Algae Scrubber Basics

[NMETCALF]

My UAS and some questions about it

My UAS and some questions about it

So I had some theories of my own about this whole algae scrubber thing and I have been testing my theories now for about 6 months and decided I should share and ask for suggestions etc.

I started with one turf algae scrubber inside my overflow with a really bright LED light on top. The screen is basic window screen (not the metal ones obviously) with a plastic frame and sits at an angle in the overflow. I grow great green hair algae on it. it is one sided of course, but was very easy to install and easy to remove and clean and I get about 1.5 cups every two weeks or so when I see its really full.

I then added another one in my second overflow, but with blue and red LED lights. unfortunately the light is dimmer than the other one and I got slightly less growth from that side, although both are still functioning nicely.

So after reading info on the whole upflow algae scrubber thing I decided to try that, and I have a roughed up 12x12 screen in my sump with it lit from only one side, and a few air stones around the bottom of it. The one thing I did that deviates from what most people are doing is the LED light I put on the side of my sump to light it is a 120w Red Orange Blue LED grow light. I gotta say the light makes a huge difference!! I am harvesting a softball sized bunch of very long stringy green algae every other day!

It is mostly growing up to the surface so I can just reach in and pull some out without removing the screen. the screen has only been in for 7 days so it takes some time for it to cover, but the light has just made the growth rate incredible.

So my question is, is this kind of grown overkill? should I not harvest every other day?

One more question, some of my corals aren't doing super great and I can't figure out why, so if you have any suggestions, let me know!!

MY DT is 200g Reef with a lot of fish and corals
I also run a protein skimmer, and a reactor with bio-pellets
Lighting on DT is an Evo Quad 72" LED Fixture and one 250w Metal Halide
tank has been running for 8 months.
I have 4 koralia circulation pumps on wave timers

readings are:
Nitrates 0
Nitrites 0
Ammonia .001ppm
Calcium 490ppm
Phosphates .2 ppm
PH 7.8

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

The right conditions can make all the difference. But, I do have to ask you...a softball sized amount in 2 days?

A softball sized chunk of algae (the size of a very large orange) is about 3 or 4 cups worth. If you are getting this much growth in 2 days from a single sided 12x12 screen, you would be able to probably claim the highest amount of growth per unit time and growth area ever - by about a factor of 5.

There also is really no 'standard' for measurements, but a few of us are working on that, the current method being to drain and squeeze all of the water out, then weighing it, and calculating the growth per unit surface area per day.

 

[_shorty_]

One more question, some of my corals aren't doing super great and I can't figure out why, so if you have any suggestions, let me know!!

MY DT is 200g Reef with a lot of fish and corals
I also run a protein skimmer, and a reactor with bio-pellets
Lighting on DT is an Evo Quad 72" LED Fixture and one 250w Metal Halide
tank has been running for 8 months.
I have 4 koralia circulation pumps on wave timers

readings are:
Nitrates 0
Nitrites 0
Ammonia .001ppm
Calcium 490ppm
Phosphates .2 ppm
PH 7.8

You don't mention alk/kh.. Do you measure that or mag? Kh is extremely important to monitor, especially when running waterfall scrubber, IMO.

 

[SantaMonica]

The waterfall design from 2008 does work, but it's hard for most people to build, and hard to place above a tank or sump. And it can splash. There is also a lot of unused space inside a waterfall scrubber box. The floating scrubber makes use of all the space.

I don't think you can over-scrub. If it's growing, it's good. Also, like your 120w LED on 144 sq in screen, I'm thinking that upflow screens can handle more wattage before burning. I have not seen any yellow rubbery growth on an upflow yet.

 

[NMETCALF]

Yeah, I measured it and was slightly more than 3 cups in 3 days. It's only partially on the screen. Nice dark green stuff. Growing surface area and screen size don't seem to make a huge difference as I'm getting super long spaghetti like growth where a single strand seems like over 2 feet long when stretched out.

I think a huge part if it is the powerful light, and another huge part is that I have a well stocked DT, so there's lots of nutrients available.

I usually measure alk/kh, but ran out of the testing solution, so haven't checked it in a while. I have never tested for mag... Should I? Y?

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Is that 3 cups, drain and squeezed, or 3 "liquidy" cups?

Either way...that's a lot of algae. I'd like to see pics of your setup

Also I have noticed that out of all my users, the ones that have a combination of high fish/bio load/feeding and run biopellets or another carbon dosing scheme in combination with the algae scrubber have by FAR the best growth, as well as the best tank parameters and tank conditions. I'm talking huge harvests. This points to a symbiotic relationship between algal and bacterial filtration techniques. Murray Camp has started to present these findings on his personal tanks in his speeches that he gives at fests.

