Algae Scrubber Basics

Thanks Floyd. The vinegar is dosed 24/7 via a dosing pump. IIRC I have it set to dose every 30 minutes, so no large once a day additions.

I'm glad you said to add the scrubber now, because I had planned on waiting until I had it stocked.

As far as the gfo, I can put that on my apex and set it to run however long I want if running it 24/7 while the ats matures is not ideal. Maybe only 12 hours a day, during the middle of when the ats lights are off, and then re-evaluate when the ats is in full swing?
 
Well depending on where your phosphate is currently at, you might be able to run it less than that. The point is that you want to avoid completely bottoming out the phosphate and keeping it there.

For the first few weeks, the scrubber is not going to be doing much 'work' as in there is no base of algae so it will not uptake much if any phosphate. So during this period I would leave everything else alone and just see what happens. This includes leaving your GFO reactor running as is. Then if and only if you see problems getting growth of any kind on the screen, you start to back down the GFO a little at a time, say run it 20 hrs/day instead of 24/7, and then give that a well or so to see what happens.

Take your time and make small changes. Because you might see something and assume that Y is a result of X when it could be something completely different.
 
The vinegar dosing might negatively affect the scrubber growth if you dose it in batches (same with vodka dosing). Biopellets do not seem to have this effect as they are more of a constant source. Neither does the Tropic Marin Bio-Activ product. Again these are only some people's results and may be system dependent (larger systems night not see this effect as noticeably) but it's worth mentioning for anticipating potential issues or at least noticing them as they happen and being aware of the potential cause.

Floyd, Can you explain more on negative affects of 'batch' C dosing on the scrubber? Why do you think this this would happen?
 
It's not anything I have direct knowledge of, it's just what I have seen in other's tanks that have done vodka and vinegar dosing. Different kinds of dosing techniques seem to have different effects. Not sure exactly what the mechanism is that might explain the differences, and there might not be enough data to support the theory that it is source related. But from what I have seen, batch dosing tends to work a bit against algae scrubber growth, while a more controlled and consistent dosing method does not tend to affect growth as much.

Sorry for the non-answer.
 
It's not anything I have direct knowledge of, it's just what I have seen in other's tanks that have done vodka and vinegar dosing. Different kinds of dosing techniques seem to have different effects. Not sure exactly what the mechanism is that might explain the differences, and there might not be enough data to support the theory that it is source related. But from what I have seen, batch dosing tends to work a bit against algae scrubber growth, while a more controlled and consistent dosing method does not tend to affect growth as much.

Sorry for the non-answer.

lol. Thanks. I'm glad you brought it up. I've been playing with carbon dosing but need to quit until I can stay on top of testing and tracking the progress more consistently. I've been preoccupied with raising ocellaris fry lately.
 
Any "batch" or "spike" dosing (even food) is not as good as continuous.

A spike of carbon causes a near-zero level of N and P, and may cause the bacteria to start consuming the algae in search of more N and P. No research on this, just a thought.
 
Any "batch" or "spike" dosing (even food) is not as good as continuous.

A spike of carbon causes a near-zero level of N and P, and may cause the bacteria to start consuming the algae in search of more N and P. No research on this, just a thought.

That's a good thought... If that is the case, one might be able to presume that if levels rise back above 0 again in the system (in large part) it would be due to that same bacteria dieing off before the skimmer can pull it out. If your thought on the attacking the algae is correct - it could compound the issue by causing levels to RISE more than prior to the dose, depending on circumstances. If any of this is true, it might indicate that a continuous method is drastically more efficient and effective than batch carbon dosing. (maybe that's already clear to most and already been determined). I don't know in enough detail of any of this to make any significant speculations, though... :) But I may have to look into setting up some continuous method of dosing before I continue my own trials.
 
When I was dosing kalk (kalk powder soaked in vinegar prior to mixing into top off water) I didn't notice any negative effects. This might have been because of the more continual dosing.
 
