Algea Scrubbers

[Newb55g]

I am planning a sump system with a waterfall style algea scrubber and am confused on the exact size it should be (screen wise) advice anyone? 55 gal DT 36 gal sump.

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[2smokes]

The algae scrubber size is not dependant by the size of the aquarium.How much you feed matters not the water volume.First ,get an ideea how much you plan to feed and after that you can find an algae scrubber calculator that will tell you how much light and how big the screen and water flow should be.

 

[Newb55g]

Where's a good place to find that calculator?

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[bertoni]

I haven't seen such a calculator. For a 55g system, even a 10-15 gallon refugium would be large for most feeding regimes, but the algae scrubbers likely are more efficient in space.

 

[75mixedreef]

They usually say 1 square inch per gallon of a double sided ATS. Double that to 2 square inches per gallon for a single sided. That isn't exact but it gives you a ball park. I think less than that is ok but more means no algae issues unless you overfeed.

 

[Slarti]

The scrubber gurus changed the sizing to base it on your feeding, this from the algae scrubber forum:

An example VERTICAL waterfall or VERTICAL upflow screen size is 3 X 4 inches = 12 square inches of screen (7.5 X 10 cm = 75 sq cm):

1 frozen cube per day (2-sided screen), or
1/2 frozen cube per day (1-sided screen), or
10 pinches of flake food per day (2-sided screen), or
5 pinches of flake food per day (1-sided screen), or
10 square inches (60 sq cm) of nori per day (2-sided screen), or
5 square inches (30 sq cm) of nori per day (1-sided screen), or
0.1 dry ounce (2.8 grams) of pellet food per day (2-sided screen), or
0.05 dry ounce (1.4 grams) of pellet food per day (1-sided screen)

 

[Newb55g]

Great info, thanks peeps!

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[Newb55g]

Crap...forgot...have another question...whats the consensus on a sump with a protien skimmer and algea scrubber only? So...3 sections...skimmer/ats/return? Or should the scrubber be with the skimmer to skim the flow off the scrubber? Advice?

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[2smokes]

When you use an algae scrubber its recomended not to use a skimer or if you use a skimer than also calculate how much food(proteins) the skimmer can take out of the water(up to 50 percent).If somme wants to use a skimmer and an algae scrubber then the algae scrubber can be much smaller than normally recomended).In the sump i would make a compartment to install somme filter socks to take out the detritus .

 

[75mixedreef]

When you use an algae scrubber its recomended not to use a skimer or if you use a skimer than also calculate how much food(proteins) the skimmer can take out of the water(up to 50 percent).If somme wants to use a skimmer and an algae scrubber then the algae scrubber can be much smaller than normally recomended).In the sump i would make a compartment to install somme filter socks to take out the detritus .

I'm going to say BS to not using them together. They do 2 different things and are very much so complimentary. The ATS is a consistent removal of no3 and po4 through a biological process. A skimmer removes proteins from the water that could decay into no3 and po4 through a mechanical process. The crap removed by the skimmer could be used as food by filter feeders and corals so there is a give and take on how much you want to remove, but it handles nutrient spikes very well and could prevent your tank from crashing. So using both is a way to keep your water clean, nutrients low, and reduce the risk of disaster.

 

[2smokes]

I'm going to say BS to not using them together. They do 2 different things and are very much so complimentary. The ATS is a consistent removal of no3 and po4 through a biological process. A skimmer removes proteins from the water that could decay into no3 and po4 through a mechanical process. The crap removed by the skimmer could be used as food by filter feeders and corals so there is a give and take on how much you want to remove, but it handles nutrient spikes very well and could prevent your tank from crashing. So using both is a way to keep your water clean, nutrients low, and reduce the risk of disaster.

Its not BS.The ATS profesionals reccomend it.A protein skimmer takes out proteins not NO2 and NO3.Proteins are just food that can become NO2 and NO3 but the skimer can not take out NO2 and NO3 on itself.For that you have to dose vodka or nopox or another carbon source to get bacterial blooms that will be taken out of the water by the skimmer.You can use both,ATS and protein skimmer, but then the ATS must be much smaller.If you have too powerfull algae scrubber for the ammount of nutrients ,then the algae wont grow well and will be less efficient.

 

[jason2459]

Who are these ATS professionals? Usually they have an interest to sell a bigger ATS. I do know one that is not motivated like that and if you have a skimmer already just keep it running.

A protein skimmer and ATS can most definitely work together and pull out totally different things.

