All Equal In the End

[cleverbs]

This might be the only post I ever START lol But I have a lot of people talk to me about this. Especially over the last hour.

Essentially everything costs the same in this industry, all of it. Doesn't matter whether you buy a full blown calcium reactor or dose your aquarium. Use halides or LEDs. Buy Ecotech pumps or Korallias. Jebaos or Ecotech returns. It's just a matter of what people want to fork over up front. Let me explain a bit further.

People would rather buy halides then LEDs because the cost is $200 less. Thing is over the course of 2 years someone is going to also pay for $200 in bulbs for halides. If someone wants to avoid the cost of a $500 calcium reactor package, take what you spend on additives and put the same amount in an account for a year - it'll usually equal that reactor. Buying a DC Jebao return pump (lol), might go through 2 or 3 of them before the warranty even gets near ending on an Ecotech. Same thing with Korallias.

Anytime someone saves money in the beginning, it's going to cost them the same amount of money over the course of 1-2 years to have just started with the better option in my experience. Even things like AP700s vs w360s - if you're a fragger it'll likely give twice the return on frag production. I talk about Kessils a lot because I really just don't care for any other light. Used to be a straight 400 watt DE HQI guy who fragged more corals than anyone on this planet. Took Kessil to to make me unleash my grip on halides.

Point is consider going with the better option and not the cheapest. Essentially it all ends up costing the same in the end and usually you'll get more use out of the higher quality stuff. In the fashion industry people pay for names. In the reef industry you pay for reliability and user friendliness.

While I will agree that many times when we buy cheap we end up having to replace. I 1000% disagree with your logic about lighting. People who buy Metal halides or T5ho fixtures like myself dont do it because its "Cheaper" we all know we are spending $100's each year on bulbs its in no way cheaper. We buy metal halide or t5hos because its tride and true and works. LED's in the past year have been getting there but they still do not stand up in an sps tank like a halide or t5ho fixture does. IMO and i say IMO LED's do not belong over SPS tanks.

A better comparison would be buying the cheap ebay led over the ecotech radion.

 

[Wazzel]

Often when you cheap out you cost yourself more with having to replace down the line. The most expensive gear is usually not necessary and you are just over spending for the name. Not unique to this hobby.

As far as the LED issue, it needs to just go away. LEDs work well and every bit as good as the other light choices for any coral. All my pieces were grown from frags under nothing but LED for the last 2.5 years. My tank is about 80% SPS.

 

[boxfishpooalot]

Two things which your talking about here. Effciecy and quality.

I dont use technology anymore i hate it. The more parts to break, the more likely my tank will fail.

No gfo, i use an algae turf scrubber. Zero po4 zero no3.

I will not be using lights anymore, soon to switch to a sun pipe or solatube to use the sun.

I dont use ro/di anymore soon, ill be using distilled water from the sun in the summer and winter i will collect snow freshly fallen with 0tds, that i filter through carbon and sediment filters.

In the end my tank will use only a gyre to move water, and a heater if my house doestnt keep it stable.

 

[ca1ore]

Well, of course things don't all end up costing the same literally, but I take the point that many folks evaluate cost differences based only on initial acquisition costs and not on 'lifetime' cost. Trying to evaluate net cost differences between LED and MH. as example, is elusive at best. About all one can say is that LEDs are more efficient at turning input energy into light output. Simply putting one's hand under the light quickly confirms this. But, for folks that live in a cooler climate, that heat can mean you don't run your purpose heaters as often.

 

[ca1ore]

As far as the LED issue, it needs to just go away. LEDs work well and every bit as good as the other light choices for any coral. All my pieces were grown from frags under nothing but LED for the last 2.5 years. My tank is about 80% SPS.

Couldn't agree more! I've been keeping and growing SPS under LED only for a couple of years now. Why some folks are not successful I cannot say, though I would suspect either 'user error' or complex interactions.

