Amoo's Nem Treatments
- Thread starter Amoo
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Reefahholic
New member
Roger that.
Amoo
Member
When I said I was prepping for war, I didn't think it would be that bad. As soon as I opened the bag with this guy I knew this was going to be an interesting two weeks. He was fully deflated and all shriveled up. Water temp was 71 degrees. The only thing I really have going for me is he wasn't bleached.
Here's a shot of him 10 hours after introduction:
He's barely sticking to the bottom of the tank with moderate flow on him, but he's not really responding too well at all. His mouth is gaping pretty bad and he's mostly deflated. He's in a 10g tank with 250mg of Cipro. Tank temp is being maintained at 79F.
I changed the water at the 8 hour mark hoping to perk him up a little bit, but to no avail so far. I'm using the Par 38 14000K Full Spectrum Dimmable Reef Light (Coral Compulsion). He was given 4 hours of light today, but as his condition stayed poor I decided to go straight to meds instead of giving him more light. I would give him a severity score of 8/10.
Here's a shot of him 10 hours after introduction:
He's barely sticking to the bottom of the tank with moderate flow on him, but he's not really responding too well at all. His mouth is gaping pretty bad and he's mostly deflated. He's in a 10g tank with 250mg of Cipro. Tank temp is being maintained at 79F.
I changed the water at the 8 hour mark hoping to perk him up a little bit, but to no avail so far. I'm using the Par 38 14000K Full Spectrum Dimmable Reef Light (Coral Compulsion). He was given 4 hours of light today, but as his condition stayed poor I decided to go straight to meds instead of giving him more light. I would give him a severity score of 8/10.
Amoo
Member
As of yesterday he was still deflating. Increased Cipro dosage up to 500mg/10gal. All else is still the same. Did his water change today, still continues to inflate and deflate with attachment not lasting longer then 45 minutes or so. I've decreased flow in the tank to try to help him settle in more, but still deflating after this many days is worrying. I'll grab an updated pic tomorrow.
Amoo
Member
Everyday he's received a water change with the increased Cipro dose of 500mg/10g. Here's a picture of his current status, not bleached, still partially deflating. I'm going to taper the Cipro and start adding the SMZ&TP and see if the switch livens him up. The next few days he will receive 250mg of Cipro and 400mg/80mg of SMZ&TP.
Lights were off during picture so everything looks really dark.
Other random notes:
Still has not attached but seems to be spending more time right side up.
Still receiving a 12 hour light schedule with manual dimmer.
Flow in the tank has been reduced significantly do to behavior.
Has been releasing what appears to be sperm into the water column daily within minutes of medicine introduction.
Lights were off during picture so everything looks really dark.
Other random notes:
Still has not attached but seems to be spending more time right side up.
Still receiving a 12 hour light schedule with manual dimmer.
Flow in the tank has been reduced significantly do to behavior.
Has been releasing what appears to be sperm into the water column daily within minutes of medicine introduction.
Last edited:
Amoo
Member
10-4
Amoo's Sick Nem Treatment Protocol:
Let me start by saying most of my research wouldn't exist without what OrionN (Mihn) started on Reefcentral.com years ago. Most all of my treatments have been done on H. Mag and BTAs so my experience applies in different areas. For the sake of this treatment I am only going to go over how I treat H. Mags from the time they arrive until they hopefully go into a DT. I've had good luck with not bleaching my nems and getting most of them to survive.
Medications:
While I am experimenting with other medications, the only drugs I am comfortable recommending at this point are the same basic ones Mihn uses. I get 500mg Ciprofloxacin (Cipro) tablets and 400mg/80mg Sulfamethoxazole and Trimethoprim (SMZ & TP) tablets. Individual dosing will be explained below.
