alright who is the man?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14673376#post14673376 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DMBillies
That "fungus" you have is very weird. First thing, fungi tend to thrive in low pH environments, so raising your pH can't hurt there.

I'm also curious, since I do believe your tank is very low nutrient especially if you're using GFO and were dosing carbon, whether you've got any coralline growth? Coralline is a calcifying algae so just like your corals it will not be able to lay down the calcium carbonate needed to grow when the water is too acidic and just like any plant needs certain nutrients to thrive. My guess is, the fungus, which can grow well in a low pH environment is helping to use up what little nutrients are available in the tank. Also of interest is the fact that fungi actually emit C02 as they "feed" instead of fixing it like algae. I'm not sure the extent to which this could realistically be influencing your pH, but it can't possibly be helping matters.

Your clean-up crew doesn't touch the fungus?

Since you've established that it probably isn't algae (and it certainly doesn't look like one to me), again I'd start by raising your pH. Then coralline and other film algaes will have a better chance of competing against the fungus (or whatever it is). If your corals are pale, you might also reduce your striving for a really low nutrient tank. After all, corals and most of the animals in your tank need a certain amount of food to thrive, you're just trying to remove the leftovers before it breaks down and can feed a huge algae bloom. In your case, if you get the pH straightened out you might be able to use moderate coralline growth to compete against the fungus and help slowly reduce the amount of the fungus in your system.

That seems crazy, I know, but my hunch is that you aren't getting any coralline and probably very little other film type algae growth. That could be exacerbated by the fact that everything is covered with this fungus which undoubtedly has a defense mechanism to prevent getting easily crowded out by other species (so those good types of algaes don't have anywhere to settle and get a foothold). So... what I'm really proposing is a balancing act... which is really all any of our tanks are. Not all algae growth is bad and coralline is especially desirable because it prevents other nastier algaes (like hair algae and hopefully, for your case, this weird fungus) from being able to settle the substrate.

Edit: If you're blowing a fan in your window at night and not seeing an increase in pH relative to nights were you aren't (you need to test at the same time), the c02 in your house may not be the problem. I'd recommend the cup of water trick I talked about in my blog. Test your tank water in a cup, walk outside, stir the water really hard for a few minutes, then walk back inside and test the pH again. It would be even better if you could do it in the morning and at night. That will give you the best indication of how much you can expect your pH to rise as a result of outside aeration. In my case, it was a pretty stable .2 regardless of the time of day, which is fairly significant...

I am home so let me try and answer some of this.

Clean up crew does little to help the matter. I have a very small clean up crew as I haven't added any critters since I first set up my old tank. So my remaining snails are at least 4 years old. I would add more but they don't touch it and I have no other micro algae in the tank (yet).

No coraline except on rocks that had it to start with. None on the back glass, none anywhere. I always figured this was due to running T5's as I always read coraline likes lower intensity lighting. In the display tank their is no coraline whatsoever as I cooked those rocks and none remains on them.
 
To me it looks like the high SG is a likely culprit.
The whole pH thing tends to be given a little more weight than it deserves IMO. Everything/one says it needs to be around 8.2 etc.... but I've seen tanks that were very nice with pH's that stayed around 7.7 - 7.8. Much more important than pH IMO is alk/dKH.
I also see a lot of threads with people trying this and that to get their pH up and getting worried and spending a lot of time on it when sometimes they just can't get it to where they think it needs to be.
I guess what I'm trying to say is doesn't hurt to get you pH up a little bit but it isn't worth obsessing about and if you can keep it around 7.8 or so you should be fine. Some tanks just seem to run there:)
A SG of 1.030 will make things much more unhappy IMO.
my humble $0.02, Chris
 
That is weird you should get amazing Corraline growth with the T5s, It thrives on that lighting. My tank with only 4-80w T5s has it everywhere even grows on the front glass if I don't stay on top of it. Might need to seed your tank with some to get it started? I will be glad to give you some scrapings full of It If you like or a rock or two to put in your tank to get it started! Can't hurt!!!
 
A couple of tanks with low pH's (or considered out of the normal range):
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2009-03/totm/index.php
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2009-01/totm/index.php
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-09/totm/index.php
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-07/totm/index.php
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-03/totm/index.php
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-09/totm/index.php


All of these have pH's between 7.7 and 8.0 or so on the lower and upper ends and that's just going through the last couple of years of TOTM's.
Please also understand I am NOT trying to argue with Brian or anyone else:) I've just seen people pull their hair out about it before when it wasn't needed. Of course now you'll get your pH up to 8.4 Chris and that will fix everything:D

Chris
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14676816#post14676816 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fishdoc11
Please also understand I am NOT trying to argue with Brian or anyone else:) I've just seen people pull their hair out about it before when it wasn't needed. Of course now you'll get your pH up to 8.4 Chris and that will fix everything:D

No disrespect taken... your tank is way nicer than mine, so you deserve that right anyway :) but I also don't have enough ego to assume I know everything. I was just spilling out some thoughts that might not immediately be thought about.

