Algae Scrubber Basics

[Barfly]

Here is a great thread on using bleach and/or acid to clean rocks.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1587539

 

[redneckgearhead]

Barfly, are you wanting to set up a ATS?

 

[srusso]

That's a new one. That statement doesn't even make sense and is, imo, preposterous. Please explain.

The scrubber consumes ammo, nitrite, nitrate and phosphates... it is the fuel source for algae to grow... it is these very chemicals people monitor for during the nitrogen cycle...

What part is hard to understand?
Have you setup an algae scrubber? Monitored a tank cycle with an algae scrubber on a tank before?

notice, I used the word "see" which means you will see only a small reading while your cycling, if any...

In no way have I said it will eliminate the nitrogen cycle... just that it makes it hard to "see" in tests...

If your trying to start a fight/argument here on this thread, it ain't happening... Not here...

 

[Barfly]

Barfly, are you wanting to set up a ATS?

Nope, I thought about it for a long time, but after researching both sides of the ATS debate, I decided against it. I currently have a system that reads 0 phosphates on a hanna checker and 0 nitrates on a Salifert kit. The claims that the use of an ats will eliminate dt algae have been greatly exaggerated by some of the ats proponents. My personal observations have proved otherwise and there are better ways to achieve low nitrates and phosphates. Flooding my system with nitrates and phosphates ended up being a method I was not willing to try. IMO, there are much better ways.

That being said, if I had a system that I used natural seawater, intended on not doing any water changes, or used any other type of unconventional method, I would definitely consider using an ATS.

 

[Barfly]

If your trying to start a fight/argument here on this thread, it ain't happening... Not here...

LOL, all I did was give my opinion. Sorry if you consider that wanting to start a fight. Why do you get so offended when somebody does not agree with your methodology and offers a differing opinion?

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

That's a new one. That statement doesn't even make sense and is, imo, preposterous. Please explain.

Algae pulls ammonia, nitrite, etc out of the water. If you start a new tank and the filtration system has an algae scrubber as part of it, the algae will absorb the by-products of the cycling process. This doesn't mean that the cycle is not happening, it means that you won't see the spike in ammonia, followed by nitrite, then nitrate on your test kits.

Let's say you're dosing ammonia during a fishless cycle. What normally happens (no scrubber) is that you have a large presence of ammonia, which spurs the bacteria to start growing and consuming that ammonia, and then your nitrites start to rise until that colony gets a foothold.

With the algae scrubber running, the algae will consume both of these out of the water column, so you won't see the effects of this cycle occurring. The cycle still happens. It might take longer for the colony to get fully established, but what essentially happens is that the peaks are eliminated and you have a more gradual rise in the size of the bacterial colony.

One could argue, based on that explanation, that an algae scrubber in effect lengthens or delays the cycling process. But really that would take some true experimentation to prove, because the bacterial conversion of ammonia to nitrite to nitrate happens quickly and almost instantaneously in a fully cycled system, so you would have to start a tank and then harvest some rock and analyze the lifeforms present, etc, and then compare that to a normally cycling tank. So instead, I just follow what logically makes sense.

If you start a tank and cycle normally, then add a scrubber, the bacterial colony will adjust to the bio-load that it 'sees'. If you start a tank with a scrubber, the bacterial colony will grow to the exact same size. Reactions still happen, and the colony still grows, and the end result whether you start with a scrubber or add it later will eventually result in the same sized bacterial colony.

At least, that's how I see it, logically.

 

[redneckgearhead]

Nope, I thought about it for a long time, but after researching both sides of the ATS debate, I decided against it. I currently have a system that reads 0 phosphates on a hanna checker and 0 nitrates on a Salifert kit. The claims that the use of an ats will eliminate dt algae have been greatly exaggerated by some of the ats proponents. My personal observations have proved otherwise and there are better ways to achieve low nitrates and phosphates. Flooding my system with nitrates and phosphates ended up being a method I was not willing to try. IMO, there are much better ways.