So your results are kind of a confirmation of what others have told me.

 

[duganderson]

I have noticed that out of all my users, the ones that have a combination of high fish/bio load/feeding and run biopellets or another carbon dosing scheme in combination with the algae scrubber have by FAR the best growth, as well as the best tank parameters and tank conditions.

I don't know a lot about carbon dosing but I understand that it is typically necessary to have a skimmer when you are carbon dosing. Are the folks that you're talking about that are carbon dosing just using a scrubber OR are they using a scrubber and skimmer?

Can you carbon dose effectively/safely with just a scrubber? If so, do you add the same about of vodka, biopellets, etc. as you would if you were running a skimmer?

I have a upflow algae scrubber on my nanocube 28 and would consider carbon dosing. Anyone tried carbon dosing with the Santa Monica UAS?

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Not having much knowledge about CD myself, but I think that you would not want to do carbon dosing without running a skimmer.

The scrubber/skimmer/CD combination is relatively new territory. Until recently it was believed that these 2 competed. I had one guy that started up his tank on pellets and after a month or so put the scrubber on. I thought he would get no growth, but I was proven wrong - his growth skyrocketed. There may also be a lighting spectrum factor here as well, because certain bacteria will be found in the highest concentration where the O2 is being produced, and this happens to be in the deep red and far blue ends of the spectrum, which is what the current recommendation for LEDs for scrubber is composed of - 660nm Deep Red and 440/450nm Royal Blue. Coincidence?

I have recently shifted my opinion regarding skimmers, per many discussions with Murray Camp about their multiple benefits, both known and unknown, aside from actual skimming (nutrient removal), one in particular being gas exchange. This also goes in combination with the effectiveness of maintaining dissolved gasses in the water column for not only the tank, but the scrubber - is seems that keeping dissolved CO2 high helps the scrubber produce, and this is particularly effective (for pump-fed scrubbers) when you place the outlet of the skimmer next to the inlet for the scrubber.

I do not believe this effect (gas exchange) is mimicked by a UAS to anywhere near the extent as it is via a skimmer, as larger bubbles are used/recommended on the UAS and the purpose of these bubbles is to provide water movement/motion for nutrient exchange, not to induce O2/CO2 into the water - that is more effectively done with smaller bubbles, which are not effective on UASs. Real-world testing/experimentation (my own included) has shown that larger bubbles are better, my theory being that larger bubbles provide more water flow and random motion to break through the boundary layer. This is my conclusion (and not set in stone, but not far from it) after a year of seeing people's various builds and effectiveness of difference techniques attempted in the community. When the UAS was released, there was little to no data to go off of - just an idea that looked good on paper.

It is *all* about the boundary layer. The waterfall scrubber works almost without fail in this regard when constructed properly, which is why I feel it is still the best way to go. One can almost without fail predict how well a waterfall scrubber will work before it even sees water, just based on the plan for it.

The UAS has it's place, and IMO that place is smaller systems in which it is not feasible to build a waterfall scrubber, such as nanos and sumpless freshwater tanks (freshwater is a COMPLETELY different animal when it comes to algae scrubbers). But in my opinion from my own experience and from the experiences of many others, the UAS does not scale up well in general - meaning that one cannot rely on a UAS for sole filtration as one could rely on a waterfall scrubber for such.

All that being said, both types of scrubbers have their advantages and their disadvantages, and both have their place in the hobby.

For those who could not feasibly run a waterfall scrubber, or for anyone who wants to just supplement their existing filtration system to include the benefits of an algae scrubber without re-working their entire setup, the UAS is the perfect option. The UAS is easy to maintain and can help cut down on maintenance time and costs (salt, media replacement, etc). But IMO they should not be used as sole filtration based on the current sizing guideline. I underfeed my double sided LED UAS by half, and it is significantly outperformed by a double sided LED waterfall scrubber on a tank that has 3x the volume, and I even feed the UAS tank a little less.

 

[erics3000]

Yeah, I measured it and was slightly more than 3 cups in 3 days. It's only partially on the screen. Nice dark green stuff. Growing surface area and screen size don't seem to make a huge difference as I'm getting super long spaghetti like growth where a single strand seems like over 2 feet long when stretched out.

I think a huge part if it is the powerful light, and another huge part is that I have a well stocked DT, so there's lots of nutrients available.

I usually measure alk/kh, but ran out of the testing solution, so haven't checked it in a while. I have never tested for mag... Should I? Y?

Here is a oldie but goodie about alk and mag. Do you have more info and any pics on that led bulb setup for your scrubber in your fuge??

 

[erics3000]

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-06/rhf/

Sorry forgot to post the link

 

[salty joe]

Floyd, awhile ago someone mentioned a relationship between using a calcium reactor and algae growth. What's your take?