That's a good thought... If that is the case, one might be able to presume that if levels rise back above 0 again in the system (in large part) it would be due to that same bacteria dieing off before the skimmer can pull it out. If your thought on the attacking the algae is correct - it could compound the issue by causing levels to RISE more than prior to the dose, depending on circumstances. If any of this is true, it might indicate that a continuous method is drastically more efficient and effective than batch carbon dosing. (maybe that's already clear to most and already been determined). I don't know in enough detail of any of this to make any significant speculations, though... :) But I may have to look into setting up some continuous method of dosing before I continue my own trials.

If you are growing lots of algae, you are already carbon dosing in a continuous fashion. Lots of algal exudate (upto 90 % from memory) are sugars. Algal exudate is around 10% of photosynthetic production, so, all being equal your already adding quite a bit, without other forms of dosing. At least that's my take on it at present. I suppose overdosing may become problematic if adding other forms of carbon dosing.
 
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Good point B. Although do we have numbers on how much carbon by-product is produced by a typical scrubber? I think that is the issue. Plus, since your algal mass is always changing (growing) you don't have a constant number, necessarily. It would also depend on mat thickness, light source, flow rates, etc, which all affect growth rates and that I would assume directly affect production.

It is becoming more and more clear that there is a symbiotic algae-bacteria relationship. How an outside-source of carbon affects this relationship is yet to really be explored.

so at this point, I would say that if you have an aggressive carbon dosing methodology in combination with a large skimmer, when you add a scrubber you may want to back off slightly on the carbon dosing (very slowly) and allow for a balance point to be achieved, then continue to make fine adjustments and monitor closely.
 
Don't know if you have read this before, but it's food for thought;

DOSING SUGAR AND VODKA, OR A GAME OF RUSSIAN ROULETTE?


I am going to quote Eric Borneman on this subject simply because his summarys are brief and to the point. This pretty much sums up a great many things we, as hobbyists are either guilty of, or have been persuaded to try.
Quote " You gotta love aquarists and their perpetual need to add things to tanks. What are people doing that they have such problems growing corals? My hunch is doing things like adding vodka, mud, sugar, majick products, and other things same as they have been since I have been in the hobby. Is it because they have tank issues, because they purposely want to play scientist in some non-scientific way like a tank is a big test tube, or is it the lure of finding something and then marketing it and making their way to fortune and glory? " Unquote.

The theory behind adding sugar or vodka to our aquariums as touted in a great many discussions online goes something like this. There are denitrifying bacteria living within our sand beds, being a bacteria, they use carbon sources as an energy source to do their conversions of nitrates to nitrogen gas. By feeding the aquarium a carbon source such as sugar or vodka, the resultant bacterial bloom kicks the denitrification process into high gear and the nitrates are gobbled up in short order. Which can happen. Sounds great, right? Well, as usual with such methods, those that promote it do so based on only achieving the desired results with no thought given as to other possible consequences. All of which goes back to my rant about learning to be a lot more critical in our thinking.
So what possible consequences could there be? Simply, the bacteria themselves. Since there are a great many bacterial strains within our aquariums at any given time, any addition of carbon sources are going to be of benefit to all bacterial strains. Not just the desirable denitrifying strains. This is what all the proponents of this method fail to mention or consider.
A clue to this being a problem can be found in the study of fish bacterial diseases. Since there can be, and usually is, a great many strains of bacteria in our aquariums, at normal day to day levels, the fishes own immune system is capable of keeping the bacteria at bay. When an overload of nutrients drives the bacterial count up, the fish are unable to ward them off anymore and they can become overwhelmed and infected. The bacterial "pop eye" disease is a good example. Look up the treatment plan for this disease and you will find it recommended to do large water changes and get your nutrient controls in place, when done, the fish, due to the reduced bacterial presence will recover on its own.
This very same result is a very real danger to corals as well. Adding a carbon source (sugar or vodka) to your reef aquarium's water will drive up ALL bacterial counts, which while some strains are busy at denitrifying your water, other strains will be busy trying to infect your livestock. While a healthy coral or fish may be able to ward off initial large scale attacks, and is probably the reason some will claim having obtained great results with this method with no "damage" done. All they achieved was dodging a bullet, this time. Keep on adding sugar or vodka, and sooner or later, a coral or fish is not going to be at its optimal health and become infected and possibly die. Just the act of dosing such substances could very well cause the fish or coral to become more susceptible to this method over time. Having to expend energy and the stresses placed upon its immune system, will sooner or later catch up with it.
Please, Do not be tempted by fads, "new" methods and just plain bad science in an attempt to somehow get around the basics of aquarium reef keeping. Water changes, proper feeding, lighting and stocking levels will take you much farther with a great less risk.