 

[AboutAcans]

While I will agree that many times when we buy cheap we end up having to replace. I 1000% disagree with your logic about lighting. People who buy Metal halides or T5ho fixtures like myself dont do it because its "Cheaper" we all know we are spending $100's each year on bulbs its in no way cheaper. We buy metal halide or t5hos because its tride and true and works. LED's in the past year have been getting there but they still do not stand up in an sps tank like a halide or t5ho fixture does. IMO and i say IMO LED's do not belong over SPS tanks.

A better comparison would be buying the cheap ebay led over the ecotech radion.

A t5ho bulb for an SPS tank. I all but disregarded this post right there. And I'm saying the LEDs are cost more because the overall cost of maintenance is less in the long run.

 

[AboutAcans]

<a href="http://s1144.photobucket.com/user/heathlindner25/media/20161002_190356.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o493/heathlindner25/20161002_190356.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 20161002_190356.jpg"/></a>
This is a glass box with circulation and a hob skimmer. ....should I tear it down?
Doesn't have a sump or fancy equipment.

I wouldn't say tear it down. I would say part it out and give the livestock to more responsible reef keepers though. This to me is no different then painting a rusted out Taurus. If you continue running this rank in the same manner there is no chance it's still still flourishing in 5 years. A lot has changed over the last decade where more people are straying from basic physics and biology to create a work of art where it should be common knowledge it has no chance at long term survival

I'm off this post. Too much trolling is trying to start confrontations over me simply saying spend the money up front for quality products that will last. Just more sarcastic comments, and I've yet to read a valid point. . :wave:

 

[biecacka]

Well for me, in my tank I woukd need a minimum of 4 radions of not 6. Instead I use a single halide and 2 strip led bars. I used leds before and my spread is equivalent. So 4000$ is about 40 years worth of radiums....
However, I don't totally disagree with parts of your statement. In the sense that buying cheap CAN result in purchasing items multiple time . But not a certainty on that either.

Corey

 

[jacksonpt]

This might be the only post I ever START lol But I have a lot of people talk to me about this. Especially over the last hour.

Essentially everything costs the same in this industry, all of it. Doesn't matter whether you buy a full blown calcium reactor or dose your aquarium. Use halides or LEDs. Buy Ecotech pumps or Korallias. Jebaos or Ecotech returns. It's just a matter of what people want to fork over up front. Let me explain a bit further.

People would rather buy halides then LEDs because the cost is $200 less. Thing is over the course of 2 years someone is going to also pay for $200 in bulbs for halides. If someone wants to avoid the cost of a $500 calcium reactor package, take what you spend on additives and put the same amount in an account for a year - it'll usually equal that reactor. Buying a DC Jebao return pump (lol), might go through 2 or 3 of them before the warranty even gets near ending on an Ecotech. Same thing with Korallias.

Anytime someone saves money in the beginning, it's going to cost them the same amount of money over the course of 1-2 years to have just started with the better option in my experience. Even things like AP700s vs w360s - if you're a fragger it'll likely give twice the return on frag production. I talk about Kessils a lot because I really just don't care for any other light. Used to be a straight 400 watt DE HQI guy who fragged more corals than anyone on this planet. Took Kessil to to make me unleash my grip on halides.

Point is consider going with the better option and not the cheapest. Essentially it all ends up costing the same in the end and usually you'll get more use out of the higher quality stuff. In the fashion industry people pay for names. In the reef industry you pay for reliability and user friendliness.

I basically agree with this in the context of cutting corners will generally cost you in the long run... but that's very different than getting into the hobby with, uh, more simplistic goals/plans, then sticking to them.

The costs associated with a 40 breeder softie tank are going to be very different than those of a 180g sps tank. Apples and oranges to some extent, but context does matter.

Did I start with basic powerheads, then eventually ugprade to vortechs? Yep.
Did I start with basic T5s and am now looking into kessils? Yep.
Did I...
Did I...
Did I...

Yep, I did.

But most of those changes/upgrades were as I grew with the hobby... as I wanted to do more and keep more and expect more from my tank. Had I stuck with the basics, I wouldn't have needed some of the higher end stuff. And I think that's probably true of most hobbies. I'm a big cyclist... my first bike was, like, $100. Now my tires cost more than that... but it's because of how I've grown and progressed in the sport. The riding and racing I do now is very different than the riding I did 20 or 30 years ago.