That being said, if I had a system that I used natural seawater, intended on not doing any water changes, or used any other type of unconventional method, I would definitely consider using an ATS.

Ok as has been stated before, this thread is for people that want to build an ATS, and have questions about it or just want to post their progress. We can not and will not debate the effectiveness of this system compared to others. We encourage people to do their own research and make the decision to build and ATS if they so choose. You can start your own thread to debate it if you like. Thanks Scott.

 

[srusso]

LOL, all I did was give my opinion. Sorry if you consider that wanting to start a fight. Why do you get so offended when somebody does not agree with your methodology and offers a differing opinion?

Good, I saw "That statement doesn't even make sense and is, imo, preposterous. Please explain." as aggressiveness. Then I apologize.

I hope I clarified myself well enough then?

 

[Barfly]

The scrubber consumes ammo, nitrite, nitrate and phosphates... it is the fuel source for algae to grow... it is these very chemicals people monitor for during the nitrogen cycle...

What part is hard to understand?
Have you setup an algae scrubber? Monitored a tank cycle with an algae scrubber on a tank before?

Well if you are starting a new tank, I would assume that the ATS is also new. I find it hard to believe that a new ATS screen is going to have much effect on a new tanks cycle. A blank screen will have little effect on the "chemicals" you mention. By your assumptions, better results could be had if a fuge with macro was added to a new tank.

To answer your other questions...

Yes, I have set up an algae scrubber on a friends tank. (The ATS was later removed for the obvious reasons)

Yes, I have monitored a cycle with an ATS in use.

HTH

 

[srusso]

Well if you are starting a new tank, I would assume that the ATS is also new. I find it hard to believe that a new ATS screen is going to have much effect on a new tanks cycle. A blank screen will have little effect on the "chemicals" you mention. By your assumptions, better results could be had if a fuge with macro was added to a new tank.

To answer your other questions...

Yes, I have set up an algae scrubber on a friends tank. (The ATS was later removed for the obvious reasons)

Yes, I have monitored a cycle with an ATS in use.

HTH

Sorry the algae scrubber didn't work for your friend, maybe you can post some pictures of the setup and we could help troubleshoot it for you? When was it built? What style? Open or closed? Specs of the algae scrubber and tank would help also.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Well if you are starting a new tank, I would assume that the ATS is also new. I find it hard to believe that a new ATS screen is going to have much effect on a new tanks cycle. A blank screen will have little effect on the "chemicals" you mention. By your assumptions, better results could be had if a fuge with macro was added to a new tank.

To answer your other questions...

Yes, I have set up an algae scrubber on a friends tank. (The ATS was later removed for the obvious reasons)

Yes, I have monitored a cycle with an ATS in use.

HTH

I posted about this too but the page advanced...so you might have missed it. Just FYI.

RE: your point also about new ATS and new tank, I thought about that but forgot to put that in there. ATS screens start up pretty fast, but there is still a ramp-up to full capacity. So you may see some ammonia, etc, but nowhere near what you would see during a normal cycle. Plus, by the end of the cycle, you won't have to do the big PWC to knock the nitrates down.

Regarding the other tank with the rampant algae, there may have been a reason why it didn't work. We would just be discussing it after the fact now though.

 

[Barfly]

Good, I saw "That statement doesn't even make sense and is, imo, preposterous. Please explain." as aggressiveness. Then I apologize.

I hope I clarified myself well enough then?

After rereading my post, I can now see how you jumped to that conclusion. It certainly was not my intent to be argumentative. I was honestly just curious about how you came to conclusion that a new ATS would have any effect on a new tank cycle. I'm assuming that the person setting up a new tank does NOT have an established ATS to put in use.

Ok as has been stated before, this thread is for people that want to build an ATS, and have questions about it or just want to post their progress. We can not and will not debate the effectiveness of this system compared to others. We encourage people to do their own research and make the decision to build and ATS if they so choose. You can start your own thread to debate it if you like. Thanks Scott.