 

[jason2459]

and I can see this thread spiraling out of control. This particular topic includes a lot of subjective (ie. opinionated) ideas. Like I believe the skimmer to help and not take away from an ATS and will help remove organics and the ATS can help remove inorganics.

There's so many ways to run a reef tank. Many people have posted stellar examples using so many different methods and there's many people failing trying to use the same exact methods.

For me I use a mixed approach and don't depend on any single thing to be the main "thing" to maintain my tank.

Carbon dosing with vinegar to reduce nitrates and maintain low phosphates and directly feed other organisms, besides just bacteria, in the tank.

Skimmer to help remove excess bacteria exporting what they've consumed and anything else that attaches to the bubbles. Plus helping to aerate the water and boost my pH.

Some kind of algae harvesting to work with the carbon dosing to help remove unwanted elements and nutrients. Currently running a Turbo ATS. Slight pH increase from it.

Reversed Under gravel filter to increase microfauna, pods, worms, sponges, etc plus it may help reduce nitrates.

~1% daily automatic water changes exporting whatever and importing stuff.

Then a periodic (1-2x per year) typhoon with a diatom filter.

 

[jason2459]

I am planning a sump system with a waterfall style algea scrubber and am confused on the exact size it should be (screen wise) advice anyone? 55 gal DT 36 gal sump.

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I just noticed this is posted in the Reef Chemistry forum. It's more related to the advanced topic or reef discussion sections.

I would post this question over in this thread.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1977420&page=365

Edit: from it from Floyd R Turbo

Big Basic Change #1 - Screen Size

Originally, the standard method used to calculate the screen size required was based on the size of the tank. Around September 2011, that method was revised to be based on feeding amount. This is a very important change, because not only does it mean an Algae Scrubber screen is more appropriately sized, it also means you will get better growth results. As it turns out, bigger is not necessarily better when it comes to your algae screen – the algae on a screen that is too large compared to the amount being fed will become nutrient deficient over time as the algae will want to grow across the entire screen. Concentrating this algae growth down to the appropriate size in accordance with the amount fed means you will typically get more green growth, and green hair algae is what filters the best (and smells the least, I might add).

The good news here is that this means that in most cases, you can get away with a significantly smaller screen, and guesstimating your bio-load specific to your system is completely unnecessary.

Once you figure out your available flow, then it's time to figure out your optimal screen dimensions.

There are 2 ways of looking at this: square inches based on length and width dimension, and square inches based on illuminated surface area. The latter is technically more accurate, but since most people light both sides, the former is usually referenced.

The new rule is based on cube-equivalent amount of food fed daily, regardless of how many gallons you have in the system. You need 12 square inches of screen illuminated on BOTH SIDES with a total of 12 watts of fluorescent light for 18 hours/day for each cube-equivalent fed into the system per day. That means 6 watts per side of real wattage, not equivalent wattage. LED wattage is addressed separately as it has a different set of rules.

The cube-equivalent is defined as any ONE of the following:

1 frozen cube
10 pinches of flake food
10 square inches (60 sq cm) of nori
0.1 dry ounce (2.8 grams) of pellet food
3.25 mL of liquid coral food

If you feed something else and are having a hard time determining the cube-equivalent, then take the daily amount of food, put it in a blender with some water and puree it well, then strain it using a coffee filter (or a rotifer sieve if you happen to have a spare one laying around) and pour the food into an empty Ocean Nutrition or other cube-type food tray, and you will have the cube-equivalent for that amount of food.

If you light the screen from only one side, double the dimensional measurement of the screen; light requirement is the same, it’s just all on one side.

For a non-vertical screen, double the dimensional measurement again. Any screen that is not 100% vertical is treated as a horizontal screen (even if it’s only slightly slanted). This is because of the channeling properties inherent to a slanted or horizontal screen; there is an immediate loss of efficiency when the screen is non-vertical.

So, just so we're 100% clear on this:

Vertical, lit from both sides: 12 square inches of screen material per cube of food per day, 12 watts of light split between each side.

Vertical, lit from only one side: 24 square inches of screen material per cube of food per day, 12 watts of light on one side.

Non-vertical: 48 square inches of screen material per cube of food per day. Lighting must increase by a factor of 1.5 (discussed in the lighting section). In this case, a MINIMUM of 18 watts of light is needed, preferably much, much more.

Screen Dimensions

So now that you know your actual flow rate AND the necessary size of your screen (dimensional area), now you are ready to figure out your dimensions.