Arrival:
Upon arrival of the Nem I immediately float the Nem bag, to acclimate it to tank temperature. This is done for 30 minutes. A clean 5 gallon bucket is then used and the contents of the bag are placed in the bucket. At this point I visually inspect the Nem for signs of damage and immediately give it a condition score. (I will explain the scoring system at the end of this article.) 9 times out of 10 I will drip acclimate the Nem for about 30-45 minutes before placing it in quarantine tank (QT). There have been times I have had a Nem arrive in such bad shape and water that I have immediately moved it to QT without drip acclimation. Note: This is not the preferred method, but as I buy almost all of my specimen from the same vendor I know what water params to setup my QT for (I still double check to ensure).
QT Setup:
My QT setup is slightly different then Mihn's so I will go into detail about it here. I choose to use a two tank approach. I believe in using two tanks because it allows me to fully clean EVERYTHING in the tank. As I am working with a smaller species I can afford to get away with two 10g tanks. Both tanks are equipped with a divider, heater (79F), power-head, fresh salt water, a coffee mug AND a cycled bio-wheel HOB filter. There is a full spectrum light (Par 38 14000K Full Spectrum Dimmable Reef Light (Coral Compulsion))with a manual dimmer hanging 12" above one tank at a time (I manually move it when I move the nem). Remember this is still a QT tank until we begin treatment.
My first order of business is to slowly begin light acclimating (12 hours with 10 hours of full light) the Nem and observe it. I will not start treatment for a minimum of 6-8 hours on a freshly shipped Nem. I first allow it time to adjust to the new tank conditions and lighting. If it has not shown any signs of improvement (scoring system) I will then begin treatment. Usually there is some improvement and I will give the Nem until the first lights out period to see if it continues to improve. Typically anything above a 5 and I start treatment after 6-8 hours. Anything below I let it ride until "sundown". Once I make the decision to start treatment (Tx), it immediately becomes lights out, I remove the Bio-wheel HOB and dose 250mg/10Gal of Cipro. I then give a strict 12 hours until further action is taken.
Treatment:
IMPORTANT: At the same time I dose the occupied tank with 250mg/10gal of Cipro I dose the second "empty" tank with Cipro as well.
After the first 12 hour, medicated lights out treatment, I immediately move the Nem to the second tank which already had it's HOB removed before dosing. I move the clamp light and begin it's light therapy for the day. At this point I tear down the first tank, take all components outside to clean and dry. Once dry, I bring everything back in and fill the tank with fresh SW and all of it's gadgets. Once it's time for complete lights out, I move the Nem again to this fresh tank and dose 250mg/10gal of Cipro, only to this tank this time.
Note: I feel the 12 hour water changes are important for the first day and a half, beyond that I allow a nem to remain in the same tank for 24 hours unless the tank becomes extremely cloudy.
Once through that first day, I have my second tank setup and ready to go by lights out and move the Nem over for his nightly Cipro dose. Prior to moving him is when I score him for the day. I maintain a 250mg/10gal dose of Cipro for the first 3 lights out periods regardless of score.
Increasing Dosage or Changing Medications:
After 3 lights out periods I check my pictures and scores and determine if my current treatment appears to be working. If he has come down 2-3 points from where he started, I continue on the same path. If he has not shown improvement or his score has increased I change my dosage. My first line of action is to increase the daily Cipro dosage to 500mg/10gal. This is again done for 3 lights out periods.
After three lights out periods I assess my pictures and notes and determine where to go from there. If things are improving I back off on my Cipro dose, back down to 250mg. If things are not improving, I still back down on my Cipro dose to 250mg but also add 400mg/80mg of SMZ & TP. Things are again maintained for 3 lights out periods.
If you're still reading, things aren't going well and it's probably decision time. Hopefully by this point your nem is close to a 2-3 at worst, but if it's still above 5 and hasn't shown significant improvement it's time to start really hitting it hard. If things are still bad I will double my dose of both Cipro to 500mg/10gal and SMZ & TP to 800mg/160mg. I do this for 3 lights out periods. Anything beyond this point with the Nem not improving significantly is still experimental and not something I'm ready to recommend yet.