 

[heathlindner25]

Well , let's see what you got going on hot shot? Let's see a picture so I can tell you your tank will crash it within 5 years, that tanks over 5 years old and extremely stable, and you're funny.:spin3:

 

[cleverbs]

A t5ho bulb for an SPS tank. I all but disregarded this post right there. And I'm saying the LEDs are cost more because the overall cost of maintenance is less in the long run.

Have you seen SPS tanks under ATI fixutes? If not I would suggest you go take a look and see how amazing they are without the heat of MH

 

[heathlindner25]

I also learned a long time ago to steer clear of any reefer that says they're way is the only way to do something.

 

[jmike0311]

Just throwing this out there...
While I agree that one should not cut corners when it comes to quality, as it USUALLY means frequent replacement, I think we can all agree that there are many ways to be successful in this hobby. There are multiple lighting types that have been proven to work for all types of corals and LED's are definitely earning their place on that list. T-5 and MH combos are probably among the most tried and true and T-5's alone have also had demonstrated and reproducible success. At this point it boils down to personal preference. With other equipment we are all familiar with the tried and true brands of, say skimmers or pumps. We might save some money up front going with a cheapie but will LIKELY have to replace it in short order. On occasion said cheapie might last a decade or more. Equipment does not need to be nor should it be a status symbol. Rather it should simply be a means to keep your tank and its inhabitants healthy and happy. Just my thoughts

 

[heathlindner25]

27 years of reefing and no pictures? .....interesting

 

[heathlindner25]

Seems to me you think you need expensive equipment to grow coral? You don't, need a blue thimb and the ability to keep water stable.

 

[rtparty]

:facepalm:


Don't feed the trolls...

 

[JZinCO]

This to me is no different then painting a rusted out Taurus.

I think you missed the point. If you want to use the analogy, you can own a taurus, a mustang, or a porsche. The taurus will go, but it won't win on the track and wasn't designed to that. A mustang and a porsche can duke it out on the track, but that better driver will win.
The thing is, some of us want to drive on the street, some want to push it a bit on the highway, and some want to drive on the track.

In my case, driving a porsche vs mustang won't yield a better track time because I ain't got nascar drivin skills. So why fork over my money for the best?

To take it further, if we f-up, it's our reckless driving and not the car's fault, and heathlindner25 seems to be damned good driving skills.

Keep up the need for speed my friend, but remember we ain't all in the same race.

 

[Potatohead]

This guy has to be trolling. 27 years of experience (and not afraid to let anyone know!) but then completely discounting T5's as lights capable of growing SPS. Right.

 

[pisanoal]

:spin2:

I wouldn't say tear it down. I would say part it out and give the livestock to more responsible reef keepers though. This to me is no different then painting a rusted out Taurus. If you continue running this rank in the same manner there is no chance it's still still flourishing in 5 years. A lot has changed over the last decade where more people are straying from basic physics and biology to create a work of art where it should be common knowledge it has no chance at long term survival

I'm off this post. Too much trolling is trying to start confrontations over me simply saying spend the money up front for quality products that will last. Just more sarcastic comments, and I've yet to read a valid point. . :wave:

This guy has to be trolling. 27 years of experience (and not afraid to let anyone know!) but then completely discounting T5's as lights capable of growing SPS. Right.

Actually, he isn't the troll. Its all of us :spin2: And also no one else is entitled to an opinion, no one else has had a valid point, including people that agreed with him. This thread is laughable at best.

 

[pisanoal]

<a href="http://s1144.photobucket.com/user/heathlindner25/media/20161002_190356.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o493/heathlindner25/20161002_190356.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 20161002_190356.jpg"/></a>
This is a glass box with circulation and a hob skimmer. ....should I tear it down?
Doesn't have a sump or fancy equipment.

Where are you hiding your expensive skimmer? Mp40s? High Tech lighting? ...controller? I know you didn't make that nice of a tank without all that stuff. It isn't possible.