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Never tried it myself, but on paper it looks great. Put the scrubber inlet next to the reactor outlet. Any extra CO2 that is still in the reactor effluent would be taken up by the scrubber, if there is growth. But I believe that a calcium reactor includes a second stage to reduce CO2 / increase pH so I'm not sure what effect it would have...

 

[speedo2wet]

Fantastic thread, the idea makes perfect sense. Seems like we strive in the aquarium hobby to not want algae to grow yet unfortunately it does at some point. Now since algae is part of a reef and wants to grow, why not make a spot for it to be happy and make our DT even healthier.
I'm not saying any other form of filtration is wrong so Don't take it that way. Here's my question as I'm still trying to get through the 100+ pages of thread.
Do most just run an ATS as the filtration only or is it an addition to a refugium?
I'm in the process of starting a 150g tall reef tank since I was fed up with my last tank and have a horrible Bryopsis outbreak. I'm trying to figure out what I want to do for filtration but was thinking of: double overflow mind you, half the filtration going to each side of the sump. On the left would be an ATS and skimmer, on the right would be a refugium and in the middle would be a return pump. The middle would house the heaters, float valve and dosage equipment. I was going to run the ATS directly off the overflow. I was thinking of the verticals ATS lights on both sides.

To much? What do you think, pictures are welcome. Love to see pics of the ATS and setup filtrations.

Funny thing is that my 220 predator tank with live rock and long tentacle Xenia: Maldive sand shark 2.5feet, six line grouper, fox face, I can not grow HA for nothing. I feed live bait shrimp and all food comes from the bait shop, lights are T12 and I dr 6 years old. Filtration is only live rock and a reef octopus skimmer. I've even put a few pieces of my nasty Bryopsis covered rocks in there and it's vanished- the fox face and chocolate chip star fish could have something to do with it. But still crazy right?

Ok. Sorry off subject. Any way your recommendations would be great, I also should note the stand has some nice height room in it so I should be able to do almost anything. I do like the semi box idea above the filtration and I take it that the acrylic would not hinder growth at all and no issues with the lights so close to the acrylic?
I'm sure more questions to come soon. Thanks for creating the thread.

 

[_shorty_]

Floyd, awhile ago someone mentioned a relationship between using a calcium reactor and algae growth. What's your take?

I'm getting set up to try it, so I will definitely post results. I'm still letting my brand new (going on its third week) screen mature, and I'm still piecing together my reactor. I'm waiting for my arduino controller and pH shield now to set up pH control (which costs as much or less than a single pH controller, and I'll be able to do a TON more with the arduino MEGA). The only thing left beyond the controller, is the media itself. Oh, and making a pH probe holder between the stages of my dual stage reactor. I expect within about 2 weeks to have it online.

Haven't 100% decided on the effluent to scrubber 'integration method' yet. I use a pump to supply the scrubber, and worry about precipitation messing with that pump over time if I output effluent straight to the inlet of the pump. (not sure if this is a valid concern or not). My thoughts were to try to drip effluent into a 'T'd vertical line feeding the slotted pipe. From there, I suspect it should mix well and provide some beneficial CO2 saturated water to the algae and reduce bicarbonate absorption. If needed (for pH) I've also thought about coming up with an adjustable 'drip cup' (where I can adjust the depth of the effluent collection cup) that would overflow into the 'T'd vertical line, so that I can somewhat adjust the pH going into the scrubber/system. Hopefully adjustment won't be necessary and the scrubber will raise pH enough to not worry about it.

I am looking forward to seeing how well these pieces of equipment compliment each other. If I can negate the KH usage of the scrubber, and negative the low pH of the reactor, I'll be psych'd.

 

[_shorty_]

Never tried it myself, but on paper it looks great. Put the scrubber inlet next to the reactor outlet. Any extra CO2 that is still in the reactor effluent would be taken up by the scrubber, if there is growth. But I believe that a calcium reactor includes a second stage to reduce CO2 / increase pH so I'm not sure what effect it would have...

I've never run a Ca reactor before so I've been reading about this as the used reactor I found is dual stage. I guess the second stage only affects things about about .1 to .2 pH, dependent on a few factors (effluent flow, the PH out of the first chamber, the size of the second chamber). So your output of the 2nd stage will still (probably) be below 7. Granted - my usage to start out will be much less than the person who gave those numbers, so I may see larger variation between first and second stage pH with slow effluent flow. However, in my understanding so far - either way (single or dual stage) - a typical reactor user would still most likely want to use a collection cup that allows the water to sit in order to let some of the CO2 to gas off.

information referenced from: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8852063
thanks, jdieck.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Do most just run an ATS as the filtration only or is it an addition to a refugium?

