Algae Turf Scrubber ?

[lilredwuck]

Something I learned is EVERY situation is different even if minute. (Pronunciation: \ mī-ˈnüt, mə-, -ˈnyüt \ ) (very small)
Some people think one skimmer s**ks and one has great success with it. Dailing, tuning, situation, etc. There are lots of people out there, and even more opinions.

 

[Jstdv8]

I don't know what caused that but skyrocketing nitrates is not ever the result of living algae. Anyone that puts some cheato macro algae in their sump and puts a light on it will see downward movement in their nitrates. A "œTRUE" ATS is just the same thing done right. I used to even add fish fertilizer when I was trying to get reef plants to grow in the tank. No nitrate spikes. You obviously had a problem somewhere, design or installation. I would think that it was the latter, If a manufacturer tries to get around a patent, there is no telling what he'll come up with.

Obviously, one can't flip a switch one day, turning off the skimmer and turning the lights on over the scrubber. The turf has to get fully developed and then you would back off the skimmer slowly. "¦but if you like your skimmer, stick with it.



As for SM. He has a very strong personality and got a lot of flack for the way that he said thinks so the decided to leave and do his own thing. I have tried to get him to mitigate some of his statements "¦and read a little more but he believes what he believes. I think that he is an electrical engineer but he makes a living as a marketeer. I believe that bleeds over into his hobby. I certainly wouldn't vouch for anyone I have never seen but, as I said, I think that his hart is in the right place.

He did like my idea (via the book) that putting fans on the screen can lower the temperature in the main tank. Despite our previous discussions, he wrote that turbulence was not important. Many papers around the net and Dr. Adey's work would indicate that turbulence can add as much as 50% to the efficiency of a scrubber. I simply suggested that he soften his comment to indicate that he has made up for the lack of turbulence in his designs by doubling the surface area with his two sided screen. He was adamant and didn't want to consider what others have shown to be true.

I know that he ticked off some people. So what if he's a little rough around the edges. He does have a lot of good information and some good designs that you can steal if you want to.

Thanks, thats pretty much how I feel about his product and approach.

 

[wdt2000]

The patents on scrubbers have long since expired;

Are you sure, I recall reading that it will expire this year on one of the blogs.

 

[wdt2000]

Are you sure, I recall reading that it will expire this year on one of the blogs.

Here is the info on the patent
http://************.com/2010/01/16/adeys-algae-turf-scrubber-ats-patent-will-expire-this-year/

"Dr. Adey’s U.S. Patent No. 5,097,795 will apparently expire on October 30, 2010."

 

[KafudaFish]

Hey Herring,

Do you have any pictures of your ATS?

 

[herring_fish]

The splash is not necessary at all. It is just there because I like it.

This is a Youtube flick of it. Please note that I was setting it up and the wires needed to be moved. I moved the bottom shelf up and down until I got the right amount of visual splash as apposed to splash sound. I like it just like that WHEN THE DOOR IS CLOSED. My old tank had very little splash. It was much like my avatar picture on the right. Once you get used to it you often learn to love the crashing sound. ...or hate it. It's very relaxing. ..but it's not for everyone. The splash doesn't add to the scrubbers efficiency at all.

The scrubber does work better because of the tipping action but there are other ways to get water motion inside the scrubber. This tipping causes turbulence water motion. As I said above, turbulent brakes down boundary layers and prevents matting. With this turbulence, I can go without scraping the screen for longer periods of time, if needed, without adverse effects from the lower strands not getting enough exposure to light and passing water.

I don't even use a screen although I don't recommending others copy that. After a long time of using the screen, the algae started growing right on the plastic so I stopped using one. I get a long stringy algae the looks like Easter Basket cellophane. I just grab a handful once a week and throw it away.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRoKX8AjEbI

Where is the red house icon these days to see your web site?

