alkalinity TOO high, calc at 430ppm, OUCH, what can i do?

[wolfdogg]

my dkh is assumed to be near 19dkh after using salifert test kit, it took a complete 1ml, then another .2 ml on the 2nd run.

i have been overdosing with arm and hammer baking soda (sodium bicarbonate).

what cost effective(free) method can i use to bring it down? how about lemon or lime juice a few cc's daily? that would probably be a huge algae grower i imagine, but its an acid. I really dont want to use this, i just thought of it, since i use it to kill aptasia with a syringe "good idea for those of you who have an aptasia problem, it works flawlessly)

I dont want to really do another water change, since last night i just did a slow siphon flow of 4 to 4.5 fresh gallons last night, and YES< i added just over ateast a teaspoon prob, using the palm of the hand method, last night into mix after reading today that a teaspoon is appropriate for 10 gallons, not 5gals. I tested today for the first time in a while, after my snails (atreas only) are CONSISTANTLY falling off the glass. the ceriths are fine. The astreas are also getting kind of puffy and old looking, raggedy on their tissue, and slightly inflammed looking if not old. the snails are near a year old, and about the size of a nickel around. These astreas have been my indicator and the reason i suspected i had a problem, on top of having the coralline declining and not any new growing.

I have not seen this before. over the last week, since my last water change about 2 weeks ago actually(which was LONG OVERDUE at that point(prob 2 months from last change) i dosed too much sodium bicarb, and thats when it started i believe(noticing snails flying off glass as each morning they were upside down on sand). But, i suspected my nitrates to be high then, so i thought that was the reason. But after that water change, and after last nights change i tested my alk and found it to be skyrocketed to my dismay, i assumed it had all been used up, but apparently quite the opposite.
i think my nitrates must be near 5ppm or less by now after last nights change, and could have been 10ppm or over during the last change. i dont use nitrate testers as long as the cyano doesnt appear and i dont see ANY GHA. i had a bit of maroon cakey cyano bacteria growing on top of one old algae plant, a plant that has not grown in months, so that was my sign of a pending water change a few weeks ago, and i also see some GHS on one rock, very sparse growth, and wondering why the snails arent taking care of it. I have about 15 healthy astreas i think, and about 5 healthy ceriths. I think the water got so bad at that time that its the reason i lost my only peppermint "aptasia muncher" shrimp, and the reason i had a slow decline in hermie's. i think i only have about 4 hermies left, and the 20 of them lived for about 9 months with no problems until i ran out of salt and money for h2o changes. So, with teh shrimp, about 16 hermies, and a few astreas missing, i guess i got a hit of nitrates. With teh water changes ive been OD'ing teh tank on ALK. The calcium is at a good 430ppm and havent dosed any of that since i ran out(turbo calc) several months ago.

theres little life in teh tank, only one naturally occurring encrusting monopora or somethign of the sort, and quite a few sponges, quite a few naturally ocurring brittles(about 15-20) and about 30 asturina stars, all of which spawned in my tank. Also, i have 1 false percula, 1 flamefish goby, 1 yellow and pink damsel(forgot name) and 1 neon goby(or could it be a wrasse but think its a neon), only 4 fish, the only 4 fish i bought, 3 of which are about a year old(not the damsel).

Do falling snails indicate high alkilinity? hehe, i think so!

water params today
temp - 77 F.
nitrate?? salifert is bad
Calcium - 430ppm
Alk - prob 6.98meQ or 19dKH
ph - atleast 8.2 maybe 8.3
salinity 1.024

temperature swings regularly between 76 and 80 for last couple weeks, and previous to that was swinging from 76 to 87 for the August heat spell, OUCH!! my place is getting too hot, and have no chiller, i use the air conditioner just to keep the tank cool, and a seperate fan.

those are all i can think of as to why my snails are looking like they are about to keep over, although i havent found a single dead hermit crab or snail yet since i started teh tank about a year or more ago. i also have not had a fish die on me, the only thing i lost so far is 2 peppermints and one cleaner shrimp that i can tell, except for the missing crabs and snails.

 

[bertoni]

The animals might be having problems with the alkalinity, although that's not necessarily true. Water changes are the only safe way to reduce alkalinity, in my option. Dosing a mineral acid, like muriatic acid, will do the job, too, but overdosing can be bad, and muriatic acid requires careful handling.

