outy
New member
You need a skimmer.
For me it is a foundational piece of required equipment for any new person.
So yes I would buy a skimmer, and ca reactor and kalk reactor.
Algae Scrubber Basics
- Thread starter srusso
- Start date
You need a skimmer.
For me it is a foundational piece of required equipment for any new person.
So yes I would buy a skimmer, and ca reactor and kalk reactor.
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
ditto
Crosscuts are not recommended. They seem like a good idea, but what was learned early on is that they work against the system. What happens is that as algae grows on the screen, it gravitates towards the highest flow areas - the slot/screen junction. This causes some blockage so the logical step is to allow for a way to keep flow going, right? Well what happens is that the crosscuts get all the flow and the slot area gets none, and you end up with streaks of flow under the crosscuts and dead (low flow) areas between them. So that idea was abandoned.
With just a straight slot, the water pressure prevents algae from completely sealing up the junction point - if you have enough flow. If you have really low flow per linear inch of slot, then flow will get diverted as algae grows into that area, because the pressure isn't strong enough to keep it at bay.
This is one of the potential downfalls of an overflow-fed system actually, because the water pressure in an overflow system is generated by the water column in the pipe above the slot. As you get some growth into the slot-screen junction, you need more head pressure to "push back" against the growth, and that means the water in the overflow pipe will back up. If you don't have enough physical pipe above the scrubber in order to create this pressure, you hit a point where the tank starts to fill up, lowering the sump level, more top-off, etc...so that's one thing you have to watch for in an overflow fed system. In most cases, it's not an issue. Adding something to block light at the slot/screen junction eliminates the issue completely.
Even with a pump-fed system, you can get growth on the slot, but usually it creeps up the side of the pipe away from the screen, meaning you have to scrub it off when you clean but it doesn't have a significant impact on flow or function over the course of a 10 or even 14 day growth period - but it can, if you are growing a ton of algae in each cycle.
Keeping the top part of the screen un-roughed helps eliminate the issue. Blocking the light solves it as well.
karimwassef
Active member
I don't know why you would think that ATS and a skimmer are exchangeable. They perform very different functions.
They may share one element and that's oxygenation, but otherwise, they export different materials.
A skimmer exports excess food and organic compounds. It removes them as solid and liquid waste. It does nothing for inorganics. This allows you to feed without worrying about the captive reef becoming chocked up with excess waste product (like using a bathroom).
An ATS exports inorganic nutrients (N, P) through sequestration into the algae growth. This captures the nutrients that are created when bacteria consume the organics and break them down. This is ammonia from waste converting to nitrite, then nitrate, and here the algae kicks in to absorb nitrate and phosphate and bind it.
I guess it's like deciding between a pump and a light... You need both because they do different things.
You could argue about whether you need a GFO if you have an ATS... Or if you need a DSB... Or if you need carbon dosing... Those are all working to solve the inorganic nutrient issue.
Just my $0.02
They may share one element and that's oxygenation, but otherwise, they export different materials.
A skimmer exports excess food and organic compounds. It removes them as solid and liquid waste. It does nothing for inorganics. This allows you to feed without worrying about the captive reef becoming chocked up with excess waste product (like using a bathroom).
An ATS exports inorganic nutrients (N, P) through sequestration into the algae growth. This captures the nutrients that are created when bacteria consume the organics and break them down. This is ammonia from waste converting to nitrite, then nitrate, and here the algae kicks in to absorb nitrate and phosphate and bind it.
I guess it's like deciding between a pump and a light... You need both because they do different things.
You could argue about whether you need a GFO if you have an ATS... Or if you need a DSB... Or if you need carbon dosing... Those are all working to solve the inorganic nutrient issue.
Just my $0.02
SantaMonica
Well-known member
Not at all. Why remove food particles? And not remove nutrients?
Those are food particles. Better to let them stay in the water and feed the corals; that's what corals eat.
Most reef tanks are saturated with oxygen already, unless you are dosing carbon.