This is mine http://asaherring.com

 

[Masoch]

Here is the info on the patent
http://************.com/2010/01/16/adeys-algae-turf-scrubber-ats-patent-will-expire-this-year/

"Dr. Adey's U.S. Patent No. 5,097,795 will apparently expire on October 30, 2010."

RC at my original response

Anyway, have you read Adey's patent? Lots of stuff about "horizontal", "pivots", and "surges". Not so much stuff about "vertical", "fixed" and "continuous flow". Adey's scrubber is about as close to SM's as either are to growing algae in a refugium. Same basic idea (export algae, boost oxygen, etc.), radically different implementations.

 

[Michael]

As for SM. He has a very strong personality and got a lot of flack for the way that he said thinks so the decided to leave and do his own thing.

nope he was moved on, i know why, but wont say in case i break the user agreement in any way.

 

[Michael]

I know that he ticked off some people. So what if he's a little rough around the edges. He does have a lot of good information and some good designs that you can steal if you want to.

he does have good ideas, all the reefers here and everywhere else on the web gave them to him, and hes now built a unit for sale in the usa, i do commend him for his enthusism.

 

[KafudaFish]

Herring
Thanks for the descriptions and the video. I do find it interesting.


I am curious though especially after I visited SM's site. I always thought one of the big selling points for ATSs was the cost of the unit especially if one DIY one. I remember when SM set things up and used less than $50 in supplies. Now the commerical unit is $650.00.

Why would someone spend that amount if another piece of equipment (skimmers) can do just as well and cost less to purchase and now less to operate?

I am not bashing the science and methods just the cost aspect I guess. It does not seem very logical then.

 

[teesquare]

Can anyone direct me to pics or additional video of alagal truf scrubbers in action on a system?

Admittedly - it has been years since I visited with Dr. Adey, and - my conclusions about them - are not that positive...
Would like to see if the problems of water coloration, and re-release of nutrients have been conquered.
Thanks,
T

 

[zygote2k]

I used to use a dump bucket style ATS, but have found that a simple refugium packed with chaeto does a better job and is very simple to maintain. I also use a remote DSB too. My SPS grow very well with this system.

No skimmer either- waste of money.

 

[wdt2000]

Can anyone direct me to pics or additional video of alagal truf scrubbers in action on a system?

T

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYiWOxdliiA

http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26

I also think Inland Aquatics may have some running, I think they use to make them as well.

 

[teesquare]

I have seen the ones at Inland Aquatics. The water seems to have a distinctive yellow cast,
And - thanks Will.

T

 

[herring_fish]

If you are interested in Doing It Yourself, you have lots of choices. I don't what to get into a fight about whether some curly CPs, from Home Depot and some plastic is cheaper than a pump for the a venturi valve and some other plastic. Nor do I want to fight about whether the light bill is cheaper or more expensive than the bill for running the skimmer motor because..I don't know, I might loose. The few cents either way doesn't matter to me.

Both systems have worked for me in the past and I am happy with my current choice ...for now. It sounds corny but one method will speak to your hart more than the other. It's not worth fighting over. This isn't religion or politics. I hope that we are just having fun here ...aren't we?

SM admittedly asked for help with his designs. Heck, I even helped him. If he wants to sell a scrubber, more power to him. If you want to sell one, go for it. I'm a designer and I might even help you, no cost.

There are a lot of designs out there to choose from. SM has designs offered up for every one to see and copy. Dr. Adey published a text book of pioneering work, scientific studies and designs, all for the price of the book or a trip to the library. Just pick a design. I have talked to both of them and they both have something to contribute. If you want to sell a scrubber and call it an Algal Turf Scrubber (ATS), you might have a problem aside from the patent because I'm sure that it's trade marked.

On the other hand if you just want to buy something off the shelf, a skimmer is probably a cheaper way to go because there aren't that many people in the market.

Yellow water has always been called out as a problem. You do need to clean your screen regularly, particularly if you don't agitate the water in the scrubber. I don't get yellowing unless I drastically over feed. That is just from the food. When I do, I put some carbon in a sock and throw it in the bucket.