If you honestly believe that only discussing the pros of a certain subject is what's best for this thread, so be it. I completely disagree with your position. I would think that the proponents of an ATS system would welcome dissenting opinions. I guess the problem stems over what has transpired in other threads when the ATS advocates were asked to provide real answers or proof of some of the outlandish claims being made. The questions were proposed by some of the more advanced members of this forum and the ATS proponents were unable to provide verifiable answers.

I see now that this thread is more about promoting the use of an ATS, rather than a true source of real data concerning their effectiveness. Unless a question is posed to me directly, I will refrain from further posting in this thread. My apologies for interrupting. Good luck!

 

[srusso]

I guess the problem stems over what has transpired in other threads when the ATS advocates were asked to provide real answers or proof of some of the outlandish claims being made. The questions were proposed by some of the more advanced members of this forum and the ATS proponents were unable to provide verifiable answers.

I see now that this thread is more about promoting the use of an ATS, rather than a true source of real data concerning their effectiveness. Unless a question is posed to me directly, I will refrain from further posting in this thread. My apologies for interrupting. Good luck!

I as well as others, have provided a lot of research in this thread. Please read it. I understand its a long one now, but the first half covers most questions. It was a lot of work and others have helped a great deal.

"I see now that this thread is more about promoting the use of..."

The only thing that clear here is that your haven't read the thread...

 

[Barfly]

The only thing that clear here is that your haven't read the thread...

Sorry, but just another wrong assumption on your part. I have indeed read every page of THIS thread, as well as, many others. I just happened to form a differing opinion after doing the research with an open mind. And BTW, my opinions about an ATS are shared by many experienced and professional hobbyists.

 

[srusso]

maybe you can post some pictures of the setup and we could help troubleshoot it for you? When was it built? What style? Open or closed? Specs of the algae scrubber and tank would help also.

Barfly, would love to have you comment on the above questions.

 

[bucks448]

This is probably the time that everyone should agree to disagree.


Back OT:

Well, I'm not sure what to do. I'm at a loss...

I feel I've been doing everything right, but things continue to get worse than better.

I was gone for a week, and fed with an auto feeder flake food 2-3 times a day. I had a person come in and check the top off and feed some frozen food. He's a reefer so I'm sure he didn't over feed. Plus the ATS and skimmer are going.

Well, in that time I had a power outtage and lost 4-5 of my 8 fish... He got them out not long after they had died (up to 12 hours possibly...). Corals and everything were fine and 3 fish survived for sure. 1 is still missing.

Anyways, that's not why I'm writing this. Even before this happened and after it, the briopsis, Hair algae, film algae, have all continued to get worse in the display.

I have ATS running with 4 23W CFL bulbs 18 hours a day. Screen is 10 by 13 for my 125g + half full 30 gallon sump and around 80-100lbs of rock and DSB in sump.

I have skimmer going constantly pulling out black stuff, and The ATS consistantly fills in with film algae.. I have macro algae on my power heads in the display that I harvest 6-8" of macro a week.

I have chaeto in my sump that I harvest (in half or more) once every 2-3 weeks.

I have 6 mangrove roots that are leafing out nicely and growing quite well.

I don't know what else to do!! The briopsis and hair algae continue to thrive with all that I'm doing! I Have a massive export system, but nothing touches the stuff...

Am I better off scrapping my rock and starting over? It's just really disappointing to look at with corals just being overtaken by briopsis and ha.

You've got a lot of export, maybe it's limiting what's getting to the scrubber. I'm sure Floyd can better evaluate this than I.

 

[Swanwillow]

I had to pull my ATS off my tank-and I can tell the algae outbreak is now happening. I really need to get a under tank tank going for it. Should happen in the next few weeks. Until then, I'm crossing my fingers that my algae outbreak doesn't go TOO insane. Even if I am winning against bryopsis!