My initial reaction was to the pH because of my own problems with it. I always tested in the evenings and my pH was always low but "acceptably low" (around 7.8ish). What I didn't realize until I had a controller that was monitoring my pH was that it was taking a dive at night to around 7.5 (even with a reverse cycled fuge... I assume it was a combo of tank lights off and 2 extra humans in the house all night that weren't there during the day).

Bringing in outside air immediately brought me up to 7.7 or higher at night and almost 8 during the day. In a matter of weeks I started seeing coral and coralline growth like I had never had before (anyone who ever saw the 90 I got from you knows well that I had almost 0 coralline growth after over a year of having the tank up). I also slowly wrestled back control of my hair algae problems. My hunch is that if his pH reading is 7.7 during the day, his readings are much lower at night... and the lowest pH I saw in any of those links is 7.7 ;)

The main point I was trying to make in my last post is illustrated in the 6th paragraph of this article (http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages/item.php?news=1521). Unfortunately the original publication that this article refers to is not free (I might be able to get it on network at Vanderbilt) but higher pH isn't going to hurt his fight against the fungus problem for sure :) Especially since my hunch that your coralline algae growth has been almost nil appears to be pretty accurate (although low alkalinity could cause that too).

As with most things in this hobby, it is almost certainly a combination of factors and it's all a matter of figuring out what works for a given set-up.
 
I have seen the pH as low as 7.59 at night so yeah there is a problem. I am going to start dripping limewater and see what happens.
 
This is basically why I pay more attention to a dKH and Ca++ than pH. From RHF's article:
The acceptable pH range for reef aquaria is an opinion rather than a clearly defined fact, and will certainly vary based on who is providing the opinion. This range may also be quite different from the "optimal" range. Justifying what is optimal, however, is much more problematic than that which is simply acceptable. As a goal, I'd suggest that the pH of natural seawater, about 8.2, is appropriate, but reef aquaria can clearly operate in a wider range of pH values. In my opinion, the pH range from 7.8 to 8.5 is an acceptable range for reef aquaria, with several caveats. These are:

That the alkalinity is at least 2.5 meq/L, and preferably higher at the lower end of this pH range. This statement is based partly on the fact that many reef aquaria operate quite effectively in the pH 7.8 to 8.0 range, but that most of the best examples of these types of tanks incorporate calcium carbonate/carbon dioxide reactors that, while tending to lower the pH, keep the carbonate alkalinity fairly high (at or above 3 meq/L.). In this case, any problems associated with calcification at these lower pH values may be offset by the higher alkalinity. Low pH primarily stresses calcifying organisms by making it harder for them to obtain sufficient carbonate to deposit skeletons. Raising the alkalinity mitigates this difficulty for reasons that are detailed later in this article.

That the calcium level is at least 400 ppm. Calcification becomes more difficult as the pH is lowered, and it also becomes more difficult as the calcium level is lowered. It would not be desirable to push all of the extremes of pH, alkalinity, and calcium at the same time. So if the pH is on the low side and cannot be easily changed (such as in an aquarium with a CaCO3/CO2 reactor), at least make sure that the calcium level is acceptable (~400-450 ppm). Likewise, one of the problems at higher pH (above 8.2, but getting progressively more problematic with each incremental rise) is the abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate, resulting in a drop in calcium and alkalinity, and the clogging of heaters and pump impellers. If the aquarium pH is 8.4 or higher (as often happens in a tank using limewater), then it is especially important that both the calcium and alkalinity levels are suitably maintained (that is, neither too low, inhibiting biological calcification, nor too high, causing excessive abiotic precipitation on equipment.

Chris
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14677961#post14677961 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CeeGee
I have seen the pH as low as 7.59 at night so yeah there is a problem. I am going to start dripping limewater and see what happens.

Glad to hear it Chris. You have a little more going on than just low PH and it does require attention. Low PH should not swing as much or as fast as yours does from what you have stated.
 
Hey Chris, After talking and testing yesterday I had another thought! What about trying a UV sterilizer to try and kill that stuff? That and the Algea killer in combination ? worth a try. Nice meeting you and your daughter too! Hope to see you at yours next weekend.
 
I agree with Chris. I stopped worrying about measuring pH a few years back. I used to stress out over pH but found that it had little bearing on the health of the inhabitants and fluctuated seasonally. Just keep things stable is my philosophy, dKH at 9.0 +0 -0.5 and Ca at about 425 and all is well (too well, in fact, things are quickly outgrowing their home).

I didn't check out your "fungus" thread but looked briefly at the pics. Are you sure it's not some form of hydroid?

Many Europeans hate refractometers for measuring salinity, believing they are not accurate and drift too much. I've never had much of a problem but do miss my conductivity meter. Not sure how you're measuring salinity, but 1.030 isn't too much higher than the Red Sea and parts of the Indian Ocean (1.027-1.028 in some locations).