 

[wolfdogg]

i dont have any of that either, but would be up for trying something like 0.25cc 4 times per day(almost wondering if thats too strong for a 29gal),

is that swimming pool acid? thats not vinegar is it? i was always able to recall what type of acid that vinegar is, but now it escapes me.

ahh acetic acid is vinegar isnt it?

 

[bertoni]

Vinegar contains acetic acid, which is an organic acid. It will drop alkalinity only until bacteria consume the organic portion of the compound.

I don't know how much muriatic acid it'd take. I'm not sure what acid is used in swimming pools.

 

[wolfdogg]

how about sulfuric acid, isnt that a mineral acid? i know where to get some of that, car battery, hehe.
im guessing theres no organics in that, but sulfur byproducts in a fish tank, doesnt sound healthy does it.

 

[bertoni]

Sulfuric acid would be okay, if sufficiently pure. Personally, I wouldn't try it, though.

 

[wolfdogg]

i dont blame you for not wanting to try it.
i may, but it would be a BRAVE act, and for science since no one has tried it.
I will have to think carfully on this, but in minute dosages i cant see it hurting anything.

i have done some brave things before that ended successfully like let the GHA overgrow completey until it was about 4 or 5 inches long, covering the entire tank which caused a worm explosion and other bacteria that wiped it out in weeks strenghtening the tanks ability to fight it off for good. that was another brave moment.

 

[bertoni]

There are commercial sulfuric acid products for this purpose, if you want to try one. I think pH Down is sulfuric acid.

 

[wolfdogg]

i heard of an acid buffer that i found today, im sure i could get that at my LFS, i just wanted to find a free method due to my latest shrinking budget so it would have to be from a lead acid cell if i tried sulfuric acid.

do you think the dissolved lead is traced in this solution? meaning detectable? or does it gas out? if its detectable im guessing the dosage even tough small, is still dangerous and absurd to use because of the lead content, which may render this source impossible for reefing uses.


i could place some top off water in a glass, swirl it up, add 1 drop of H2SO4, and pour it slowly, half at a time, as top off water, into the power head intake tank portion of the Aqua Pod, ooh thats brave. hehe. i can see myself trying that. ill watch my nice looking and only sps and see how he/she feels about that. Ill keep an eye on the mushrooms too, If i decide that is to do this that is. ill surely let you know if i do and report it. Im sure at that dosage little will happen, and once a day with the top off water may help bring the alk down to safe ranges quite a bit faster than a tank with a small animal load, without giving an unnecessary water change. salt just gets expensive, and is already a fixed cost.

This brings me to a problem possibly. Even 1 mEQ(or was it 1DKH which would be even worse for this method since there more than 2 dKH/mEQ) a week is too fast of a change, i hear, but thats if its already in safe ranges i assume. But what about if its already unsafely TOO high assuming 19-20dKH is getting unsafe for snails and other sensitive creatures, then i gather it wouldn't be too unsafe to jam it down a point or two in less than a week.

 

[bertoni]

I wouldn't use anything from a car battery, personally. I don't know what kind of contaminants might be present.

 

[wolfdogg]

im just particularlly concerned with lead, i wonder if anyone knows the process. since lead isnt in the compound of sulfuric acid, i think, and just think, that it gasses out. im not worried about anything else, because its totally pure acid if the battery is new, the biggest worry is using the stuff in the first place.

 

[MCsaxmaster]

I'd be really, really concerned about using mineral acids without knowing very well what the purity and concentration are like. Even so, this will reduce the pH quite a bit for awhile after addition.

I'd recommend a water change as a much safer method to reduce alkalinity.

cj

 

[acrylic_300]

i have done some brave things before that ended successfully like let the GHA overgrow completey until it was about 4 or 5 inches long, covering the entire tank which caused a worm explosion and other bacteria that wiped it out in weeks strenghtening the tanks ability to fight it off for good.

Don't forget the old saying about nothing good happens fast.

I would do water changes until it gets down to about 14 DKH then add the balanced amount of Calcuim 450 or so. Then let it drop on its own from there.

If there was some way to lower the Alk in your replacement water? That would help get it down faster.

 

[wolfdogg]

ill take experiences advice, thanks guys. i pondered for a moment actually doing this, after the discussion, and i couldnt do that to my tank, hehe(the acid method). ill save it for another day in some FOWLR tank, hehe.

i guess water changes it is, and now the brilliant idea, ill save the water, for adding it back later, LIGHTBULB!