Amoo's Severity Scoring System:
0 - Healthy Nem
1 - Tentacles shortened, still fully deflated, mouth tight, responsive to touch
2 - Tentacles shortened, still fully deflated, mouth slightly droopy, responsive to touch
3 - Tentacles shortened, still fully deflated, mouth slightly open, responsive to touch
4 - Tentacles shortened, still fully deflated, mouth open, responsive to touch
5 - Tentacles shortened, still fully deflated, mouth gaping open with insides exposed, responsive to touch
6 - Tentacles shortened, partially deflates, mouth gaping open with insides exposed, responsive to touch
7 - Tentacles shortened, inflates and deflates multiple times daily, mouth gaping open with insides exposed, responsive to touch
8 - Tentacles shortened, most always deflated, mouth gaping open with insides exposed, responsive to touch
9 - Tentacles shortened, always deflated, mouth gaping open with insides exposed, barely responsive to touch
10 - Tentacles shortened, always deflated, mouth gaping open with insides exposed, non-responsive to touch
11 - Mush (Sorry
)
Amoo's Sick Nem Treatment Protocol:
Let me start by saying most of my research wouldn't exist without what OrionN (Mihn) started on Reefcentral.com years ago. Most all of my treatments have been done on H. Mag and BTAs so my experience applies in different areas. For the sake of this treatment I am only going to go over how I treat H. Mags from the time they arrive until they hopefully go into a DT. I've had good luck with not bleaching my nems and getting most of them to survive.
Medications:
While I am experimenting with other medications, the only drugs I am comfortable recommending at this point are the same basic ones Mihn uses. I get 500mg Ciprofloxacin (Cipro) tablets and 400mg/80mg Sulfamethoxazole and Trimethoprim (SMZ & TP) tablets. Individual dosing will be explained below.
Arrival:
Upon arrival of the Nem I immediately float the Nem bag, to acclimate it to tank temperature. This is done for 30 minutes. A clean 5 gallon bucket is then used and the contents of the bag are placed in the bucket. At this point I visually inspect the Nem for signs of damage and immediately give it a condition score. (I will explain the scoring system at the end of this article.) 9 times out of 10 I will drip acclimate the Nem for about 30-45 minutes before placing it in quarantine tank (QT). There have been times I have had a Nem arrive in such bad shape and water that I have immediately moved it to QT without drip acclimation. Note: This is not the preferred method, but as I buy almost all of my specimen from the same vendor I know what water params to setup my QT for (I still double check to ensure).
QT Setup:
My QT setup is slightly different then Mihn's so I will go into detail about it here. I choose to use a two tank approach. I believe in using two tanks because it allows me to fully clean EVERYTHING in the tank. As I am working with a smaller species I can afford to get away with two 10g tanks. Both tanks are equipped with a divider, heater (79F), power-head, fresh salt water, a coffee mug AND a cycled bio-wheel HOB filter. There is a full spectrum light (Par 38 14000K Full Spectrum Dimmable Reef Light (Coral Compulsion))with a manual dimmer hanging 12" above one tank at a time (I manually move it when I move the nem). Remember this is still a QT tank until we begin treatment.
My first order of business is to slowly begin light acclimating (12 hours with 10 hours of full light) the Nem and observe it. I will not start treatment for a minimum of 6-8 hours on a freshly shipped Nem. I first allow it time to adjust to the new tank conditions and lighting. If it has not shown any signs of improvement (scoring system) I will then begin treatment. Usually there is some improvement and I will give the Nem until the first lights out period to see if it continues to improve. Typically anything above a 5 and I start treatment after 6-8 hours. Anything below I let it ride until "sundown". Once I make the decision to start treatment (Tx), it immediately becomes lights out, I remove the Bio-wheel HOB and dose 250mg/10Gal of Cipro. I then give a strict 12 hours until further action is taken.
