Alkaline Buffers Up or Down?

[narwal]

I'm looking at the various products for buffering alkalinity (ph) and getting confused. Some say they will RAISE the ph to 8.3 and not go any higher. But they don't say anything about lowering the ph. Mine is at 8.6 - so would this product lower it too? Then I saw another product called an alkalinity buffer and it says it will lower the ph.

These two producst are from Seachem:
Acid Buffer™ is a non-phosphate buffer to lower pH and buffer. It is designed for the planted aquarium or for very hard water where phosphate buffers may pose an algae or cloudiness problem. Acid Buffer™ lowers pH and buffers between 5.0 and 8.0. Acid Buffer™ lowers pH and converts carbonate alkalinity (KH) into available CO2. It may also be used to safely lower pH in marine water.

..and here is another:

Reef buffer is intended primarily for use in a reef system where the maintenance of a ph of 8.3 is often difficult. When used as directed reef buffer will raise the ph of your reef system to 8.3 without fear of accidentally overshooting the ph to a dangerous level. Reef buffer will also raise carbonate alkalinity. Reef buffer is a blended product and is not just sodium carbonate. Reef builder should be used to raise alkalinity when ph is not a problem. Use seachem's multitest: marine ph & alkalinity to check ph and total alkalinity.

So which one to use??

Thanks

 

[HighlandReefer]

The pH buffers are usually sodium carbonate (soda ash) or a mixture of sodium carbonate and sodium bicarbonate (baking soda). Some will have borates in them. All these pH buffers will increase your alkalintiy and should be used to maintain alkalinity. Baking soda will not have much effect on pH whereas soda ash will increase your pH. As long as your not having problems with pH being low, then use baking soda.

If you are using a test kit to measure your pH with, they can be off significantly. If you are using a pH meter, make sure it is properly calibrated within the last month. If your pH was lower and is now elevated from using buffers, I would stop using these buffers and use baking soda to maintain your pH and the pH should return to normal.

What is your current alkalinity?

 

[narwal]

Levels

Levels

Sorry. I posted another thread about ph but should have included the information here as well. My ph has risen to 8.6. My DKH is within range at 8.0.
Calcium is 500. All other parameters within acceptable limits.

Thanks

 

[HighlandReefer]

Your pH level is just above the recommended high of 8.5. I would try increasing flow at your water surface area to drive in more CO2 from your room air and see if that doesn't reduce your pH. I would not use the high pH buffers if you pH stays high. I would use baking soda to maintain your alk.

This is provding you have an acurate (calibrated) pH meter you are using & not a test kit for pH.

 

[narwal]

Co2

Co2

Your pH level is just above the recommended high of 8.5. I would try increasing flow at your water surface area to drive in more CO2 from your room air and see if that doesn't reduce your pH. I would not use the high pH buffers if you pH stays high. I would use baking soda to maintain your alk.

This is provding you have an acurate (calibrated) pH meter you are using & not a test kit for pH.

Thanks. I'm already running 2 fans over the water surface when the MH lights are on to dissipate heat and move more air.

 

[bertoni]

What's being dosed into the system?

I'd get a second opinion on the pH measurement.

 

[narwal]

???

???

What's being dosed into the system?

I'd get a second opinion on the pH measurement.

Why? I've already tested with 2 kits from 2 different manufacturers. If these kits are so inaccurate it seems that there's hardly any point in testing unless you do 2 or 3 tests for each parameter.

It would be great if someone did a review of some of these kits for accuracy of results and consistency. I'm much rather use a kit which was always 5-10% off instead of one which was sometimes right on and sometimes way off.

 

[RBU1]

What are you dosing to get your PH that high? I drip kalk and mine never goes above 8.4

 

[sedor]

I'm guessing whatever your testing your ph with is off by a smidge. I think its a slippery slope using all sorts of buffers to try and reach a specific number. Unless your noticing any problems relating to ph in your tank, or its jumping unusually high, I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[HighlandReefer]

There are two parameters where I feel from past experience that hobbyists should invest extra money.

1) Buy a refractometer for salinity measurements. Hydrometers are notoriously off. One can calibrate a hydrometer using a properly calibrated refractometer.

2) Buy a dual calibrating pH meter and learn how to properly calibrate it. Test kits have proved over and over again to be off enough to cause problems for hobbyists.

Seldom do hobbyists have a pH above 8.4 unless they are adding alk buffers or lime water (or something similar). Other possible exceptions may include living in a very old house which has many air leaks into it or if a hobbyist has added seagrasses to their tank.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Why? I've already tested with 2 kits from 2 different manufacturers. If these kits are so inaccurate it seems that there's hardly any point in testing unless you do 2 or 3 tests for each parameter.

Why, you ask? Here's why

We have answered literally, and I do mean literally, THOUSANDS of questions about pH. 99.9% of pH readings above pH 8.5 (when you are not using limewater) end up being measurement error. In fact, I'm not sure if any have ever been accurate.

So that is why Jonahtan asked, and IMO, you should NOT do anything about it (except perhaps more aeration which can never hurt). If the alkalinity is normal to low, the pH is not really that high, and you are more likely to do harm than good by trying to lower it.