Another bonus of no skimmer, and no other mechanical filters, is that the large amount of food particles in the water (like a reef has) will develop really thick natural periphyton on the rocks, which adds a tremendous amount of natural filtration and food generation.
karimwassef
Active member
IME, the quantity of food I use cannot sit long enough to decompose in the tank. It does not create healthy water conditions. I skim, I use ATS and I feed large quantities. I would rather inject a constant stream of fresh food & export any excess than let the corals sit in day old decomposing food particles.
Also, fish waste is good at some level, but with the number of fish and the feeding level I have, it would turn the tank into a waste "mess". So, I skim and ATS. For me, it's necessary. I have an army of sea cucumbers and sand full of worms to keep up with the waste output as is. My cucumbers came in at 6" and are now twice as long and thicker.
I have a very thick layer of periphiton and constant mass of planktonic fauna. It's about feeding and exporting regularly. The real trick is to remove socks, fake sponges, and other mechanical filters that destroy the plankton base and create waste factories. I run all open flow.
Also, IME, the high oxygenation allows me to run at much higher temperatures. I run at 84F now and that results in extremely fast growth rates, especially when combined with a high feeding level.
Here's a vid of my last skimmer maintenance:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/oa8-J1eITCs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Also, fish waste is good at some level, but with the number of fish and the feeding level I have, it would turn the tank into a waste "mess". So, I skim and ATS. For me, it's necessary. I have an army of sea cucumbers and sand full of worms to keep up with the waste output as is. My cucumbers came in at 6" and are now twice as long and thicker.
I have a very thick layer of periphiton and constant mass of planktonic fauna. It's about feeding and exporting regularly. The real trick is to remove socks, fake sponges, and other mechanical filters that destroy the plankton base and create waste factories. I run all open flow.
Also, IME, the high oxygenation allows me to run at much higher temperatures. I run at 84F now and that results in extremely fast growth rates, especially when combined with a high feeding level.
Here's a vid of my last skimmer maintenance:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/oa8-J1eITCs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
jerseypete
New member
Question here guy. And girls if there's any. If I put this on my scrubber do you think the wife would let me get a bigger tank. Odds of working? Nothing says I love you like an algea covered heart.
mntbiker2008
New member
Exactly what I was looking for! Thank you!
iced98lx
New member
Just so we're clear, your position is "you don't need a skimmer because you can just wait until all waste breaks down enough for a scrubber to uptake it"?
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
question here guy. And girls if there's any. If i put this on my scrubber do you think the wife would let me get a bigger tank. Odds of working? Nothing says i love you like an algea covered heart.
lol
jason2459
Well-known member
I don't think there's any kind of study on what the avg or common aquarium oxygen levels are. And even then there's going to be those well below and above those averages.
Plus, the majority of the ocean's surface levels are supersaturated in oxygen due to phytoplankton.
I would guess the majority of aquariums are under the common ocean levels for oxygen. I know many, including me, have a lot higher CO2 levels which we try and drive down. Both the ATS and skimmer can help each other out do both oxygenate and reduce CO2 levels. Which reducing the CO2 levels will help increase the pH.
Plus, skimmers are not very efficient mechanical filters. Even that amazing monster skimmer posted above that I absolutely love. Like karimwassef mentioned "I have a very thick layer of periphiton and constant mass of planktonic fauna."
SantaMonica
Well-known member
No you don't have to wait. Corals and periphyton and small fish are rapid consumers of all things particulate. Periphyton alone can clear up a tank in an hour that has so many particles that you can't see through it.
Yes there have been several, somewhere.
Exactly... photosynthesis from algae can put more oxygen into the water than air-contact can. If you have enough algae of course.
AZRippster
Diver & Reef Aquarium Nut
I'm not too sure about this statement. I've dove oceans and reefs in various parts of the world since 1990, and wherever I run into areas heavily covered in periphyton, you don't find coral, at least not much. I do believe it aids greatly in natural filtration, but the coral stay away from those areas. It would reason that a heavy periphyton area within a fuge would be good, but I don't think I would want it in my tank.
jason2459
Well-known member
That's kind of a twist of the facts. With out the airwater interaction it wouldn't have been saturated in the first place. And we don't have near the concentration of phytoplankton in our tanks except for those that are cultivating it. I love my ATS but it's not anywhere near as efficient as that.
hkgar
Active member
IME, the quantity of food I use cannot sit long enough to decompose in the tank. It does not create healthy water conditions. I skim, I use ATS and I feed large quantities. I would rather inject a constant stream of fresh food & export any excess than let the corals sit in day old decomposing food particles.