You want the flow to be a minimum of 35 GPH per inch of screen width. You can get by with a lower flow rate, but your Algae Scrubber may not be strong enough depending on your bio-load. You can have higher flow also, which is generally not a problem as long as your screen is rough enough and you aren’t getting black slime algae (which is a sign of high nutrients, and needs more frequent cleaning until it lightens up). What you want to achieve is enough flow so that you have a full sheet of water across the screen off the bottom edge, like this:



Simply take your GPH (that you just measured) and divide by 35, and this will be your maximum screen width. Then, take that number and divide it into your total screen area to obtain the height dimension of the screen. The result is the total area of roughed-up screen that you want.

You want to add to the height dimension for the section of smooth screen that will be inserted into the slot pipe. You want to allow for the distance that the screen will be inserted into the slot pipe, plus at least 1/8" of smooth screen below the slot tube to help prevent algae growth into the slot. The total amount of smooth screen you need depends on how far you insert the screen into the slot pipe. A little extra smooth screen at the top never hurts, as it can be trimmed off later if you leave too much.

You may also want to leave smooth screen at the bottom as well. Most screens, in some form or another, will ‘dip’ into a pool of water at the bottom. This submerged area does not grow algae very well, so you can leave that smooth too.

The critical area, and the only area that contributes to scrubbing power, is the roughed-up and illuminated portion of the screen. Figure out your necessary screen dimensions, and then add the extra smooth sections to the height dimension.

If the only way you can mount your scrubber is to have it hanging in free air and high above your sump, you can leave a significant amount of smooth screen below the ‘effective’ area, or you can attach another screen to the bottom edge of the main screen. You may end up with some gooey growth on this screen though, so you should avoid it if possible (IMO).

 

[bertoni]

I agree that a protein skimmer will remove some nutrients from the water column, perhaps quite a bit, depending on lots of factors, including the animals in the tank and other filtration. I also agree that a skimmer will not remove mineralized nutrients, like nitrate. Personally, I would run a skimmer with the ATS. A skimmer can provide a lot of aeration, which can be very useful, especially in emergency situations, and can remove allelopathic compounds, organics that can tint the water, and help keep nutrients under control.

Running an ATS with a skimmer might allow you to reduce the size of the ATS a bit, although I don't think that running too large an scrubber is going to do any harm other than the cost of lighting it and the space it takes up. In my view, better safe than sorry. On the other hand, people run nice tanks without skimmers. Some carbon might help a lot with the water tinting, for example, although I have had less luck with overall water quality without a skimmer.

 

[Buzz1329]

and I can see this thread spiraling out of control. This particular topic includes a lot of subjective (ie. opinionated) ideas. Like I believe the skimmer to help and not take away from an ATS and will help remove organics and the ATS can help remove inorganics.

There's so many ways to run a reef tank. Many people have posted stellar examples using so many different methods and there's many people failing trying to use the same exact methods.

For me I use a mixed approach and don't depend on any single thing to be the main "thing" to maintain my tank.

Carbon dosing with vinegar to reduce nitrates and maintain low phosphates and directly feed other organisms, besides just bacteria, in the tank.

Skimmer to help remove excess bacteria exporting what they've consumed and anything else that attaches to the bubbles. Plus helping to aerate the water and boost my pH.

Some kind of algae harvesting to work with the carbon dosing to help remove unwanted elements and nutrients. Currently running a Turbo ATS. Slight pH increase from it.

Reversed Under gravel filter to increase microfauna, pods, worms, sponges, etc plus it may help reduce nitrates.

~1% daily automatic water changes exporting whatever and importing stuff.

Then a periodic (1-2x per year) typhoon with a diatom filter.

Yep. Mixed approach works for me too.

Combo of different nutrient control methods helps eliminate the widest spectrum of nasties. And combo of nasty control methods provides back up --if one part of system fails, the other components will prevent disaster.

On my 180, I run:

SRO300 INT skimmer, which is the most efficient skimmer I have ever run;

Turbo ATS designed to process 3 cubes of food daily;

Reactor containing 3/4 cups of GFO and GAC changed and sponges cleaned weekly; and

"Hail Mary" 40 watt UV on return line. (I consider UV a long shot at effectively controlling nuisance algae, but figured it could not hurt.)

I also:

dose 40 ml daily of vinegar;

do 10% weekly water change with IO/0 TDS RO/DI water.

In addition I removed substrate from front of tank, which was ground zero for cyano outbreaks.

Using these methods/components resulted in my eliminating (since 7/16 ) LONG TERM outbreak of brown hair algae and cyano. Please excuse me while I knock on wood.

Mike