Scrubber would tend to outcompete a macro refugium, unless you had a significant bioload. If it was just a pod refugium (live rock) then it might be OK.

I do like the semi box idea above the filtration and I take it that the acrylic would not hinder growth at all and no issues with the lights so close to the acrylic?

No issues with acrylic and light transmission.

 

[_shorty_]

Do most just run an ATS as the filtration only or is it an addition to a refugium?... I do like the semi box idea above the filtration and I take it that the acrylic would not hinder growth at all and no issues with the lights so close to the acrylic?

Welcome. pretty wide variety of users with different setups that use scrubbers. Even the types of scrubbers are growing in variety, now as people try new things.

But some basics: Algae needs NO3 and PO4 to grow. Both are limiting factors in algae growth. So, technically it will compete with your refugium, however some do 'successfully' run both.

Some have viewed skimmers as a competing element - but I don't think this is the case. Even over-sized skimmers rarely take out enough stuff that become N and P - enough to limit your growth much. Even if your growth is limited - both pieces of equipment are doing thier jobs and working together to reduce nutrients (from both ends of the cycle). As Floyd pointed out recently, a skimmer is potentially bennificial to the skimmer as the air contact with water introduces a lot of needed CO2 into the water column - which in turn helps with the photosynthesis of the algae in the scrubber. I think he may have eluded to other potential bennifets as well, but I'm not clear on those yet.

Ideally if running both skimmer and scrubber, you'll probably want to try to output your skimmer straight into the scrubber as best as possible.

 

[speedo2wet]

Aww very well put. That now changes how I'm picturing the filtration. If I look at it that way it would be better to run the ATS from its own pump in a chamber where the skimmer would be (out put) almost like it was recirculating the water in that area, Almost how my skimmer is in my 220 ( in a box by itself, with a lighter flow than the rest of the live rock filtration.) I could have all tank water run through the ATS and skimmer then to live rock for PODs then to my return pump. Basically just want a section to grow pods and critters for food. I believe a deep 4" sand bed and rock becomes very self sustaining after the biological filtration is set up in the main tank.

 

[silverwolf72]

So I had some theories of my own about this whole algae scrubber thing and I have been testing my theories now for about 6 months and decided I should share and ask for suggestions etc.

I started with one turf algae scrubber inside my overflow with a really bright LED light on top. The screen is basic window screen (not the metal ones obviously) with a plastic frame and sits at an angle in the overflow. I grow great green hair algae on it. it is one sided of course, but was very easy to install and easy to remove and clean and I get about 1.5 cups every two weeks or so when I see its really full.

I then added another one in my second overflow, but with blue and red LED lights. unfortunately the light is dimmer than the other one and I got slightly less growth from that side, although both are still functioning nicely.

So after reading info on the whole upflow algae scrubber thing I decided to try that, and I have a roughed up 12x12 screen in my sump with it lit from only one side, and a few air stones around the bottom of it. The one thing I did that deviates from what most people are doing is the LED light I put on the side of my sump to light it is a 120w Red Orange Blue LED grow light. I gotta say the light makes a huge difference!! I am harvesting a softball sized bunch of very long stringy green algae every other day!

It is mostly growing up to the surface so I can just reach in and pull some out without removing the screen. the screen has only been in for 7 days so it takes some time for it to cover, but the light has just made the growth rate incredible.

So my question is, is this kind of grown overkill? should I not harvest every other day?

One more question, some of my corals aren't doing super great and I can't figure out why, so if you have any suggestions, let me know!!

MY DT is 200g Reef with a lot of fish and corals
I also run a protein skimmer, and a reactor with bio-pellets
Lighting on DT is an Evo Quad 72" LED Fixture and one 250w Metal Halide
tank has been running for 8 months.
I have 4 koralia circulation pumps on wave timers

readings are:
Nitrates 0
Nitrites 0
Ammonia .001ppm
Calcium 490ppm
Phosphates .2 ppm
PH 7.8

What kind of light did you put on your scrubber

 

[elviraveloz]

I started a scrubber 10x10 with the design peedo2wet is mentioning. I have a double overflow with 2 sump attached to one each other water flows to left one by gravity. On the right is a section with protein skimmer, uv sterilizer and overflow with sock. On the middle is refugium with chaeto and some rocks. On the left is the ATS with second overflow and two Gen-x 60 external pumps. I feed 8 cubes a day and sometimes 10. I stated the ATS on 02/07/2013. Just last week I stated getting a bright green type of algae on the scrubber. It's double sided with 55 actual watts on each side with 12 inches reflectors. The chaeto keeps growing but my nitrates and phosphates level still the same as the beginning, nitrates are 3ptt and phosphates .26; But the Main tank is in it's glory. No nuisance algae at all and the corals are growing like weed. So far I'm a happy camper.