Treatment:
IMPORTANT: At the same time I dose the occupied tank with 250mg/10gal of Cipro I dose the second "empty" tank with Cipro as well.
After the first 12 hour, medicated lights out treatment, I immediately move the Nem to the second tank which already had it's HOB removed before dosing. I move the clamp light and begin it's light therapy for the day. At this point I tear down the first tank, take all components outside to clean and dry. Once dry, I bring everything back in and fill the tank with fresh SW and all of it's gadgets. Once it's time for complete lights out, I move the Nem again to this fresh tank and dose 250mg/10gal of Cipro, only to this tank this time.
Note: I feel the 12 hour water changes are important for the first day and a half, beyond that I allow a nem to remain in the same tank for 24 hours unless the tank becomes extremely cloudy.
Once through that first day, I have my second tank setup and ready to go by lights out and move the Nem over for his nightly Cipro dose. Prior to moving him is when I score him for the day. I maintain a 250mg/10gal dose of Cipro for the first 3 lights out periods regardless of score.
Increasing Dosage or Changing Medications:
After 3 lights out periods I check my pictures and scores and determine if my current treatment appears to be working. If he has come down 2-3 points from where he started, I continue on the same path. If he has not shown improvement or his score has increased I change my dosage. My first line of action is to increase the daily Cipro dosage to 500mg/10gal. This is again done for 3 lights out periods.
After three lights out periods I assess my pictures and notes and determine where to go from there. If things are improving I back off on my Cipro dose, back down to 250mg. If things are not improving, I still back down on my Cipro dose to 250mg but also add 400mg/80mg of SMZ & TP. Things are again maintained for 3 lights out periods.
If you're still reading, things aren't going well and it's probably decision time. Hopefully by this point your nem is close to a 2-3 at worst, but if it's still above 5 and hasn't shown significant improvement it's time to start really hitting it hard. If things are still bad I will double my dose of both Cipro to 500mg/10gal and SMZ & TP to 800mg/160mg. I do this for 3 lights out periods. Anything beyond this point with the Nem not improving significantly is still experimental and not something I'm ready to recommend yet.
Amoo's Severity Scoring System:
0 - Healthy Nem
1 - Tentacles shortened, still fully deflated, mouth tight, responsive to touch
2 - Tentacles shortened, still fully deflated, mouth slightly droopy, responsive to touch
3 - Tentacles shortened, still fully deflated, mouth slightly open, responsive to touch
4 - Tentacles shortened, still fully deflated, mouth open, responsive to touch
5 - Tentacles shortened, still fully deflated, mouth gaping open with insides exposed, responsive to touch
6 - Tentacles shortened, partially deflates, mouth gaping open with insides exposed, responsive to touch
7 - Tentacles shortened, inflates and deflates multiple times daily, mouth gaping open with insides exposed, responsive to touch
8 - Tentacles shortened, most always deflated, mouth gaping open with insides exposed, responsive to touch
9 - Tentacles shortened, always deflated, mouth gaping open with insides exposed, barely responsive to touch
10 - Tentacles shortened, always deflated, mouth gaping open with insides exposed, non-responsive to touch
11 - Mush (Sorry
)
Last edited:
Amoo
Member
Minh caught an oops in my scoring system, thanks buddy, definitely a 12am typo on my part. Here's the corrected version.