Dave
 
I am blown away at the response of everyone. I am doing everything in my power to turn things around and hope to be on the right track one way or another soon.

Bill,

Great meeting you and Rhett yesterday. My daughter even had a good time! A UV sterilizer sounds great but I really don't want to pony up the cash for another piece of equipment that will end up sitting around. If someone had one I could borrow and try out I would give it a shot. My next equipment needs to be a colorometer so I can accurately measure phosphate and a nice skimmer instead of this ASM piece of junk and a auto top off of some sorts. It is looking more and more like a some new live rock may be in order as well.

cee,
I hear you man. The only thing is that the only parameters in my tank that have not been within acceptable levels are the pH and salinity. I use a refractometer and it was incorrectly calibrated it seems. pH has always run low. Too low it seems. I am now dripping limewater and it up over 8.0 for the first time. Hopefully dripping limewater will bring the stability I am seeking. It will help with alk & cal, bring pH up to acceptable levels and also help keep my salinity in check by dripping a constant stream of water to replace the evap. I evaporate a little over a gallon a day and this will surely help keep salinity a little more stable.

I hear you have a nice tank. I may need some corals in the future ;)

Oh yeah after the last two weeks of meeting people I just ponied up and joined MTRC!
 
Cee, I don't think what he has is Hydroids But whatever it is It's in several tanks in MTRC members tanks ( no names mentioned)
The thing that puzzles me is that It's minor in some and a major problem in others for no obvious reason!!! There has to be a common thread or reason It's showing up in different tanks that have no connection to each other. Any obvious connection anyway, I think the best thing to do is send a sample to have it analized to know what it is and go from there.
 
Have you tried the Algeafix, and is it doing anything? Also would Sunday be OK I have another problem on Saturday nedd to take care of. Havn't heard on the UV yet I'll let you know. Another reef club member MVK needs help also while I'm up that way, Do you know him?
 
Sunday will be fine. I am currently dosing the pimafix in the 10 gallon and I moved a frag plug into it. Nothing exciting happening yet.

I don't know MVK. Ihave only met you, Rhett, Andywe, and another guy that I can't remember his name as I am terrible with names. I am going to ask Andy what that guys name is because I feel bad for not remembering.

Edit:

Just came upstairs and took a look at the 10 gallon that the "fungus" covered frag plug is in. The fungus looks a little "weaker" than it normally does. I grabbed it and put it in front of the power head and lo and behold a $***load of that crap blew right off.

I don't want to jump the gun so I am just going to say this is looking promising. There is still a crapload of it on the plug but you are supposed to dose this stuff daily for a week at the minimum. Today is dose #2.

Knowing my luck this is how it goes into "hypereproduction" and it will take over the world. :)

:uzi: "Fungus"
 
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I'd say, if your pH is that low and you're dripping limewater to bring it up that you should watch that you aren't pushing your Ca off the chart over time.

I do think if you get your dKH up and keep it that way for a while it will naturally pull your pH out of the cellar and even if it doesn't get to "optimal" it will get into an acceptable range. You may find the stuff on your rocks will respond favorably to that. Honestly, I wouldn't get too crazy with trying to solve that problem until you have a system for keeping those other parameters stable and/or until you get a positive ID on what it is and maybe find a targeted method for reducing its growth rate...
 
I am checking calcium and alkalinity daily. Sometimes twice. The only negative I have seen thus far is that my Acans are not puffing up like normal. Does anyone know if they are overly sensitive to increases in dKH?
 
That sounds promising, Just dose the recomended amount and see what happens in a week or so. I think that all of the things combined will bring results, though they will take time! Keep up with water changes so you don't foul the tank with too much dead matter from it dying off. I had a feeling that it was some kind of Algea, not a Fungus. I'll check with you on Friday, Good Luck!
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14727265#post14727265 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CeeGee
Sunday will be fine. I am currently dosing the pimafix in the 10 gallon and I moved a frag plug into it. Nothing exciting happening yet.

I don't know MVK. Ihave only met you, Rhett, Andywe, and another guy that I can't remember his name as I am terrible with names. I am going to ask Andy what that guys name is because I feel bad for not remembering.

Edit:

Just came upstairs and took a look at the 10 gallon that the "fungus" covered frag plug is in. The fungus looks a little "weaker" than it normally does. I grabbed it and put it in front of the power head and lo and behold a $***load of that crap blew right off.

I don't want to jump the gun so I am just going to say this is looking promising. There is still a crapload of it on the plug but you are supposed to dose this stuff daily for a week at the minimum. Today is dose #2.

Knowing my luck this is how it goes into "hypereproduction" and it will take over the world. :)

:uzi: "Fungus"

Lol Chris. I hope the Pimafix does it for you.

That guys name is Jon, and his screen name here is TomStill.
 
I thought I remembered his name as John. I couldn't for the life of me remember what you said his screen name is. I am terrible with names. It is like when someone tells me their name my brain shuts off. That and when my wife talks. :)
 
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