is incorrect. I pointed it out to Chris and he noted it and said it will be corrected.

Me:

According to my calculations based on the numbers on the label, 5g of powder in 8 fl oz (236 mL) would mean that if each mL increased the K of 1 G of water by 1.7 ppm, then 236 mL would increase 1G about 400 ppm. Divide that by 5g of powder used to make the solution and each gram of powder should increase 1G of water by 80 ppm. The label says ~129. So how do you arrive at that number?

Also, I just went to make a batch and was using a digital scale and 1 teaspoon weighs about 7.5g, so how can ~2 teaspoons be 5 g of powder?? Was it supposed to read 15g ~= 2 tsp instead of 5g?

Chris Brightwell: emphasis added. For clarity, PTSP = PoTaSsion-P

It appears that the label has an error. Each gram of PTSP added to 1 US gallon of water will increase the potassium concentration by ~129.3 ppm. 5 grams of PTSP dissolved in 8 fluid ounces of water would increase the potassium concentration by ~10,340 ppm. Diluting 1 mL of that solution into 1 gallon of water would yield an increase of ~2.73 ppm. We will make the necessary revision to the label; please accept my apologies for any inconvenience that this may have caused you.

Regarding the volume-to-mass ratio, it is always advisable to measure dry products by mass and not by volume; the volume recommendation is made simply for reference purposes, but density of the material, and also of the measure, will vary, making volume an unreliable unit of measure when precise calculations are required. The primary reason that volume measurements are included on the labels is for aquarists who don't own an accurate gram scale. They are always encouraged to monitor water parameters with accurate test kits, and to adjust their dosing regimen accordingly. In this fashion, they will be able to closely control water parameters without being overly concerned with the concentrations of the stock solutions that are being prepared.

Photosynthetic organisms extract a considerable amount of potassium from their surroundings as a matter of normal biological and biochemical processes. Any nutrient that becomes in limited supply will act as a biolimiting substance, preventing further uptake of other substances from the system; in this regard, potassium limitation can certainly prevent nitrate and phosphate uptake by photosynthetic organisms.

My summary reply, which was not replied to, but who cares.

So I want to get this straight.

1g PTSP to 1 gal of water will increase K by 129.3 ppm. This is the correct part of the label.

1 gal = 128 oz. 8 oz = 1/16 of a gallon.

5g of PTSP in 8oz water: 5g x 129.3ppm/g x 16 = 10344ppm in that water.

8oz is 236mL. 5g / 236 = 0.0211g dry material per mL of this solution

0.0211g PTSP to 1 gal of water should then increase K by 129.3 x 0.0211 = 2.73ppm

I can see how you would get lost with trying to figure this out using dilution calculations and concentrations - it doesn't work easily...

So what I did was go by the teaspoons and my solution is 3x this, 15g per 8 oz. That means that each mL per gallon of that solution should increase K by 8.19ppm. I still got 20 ppm increase but that may be due to the test kit, 10ppm resolution is not the greatest so that is within likely error from one test to the next.

I also use the Salifert kit and I think it works great. So just be aware that 5g is not 2 tsp of powder, 2 tsp of powder = 15g, and those are level teaspoons, which makes a super-saturated solution that is easily 3x the label concentration.

 

[rgfast]

Thought I'd post a few picture's of my new ATS that I built for my breeding system, screen is 13.5" wide = 472gph so I'm using a Blue-Line 30-HD for flow for lighting 10 660nm and 2 450nm per side with 3watt emitters. I based my build on 12 cubes per day, 6 pairs of clowns being fed 4 times a day

I still need to plumb to emergency overflows hopely this weekend

 

[JohnnyB in SD]

Floyd, Advanced Aquarist April 2004 is some details specific to 2 part dosing.

I've been using Brightwells liquid as cannot find powder. Probably big reason it cost me an arm & leg.

 

[JohnnyB in SD]

Thought I'd post a few picture's of my new ATS that I built...........

NICE WORKSHOP

 

[rgfast]

Thanks it's my 50x50 man cave LOL

 

[sieldan]

I'm all about minimizing pumps as well.
My scrubbers are fed from the full siphon drains. Works very well.
"¢ The way you have it depicted in the second sketch, water wouldn't flow across the sump from the ATS to the skimmer. It would flow down over the screen into the sump chamber below.
"¢ Minimize the pipe length, elbows, and other restrictions between the drain and ATS slot pipe to get maximum GPH.
"¢ Measure how much flow you're actually getting and size screen accordingly.
"¢ I put ball valves right before the ATS unit. It stops flow when you want to remove scrubber for maintenance & such, and you may have to dial flow back a little especially after cleaning the screen.

Not sure why you have a T on the return line?
You might look at something like this.

The T on the return is to feed the refugium and to tune the return flow to the display.

I guess that there isnt enough excess flow to feed both the ATS and a skimmer (while the ATS gets going). Okiedoke. Looks like a complete redesign of my sup. The first left hand pic is how it is currently oriented. Its a pain to move that dang thing too. lol.

Thanks for the ideas tho.

 

[nanomania]

nice build...

 

[_shorty_]

Thought I'd post a few picture's of my new ATS that I built for my breeding system, screen is 13.5" wide = 472gph so I'm using a Blue-Line 30-HD for flow for lighting 10 660nm and 2 450nm per side with 3watt emitters. I based my build on 12 cubes per day, 6 pairs of clowns being fed 4 times a day
I still need to plumb to emergency overflows hopely this weekend

Nice looking build. That's a lot of feeding. You find it helps them stay happier and causes them to be more likely to spawn?