Amoo's Severity Scoring System:
0 - Healthy Nem
1 - Tentacles shortened, still fully inflated, mouth tight, responsive to touch
2 - Tentacles shortened, still fully inflated, mouth slightly droopy, responsive to touch
3 - Tentacles shortened, still fully inflated, mouth slightly open, responsive to touch
4 - Tentacles shortened, still fully inflated, mouth open, responsive to touch
5 - Tentacles shortened, still fully inflated, mouth gaping open with insides exposed, responsive to touch
6 - Tentacles shortened, partially inflates, mouth gaping open with insides exposed, responsive to touch
7 - Tentacles shortened, inflates and deflates multiple times daily, mouth gaping open with insides exposed, responsive to touch
8 - Tentacles shortened, most always deflated, mouth gaping open with insides exposed, responsive to touch
9 - Tentacles shortened, always deflated, mouth gaping open with insides exposed, barely responsive to touch
10 - Tentacles shortened, always deflated, mouth gaping open with insides exposed, non-responsive to touch
11 - Mush (Sorry )
Amoo's Severity Scoring System:
0 - Healthy Nem
1 - Tentacles shortened, still fully inflated, mouth tight, responsive to touch
2 - Tentacles shortened, still fully inflated, mouth slightly droopy, responsive to touch
3 - Tentacles shortened, still fully inflated, mouth slightly open, responsive to touch
4 - Tentacles shortened, still fully inflated, mouth open, responsive to touch
5 - Tentacles shortened, still fully inflated, mouth gaping open with insides exposed, responsive to touch
6 - Tentacles shortened, partially inflates, mouth gaping open with insides exposed, responsive to touch
7 - Tentacles shortened, inflates and deflates multiple times daily, mouth gaping open with insides exposed, responsive to touch
8 - Tentacles shortened, most always deflated, mouth gaping open with insides exposed, responsive to touch
9 - Tentacles shortened, always deflated, mouth gaping open with insides exposed, barely responsive to touch
10 - Tentacles shortened, always deflated, mouth gaping open with insides exposed, non-responsive to touch
11 - Mush (Sorry )
Amoo
Member
Glad you asked Minh, I was going to post update yesterday and change his severity score, but wanted to wait and be sure. Since moving to 250mg of Cipro and 400mg/80mg of SMZ & TP he hasn't deflated once and is showing signs of steady progression. I'm going to hold this dose for another couple of days, but as things stand right now he is in MUCH better shape then where he was 2 days ago. I'm changing his severity score to 5.5 and as you can see from the accompanying picture he is doing much better. Don't want to get too excited yet, but it's looking like I won't have a need for experimental drugs on this one.
On a side note, I picked this guy up off of DD today
On a side note, I picked this guy up off of DD today
Amoo
Member
Quick update, about to run out for some errands. Greeny has been in DT since just before sunrise and is doing well. My female Picasso has already moved into him and she now moves back and forth between him and the giant from the first post above (I've been feeding him well ). The purple currently in treatment is doing very well BUT, and it's a big but. I appear to have finally discovered the root of our problems with this guy and it's not good.
Now that he has been staying inflated I have been able to give him a very good once over. He still will not attach his entire foot and it has been very puzzling to me. He has a discolored spot on his pedal on the side he will not attach which appears to be some type of damage. It looks almost like he was stretched too hard trying to remove him from a tank. He's not showing any tentacle damage so I don't suspect powerhead damage, but I have physically seen him attach half of his foot and twist his body 3 times trying to hang on while unable to attach the other half of his foot. I will post some pictures later when I get home. I've also shot an email over to Kevin at DD to see if he has any ideas.
). The purple currently in treatment is doing very well BUT, and it's a big but. I appear to have finally discovered the root of our problems with this guy and it's not good.Now that he has been staying inflated I have been able to give him a very good once over. He still will not attach his entire foot and it has been very puzzling to me. He has a discolored spot on his pedal on the side he will not attach which appears to be some type of damage. It looks almost like he was stretched too hard trying to remove him from a tank. He's not showing any tentacle damage so I don't suspect powerhead damage, but I have physically seen him attach half of his foot and twist his body 3 times trying to hang on while unable to attach the other half of his foot. I will post some pictures later when I get home. I've also shot an email over to Kevin at DD to see if he has any ideas.
addictedreefer
New member
Any update?
Amoo
Member
I've been talking back and forth with Kevin at DD, I'll get an update up in a few days. It's still alive, but will still only partially attach. Keeping him alive in a QT was proving futile as he needed more turnover but couldn't handle the flow so I have moved him into a low flow area of one of my sumps.
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