 

[wolfdogg]

meanwhile, i have 5 upside down snails, after not touching them since yesterday, and all the coralline and pearlescent stuff is missing off of them(all astreas), and i do have a 60 gal next door, i think i may do some water shifting, the alk in that tank is 3.89 mEQ

i was thinking, the ones that look so clean and brighter thast are mising the coralline, pearelescent, and are whiter than the rest, are the ones that have been spending most of their time on their backs, getting NO light, over the last 2 weeks, because a few others, that dont have this problem still have the white pearlcolor, and are alot darker like my rocks, you know, that blue-grey color where good coralline growth is absent from not paying attention to the alkalinity.

 

[MCsaxmaster]

Using acid is fine, I think, if you understand the chemistry invovled very well and you are confident of the quality/concentration of your acid (HCl preferred). This is not something I'd recommend to a non-chemist, given the potential for disaster.

Doing a water change is a good route I think

cj

p.s. In the lab, given precision instruments and precisely known acid concentrations, I can easily measure alkalinity to within +/- 0.002 meq/l and can prepare batches of sea water to within +/- 0.005 meq/l. This is possible, but it takes good equipment and nice, standardized acid.

 

[wolfdogg]

possibly i have a nitrate problem, i got teh water out in a bucket and noticed it wasnt too clear, then i got 5 gallons out of the 60 gallon which was just tested at "5" on the nitrates, according to the owner, whatever 5 is, i guess 5ppm, the LFS didnt tell him, but just wrote in teh values that i sent with him. So, i compared my 5 gals to his 5 gals and noticed my looked more orange/yellow, where his looked more green/yellow but couldnt rule out any one being uglier than teh other, all i could tell you is niether of them was clear. So, possibly my nitrates were up to 10ppm, giving the snails complications.

this message is for those in the future to know that still, the community is unsure that high alkalinity is hard on indicator species such as snails and shrimp, there has been no definitive proof of that so far. I thought i had something here, but now im not sure its not the combination of both, or simply just nitrates, since my salifert test kit is out of date, and DOEST show any pink at all for any water from what i can tell.

Is there anyone who has had high alk, hurting snails or other inverts, simply by high alk, with nitrates tested at good levels?

i did a 10 gallon change from water from the 60 gal into this ailing 29gal, then i set up a skimmer in a seperate 5 gallon bucket, and realized i shouldnt have done that 2nd 5 gallon change yet cause now i needed to mix up some fresh saltwater to fill the now empty 5 gallon bucket so i could run a siphon thru it to skim the 29gal, now running as 33.5 gal with the skimming bucket. all the while, the encrusting coral still looks happy, and a couple hours after the change all the mushrooms are out again, well 1 looks a bit hard hit and was an incredible shrinking mushroom yesterday, and not fanned open today, just half way open. signs of neglect, ugh.

i found my first dead snail carcass in the tank since i have been running this system. this is teh only dead snail i have seen in this tank at all.
i just did a quick count, and geese, i have atleast 13 live astreas at a glance, one of which is protruding a bit more than shoudl be, so is being hit hard. these snails are over a year old now, so apparently i have only lost a couple over teh last year, if that. i also saw my reg legged hermie looking good, so that makes atleast more than 5 hermies out of teh original 20, i think some are hiding in the back.

 

[bertoni]

There are many reasons the snails might be dying. Pinning down the exact cause is very difficult to impossible. I doubt that nitrate is the issue, from personal experience and what data there is.

 

[cayars]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10884747#post10884747 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bertoni
There are commercial sulfuric acid products for this purpose, if you want to try one. I think pH Down is sulfuric acid.

This is your safest bet and you should be able to pick it up at most LFS. It's sulfuric acid.

When dosing this be very careful not to overshoot your alkalinity AND ph. Monitor the pH during any acid additions.

Try diluting the acid in water, pour an ounce of the acid into a container and gently add a quart or so of RO/DI water to the acid.

The safe bet would be to dose an ounce or two of this solution (diluted) into a high flow area and wait an hour. Test your pH, Alk & Calcium. Note what changes. Try and keep the daily pH drop to within 0.2 and just take it slow. Personally, since it's already high to begin with I'd only try and lower the Alk by 2 dKH a day at the most. Going more then this is going to shock your corals again.

Carlo

 

[MCsaxmaster]

If trying acid additions keep in mind that after the addition you'll have a depressed pH (HCO3- and CO3-- are converted over to CO2) that won't rise until the CO2 has been consumed/lost.

cj