Yes, pH test kits are often inaccurate. I do not recommend them.

This has more, including how to lower pH if it is actually high:

High pH: Causes and Cures
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-03/rhf/index.htm

 

[narwal]

No Dose

No Dose

What are you dosing to get your PH that high? I drip kalk and mine never goes above 8.4

I only supplement with iron and multi formula Reef Plus. Calcium when needed, but mine remains amazingly stable at around 500ppm. Strontium, magnesium, etc. No Kalkwasser or stuff like that. System is about 290 gallons with fuge, sump and skimmer. I have bags of carbon in sump and fuge. That's it.

 

[narwal]

No Snoot!

No Snoot!

Why? I've already tested with 2 kits from 2 different manufacturers. If these kits are so inaccurate it seems that there's hardly any point in testing unless you do 2 or 3 tests for each parameter.

Why, you ask? Here's why

We have answered literally, and I do mean literally, THOUSANDS of questions about pH. 99.9% of pH readings above pH 8.5 (when you are not using limewater) end up being measurement error. In fact, I'm not sure if any have ever been accurate.

So that is why Jonahtan asked, and IMO, you should NOT do anything about it (except perhaps more aeration which can never hurt). If the alkalinity is normal to low, the pH is not really that high, and you are more likely to do harm than good by trying to lower it.

Yes, pH test kits are often inaccurate. I do not recommend them.

This has more, including how to lower pH if it is actually high:

High pH: Causes and Cures
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-03/rhf/index.htm

If I sounded peeved it was only because I was starting to realize that all this consternation was caused by crappy testing. Although 8.6 is about .3 higher than I have tested before, like you said, who knows what the true value was when it read 8.3?
The tank is quite healthy, fishies and corals all thriving, and I just found some baby Sally Lightfoot crabs. My shrimp molt and grow like crazy.

I would be VERY HAPPY to do nothing as you suggest. I'm very big on not using more powders and potions than absolutely necessary. All my filtration is "natural" - refugiuim, skimmer, carbon.

Question: Are test for all the other parameters just as inaccurate, or is it just ph testing that is so bad? I suppose the thing we can most accurately measure is salinity, with a properly calibrated refractometer. What bout nitrite, nitrates, ammonia, etc. Can we be more confident with these tests?

Thanks

 

[HighlandReefer]

Have you ever tried to build something with a kids toy set of hammers, saws...etc? This is similar to what we are trying to do when using hobby grade test kits. Scientists fight all the time about the accuracy of very expensive test equipment. :lol:

 

[HighlandReefer]

The fun part starts when you watch the kids who are using these toy carpentry sets fight over which set is better. :lol:

 

[narwal]

Testing (1-2-3)

Testing (1-2-3)

Have you ever tried to build something with a kids toy set of hammers, saws...etc? This is similar to what we are trying to do when using hobby grade test kits. Scientists fight all the time about the accuracy of very expensive test equipment. :lol:

It all depends on the intended purpose. If a scientist requires accuracy to an extremely high degree then obviously it will cost more with the reward being accuracy and confidence.

For the purposes of an aquarium we shouldn't have to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on test equipment. STILL - if a $20 test kit for ph is inaccurate and inconsistent then it isn't worth a dime.

I'd be willing to spend $250 for a test kit that is accurate and consistent and reliable. That would be a better deal than spending $49.95 for one that is useless.

 

[HighlandReefer]

Don't take me wrong, I have built some very useful things, which my parents kept for many years using a kids carpentry set. You just have to know how to get the most out of them. It takes some experience.

For example, my buddy and I shared the tools provided in our kits. We found his saw worked better and my screw drivers worked better.

 

[HighlandReefer]

The same applies to the different assortment of test kits out there. Some work better than others. Test kits do have a life expectancy which can be hard to determine. There do seem to be bad batches of test kits out there occasionally. Having back-up kits to use if you find there is a large discrepancy is helpful. IMHO, you do not need to spend a tremendous amount of money to get results that will work for reef aquarium.

 

[HighlandReefer]

I remember when we got to use my Dad's good quality hand saw, which made cutting much easier than the toy saws. Sure it was not a power saw but it worked much better. The same applies to purchasing an $80-90 pH meter for testing pH levels in a reef tank vs pH test kits.

Of course my dream is to have a full blown cabinetry making work shop at the cost of hundreds of thousands of dollars. A full blown test lab wouldn't be bad either. :lol:

 

[narwal]

Norm

Norm

I remember when we got to use my Dad's good quality hand saw, which made cutting much easier than the toy saws. Sure it was not a power saw but it worked much better. The same applies to purchasing an $80-90 pH meter for testing pH levels in a reef tank vs pH test kits.

Of course my dream is to have a full blown cabinetry making work shop at the cost of hundreds of thousands of dollars. A full blown test lab wouldn't be bad either. :lol:

Yeah, like watching Norm Abram's New Yankee Workshop. He shows you how to make all kinds of beautiful stuff - but this bastard has a $100,000 workshop and every imaginable tool and jig. Huge planers and jointers and a thousand clamps. Just like the average Joe hobbyist-right?