Also, fish waste is good at some level, but with the number of fish and the feeding level I have, it would turn the tank into a waste "mess". So, I skim and ATS. For me, it's necessary. I have an army of sea cucumbers and sand full of worms to keep up with the waste output as is. My cucumbers came in at 6" and are now twice as long and thicker.
I have a very thick layer of periphiton and constant mass of planktonic fauna. It's about feeding and exporting regularly. The real trick is to remove socks, fake sponges, and other mechanical filters that destroy the plankton base and create waste factories. I run all open flow.
Also, IME, the high oxygenation allows me to run at much higher temperatures. I run at 84F now and that results in extremely fast growth rates, especially when combined with a high feeding level.
Here's a vid of my last skimmer maintenance:
Curious about your cucumbers. I have considered getting a couple, but worry about them poisoning the system if they die. Is that a realistic concern?
I think I also run a heavy bio load with 19 fish in my 180 and feed the equivalent of about 4 cubes per day.
I have an ATS, use a skimmer, dose vodka/vinegar and when po4 hits over .02 I run GFO.
Last test was
PO4 .02
Nitrate 5
herring_fish
Crazy Designer
In some cases, periphyton can simply be a sign of a water column that is not as clean as it can be. Coral may not be able to compete for its foot print and may not thrive in less than idea water conditions.
If you like what a skimmer does, that's great but I just want to say that a well designed and properly sized ATS can handle all of the food particle waste that I can put in my tank. I feed ¼ cups at a time, every day because I keep NPS corals.
Of course, at those feeding levels, settling can be a different issue so you have to stir the bottom to re-suspend the food and/or have a good cleanup crew and sand dwellers.
As for gas levels, studies do show that a good scrubber should keep the oxygen levels very close to the saturation point. As we all know, scrubbers consume CO2 and convert to O2.
Compared to the volume of the sea, the shore line is not that big. In the open ocean, wave action that is less than crashing does not do much for oxygen levels, so if there isn't an active store, there isn't much crashing. I believe that phytoplankton does most of the work in the region were it lives.
If you like what a skimmer does, that's great but I just want to say that a well designed and properly sized ATS can handle all of the food particle waste that I can put in my tank. I feed ¼ cups at a time, every day because I keep NPS corals.
Of course, at those feeding levels, settling can be a different issue so you have to stir the bottom to re-suspend the food and/or have a good cleanup crew and sand dwellers.
As for gas levels, studies do show that a good scrubber should keep the oxygen levels very close to the saturation point. As we all know, scrubbers consume CO2 and convert to O2.
Compared to the volume of the sea, the shore line is not that big. In the open ocean, wave action that is less than crashing does not do much for oxygen levels, so if there isn't an active store, there isn't much crashing. I believe that phytoplankton does most of the work in the region were it lives.
hkgar
Active member
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
Talk about timing, just got a FB feed post on this exact thing!!
http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/dissolved-gases-marine-aquaria-saturation-problems-solutions-6496/
http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/dissolved-gases-marine-aquaria-saturation-problems-solutions-6496/
jason2459
Well-known member
The entire surface area of the ocean provides sea air exchange of all kinds. Not just beaches. It's a lot of exchanging that goes on. Gigatons.
Edit: Pilson has a lot of good research, books, articles on this along with the chemistry of the ocean as a whole.
Edit Edit: just a side note that this is an excellent book to start with
An Introduction to the Chemistry of the Sea
http://www.cambridge.org/us/academi...roduction-chemistry-sea-2nd-edition?format=HB
Edit: Pilson has a lot of good research, books, articles on this along with the chemistry of the ocean as a whole.
Edit Edit: just a side note that this is an excellent book to start with
An Introduction to the Chemistry of the Sea
http://www.cambridge.org/us/academi...roduction-chemistry-sea-2nd-edition?format=HB
Last edited:
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