Being a reef tank, with Corals as the (my) only concern. It is the balance of the system, just as is required on the reefs the Corals evolved on, that is imperitive. Although, in a fish only system, elevated bacterial counts also pose a threat to fish. If elevated carbon levels only effected the bacteria that are deep down in a sandbed, then there is no issue. But taking into account that all bacteria are driven by carbon sources, then ALL bacteria have to be taken into account and not just those that we intend the sugar for. Again, I think its simply just a matter of balance.
Every aquarium is going to be different in the amounts of sugars produced and utilized. Some aquariums are so good at nutrient control, very little sugar is produced (by algae). When sugar is added, such a system most likely has plenty of "room" for a bit extra sugar with no ill effects, other aquariums are not so good at nutrient control, and may have quite a bit of sugar (by algae) already available. When sugar is added, such a system does not have the extra "room" and its sugar levels quickly reach the point to where the coral's bacteria turn deadly on them. This (to me) sounds like a logical explanation as to why some tanks seem to "do good" and some tanks "crash and burn" when the same amount of sugar is dosed.
Which then you have to ask - What is my tank's sugar load normally?How much sugar can I add and get away with it?
Since youcan not test to answer those questions, then it becomes simply a question of "Am I willing to take a chance on an unknown and HOPE I get away with it?"
The above also negates any responses of "do an experiment to further the hobby" simply because each and every tank would be greatly different and your one teaspoon per week/month that does so well for you, could very well kill ten other tanks, and it all comes down to (for good reason), the basic tenant of reef keeping: " Thou shalt not add if thou can not test "

Edit - with particular attention to the algae sugar production bit ;)
 
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Don't know if you have read this before, but it's food for thought;
Edit - with particular attention to the algae sugar production bit ;)

good stuff. Thanks Brummie!

edit - SO................ how do I get rid of PO4 AND GFO then? :)

^ that's a joke, btw..
 
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You start dosing N so you can run a P limited system. :) the. You can put even more stuff in your tank

That's what I have been playing with actually, since I've been NO3 limited. BUT, that requires the Carbon... I never realized that algae produced sugars though.
 
That's what I have been playing with actually, since I've been NO3 limited. BUT, that requires the Carbon... I never realized that algae produced sugars though.

If you're algae is producing enough C then maybe you don't have to dose C. If you are N limited you could in theory dose N and if your scrubbers algae was producing enough sugar you could still come out on top and have P be limited.
 
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At $550 Let's just hope the surf 4 doesnt end up to grow corraline algae after 6 months. That's been a major bugbear in my mind. The ineffificient screen cleaning may indeed promote coralline after a while. This surf series may be based on my horizontal (that's how it seems to me anyway), but I'm still not 100% convinced of long term success (that's why I'm still testing mine). You'll probably say "ah yes, but mine is enclosed which reduces internal nutrients, and increases growth" to which I would reply "have you not researched the light:nutrient hypothesis?"

Are you allowed to promote your commercial interests on this thread?
 
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Hmm. Seems the post i was relating to was deleted;
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