I also have a refugium, after Adey and Tyree. There isn't much light on it and no cheato. Does that make me bad?

Can't we just get along?

 

[teesquare]

Sounds like I stepped on your toes with my questions...Not my intent Herring.
My questions were actually aimed at trying to learn if there have been any new developments to improve on algal scrubbers. Not that they are bad - ( just like with skimmer design, it continues to change and improve, right?) but they have different properties than other methods.
So - if I you mis-undertood - my apolgies.
Heck - I even thanked Will for his info directing me to a couple of sites! ( for me- that is something)

T

 

[herring_fish]

It's all good.

After reading and posting in several of these scrubber threads, I find they often descend into a fight over which is better (ATS or Skimmer, Adey or SM etc.) and then hard feelings. A pound of prevention....

Most of the development has been in inexpensive design after SM. I have access to a high end CAD system and a machine shop so I like the full fledged ATS but if you want something cheap and simple SM's are hard to beat.

As you know Refugiums and deep sand beds are an extension of the more natural way of cleaning the water after Adey, Tyree and others but not too much is new that I know about.

As you also know, cheato in the sump is getting to be very popular. It's simple and builds a little trust in algae.

 

[teesquare]

It's all good.

After reading and posting in several of these scrubber threads, I find they often descend into a fight over which is better (ATS or Skimmer, Adey or SM etc.) and then hard feelings. A pound of prevention....Oh, I would not limit that behavior to just scrbber threads!

Most of the development has been in inexpensive design after SM. I have access to a high end CAD system and a machine shop so I like the full fledged ATS but if you want something cheap and simple SM's are hard to beat.

As you know Refugiums and deep sand beds are an extension of the more natural way of cleaning the water after Adey, Tyree and others but not too much is new that I know about. Yep - All of these have been around a long time for sure. An dno doubt they work for some folks quite well. Every system has trade-offs, and we all are looking for the least amount of down-sides for our individual needs/style of reef-keeping.


As you also know, cheato in the sump is getting to be very popular. It's simple and builds a little trust in algae.

True, but I have still had a yellow tinge in my water using cheato. And - I really can't conribute it to the food...But I can say that plants - of all kinds - can "give-back" some of the captured nutrients. Often, the phenols, creaols and some skatols have been "credited" with color contribution. I do use carbon, but am just exploring other methods right now.
Don't let the negative comments turn you sour on anyone who just plainly questions. Some of us really are just seeking answers, not picking a fight. Not true for all here, I can assure you, but -
try and presume innocence before shooting:wavehand:
And thanks for the help!

T

 

[jenglish]

I have seen the ones at Inland Aquatics. The water seems to have a distinctive yellow cast,
And - thanks Will.

T

It is yellow, but IIRC, they do not run carbon. Running carbon removes the gelbstoff compounds pretty readily. They posit (or at least used to I have not been in there in years) that the natural reef is not as clear as we run our tanks. But the solution is so simple that it hardly bears being a point of contention IMO.

THe IA true ATS was a bit loud, though I would think they would put off less odor than the waterfall style. I think the true ATS had an advantage in pod production as they were mounted above tank and you could see pods wash in during the dump.

 

[teesquare]

Jeremy-
There may be other factors for the yellowing as well. It seems that their lighting was low Kelvin ( maybe 55K?) bulbs, to get as fast growth possible. Soo that too can make water look more yellow.

About the clarity of the water as compared to the reefs....I don't know about that. Mabye the clarity of the natural reefs is worse now, due to enviremental/weather issues. But I do remember as a kid, stnading on the deck of my uncles boat looking as a barrel sponge, and telling my uncle - I wanted it.
He helped me gear up - and I bailed over the side, and stop swimming down toward it at 90 feet of depth:lmao:. At that point - it was as big as a car hood any way.......

But the solution is so simple that it hardly bears being a point of contention IMO.

I must have missed something - what do you mean? That running a little carbon would take care of the color issues?