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

If you honestly believe that only discussing the pros of a certain subject is what's best for this thread, so be it. I completely disagree with your position. I would think that the proponents of an ATS system would welcome dissenting opinions. I guess the problem stems over what has transpired in other threads when the ATS advocates were asked to provide real answers or proof of some of the outlandish claims being made. The questions were proposed by some of the more advanced members of this forum and the ATS proponents were unable to provide verifiable answers.

I would love to have a thread started where people didn't get into a urinating contest about what is considered fact and what is considered bunk. Every time it is attempted the thread takes off and gets closed. That is why we purposely make an effort to not go down this road, as we wanted a thread for people that had decided that an ATS was for them and they wanted to build one. Occasionally, as happened today, we get off topic. Thanks to those that pointed it out.

I see now that this thread is more about promoting the use of an ATS, rather than a true source of real data concerning their effectiveness. Unless a question is posed to me directly, I will refrain from further posting in this thread. My apologies for interrupting. Good luck!

As stated above this thread is for assisting those who want to build an ATS, and we're here to help troubleshoot as well. Sometimes I feel it is useful for someone to understand the 'why' rather than just telling them what to do. So you see this now and then but I try to keep it reeled in so this thread doesn't take off too far off topic.

So if you choose to view it as promoting the use of an ATS, so be it. But that's not how I see it, I see this as showing others how to properly build and maintain an ATS once they have decided to build one. Yes, there will be some that read the thread and then decide to try one. Just like I read BeanAnimal's thread and wanted to try a 3-pipe system with a weir. Or how I read a thread on how to build my own tank stand and did that. There's LED threads and driver board threads. They're out there for people who want to learn how to do it, and some people decide after reading them that they're going to do it. So how is this thread any different from those?

The 'true source of real data concerning their effectiveness' is the topic we don't get into here. It's not because that information is not out there, and it's not because we don't want to share that information. It's because we've seen what happens when this topic is delved into and we would rather see this thread continue.

This is probably the time that everyone should agree to disagree.

Yep.

 

[Barfly]

I would love to have a thread started where people didn't get into a urinating contest about what is considered fact and what is considered bunk.

So if you choose to view it as promoting the use of an ATS, so be it. But that's not how I see it, I see this as showing others how to properly build and maintain an ATS once they have decided to build one. Yes, there will be some that read the thread and then decide to try one. Just like I read BeanAnimal's thread and wanted to try a 3-pipe system with a weir. Or how I read a thread on how to build my own tank stand and did that. There's LED threads and driver board threads. They're out there for people who want to learn how to do it, and some people decide after reading them that they're going to do it. So how is this thread any different from those?

The 'true source of real data concerning their effectiveness' is the topic we don't get into here. It's not because that information is not out there, and it's not because we don't want to share that information. It's because we've seen what happens when this topic is delved into and we would rather see this thread continue.

That's just it. If the ATS supporters had some REAL data to prove the claims being made, I would be using one right now. Unfortunately that has yet to happen. The difference between this thread and BeanAnimals thread is that Beananimal DID provide indisputable scientific evidence to his ideas, and had no problem offering up the 'true source of real data'.

Indisputable scientific evidence = no argument

Alright, I had no intention of taking this thread off topic. This all started because I was trying to warn a potential new hobbyist from thinking that they can use an ATS and avoid or minimize a cycle. IMO, that is one of the more outlandish claims made to date.

To be honest, I really have no personal opinion on using an ATS. It's just that I have yet to see any real answers to many of the questions that are asked concerning the potential negative effects on a closed system, or the extra benefit over a traditional fuge.

 

[Travis1787]

At the end of the day every before after picture or in person of an ats I've seen you can see the good to having one much cleaner less algae in tank and healthy looking so I was sold of setting one up still in the works but hey if it doesn't work for me it will be worth the try and its cheap and easy enough to setup or take down